Pilot Shortage Deepens, USAF is SCREWED.

[SCRIMP]

I think the argument is that if the army can train dudes with no FW flight experience and make them effective helo guys, the Air Force can too, saving FW resources (especially with the shortage of T6 sorties right now) in that process. Why does a helo guy need fixed wing time if he will stay helos his whole career? What’s the added value? I’m just playing devils advocate. I think all mil pilots, including army guys, should start in airplanes, then go to helos. But plenty of people disagree and my opinion matters not. 
Edit: obviously the pipeline would have to be thought out and thorough, and I have no knowledge of what UPT-H was going to consist of, so can't comment there. 

The problem is that the UPT-H program would not be equivalent to even the baseline Army program. Additionally, the HH community operates in a significantly more difficult operating environment then most slick hawk drivers deal with in the army. We have had W2s come over and struggle in the HH. We have also had them be extremely successful.

Either way, the proposed UPT-H plan was not sufficient to prepare HH crews for CSAR.

[Fuzz]

5 hours ago, dream big said:

No, Dyess.  Problem is this resiliency push is coming from HQ AMC and higher.  They want people to make posters for the event.  Flying squadron DO said his poster will be #getthefbacktowork.  

Under the new wing leadership our Sq leadership has had to fight many battles..they have to pick and chose which ones are worth fighting.  I’m guessing a day wasted is not a battle worth fighting, but still worthy sport b*tching about!

That’s a shame, your wing king used to be our OG and worked to keep things mission focused. Didn’t always agree with the ways he approached things but he held a high bar in expectations and regularly fought 18AF & AMC BS.

[HeloDude]

On March 23, 2018 at 11:15 AM, SCRIMP said:

So your logic is that because a fully qualified/seasoned Army RW Pilot can cross over means that a brand new nugget off the street can make the same transition?

No--my logic is that the AF did for decades and it worked out just fine.  Or do you know something I don't?

[WheelsOff]

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

That’s a shame, your wing king used to be our OG and worked to keep things mission focused. Didn’t always agree with the ways he approached things but he held a high bar in expectations and regularly fought 18AF & AMC BS.

I’m gonna disagree with you on this one. When giving my buddy and three others their OG cert for IP, he threatened to downgrade them back to AC if they didn’t keep up with all the paperwork on local sorties. Not a bro...far from it in fact. My condolences to anyone that falls under the purview of his leadership. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by WheelsOff

[SCRIMP]

No--my logic is that the AF did for decades and it worked out just fine.  Or do you know something I don't?

I can’t speak about how UPT was done in the 90s and prior. I do know that just because we used lead paint and asbestos in those decades doesn’t make it right. UPT-H and segregated UPT flights are two things that can remain in the past.

Helo guys going to T-6s starts the building block to a lifetime of integration with the rest of the CAF.

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, SCRIMP said:

I can’t speak about how UPT was done in the 90s and prior. I do know that just because we used lead paint and asbestos in those decades doesn’t make it right. UPT-H and segregated UPT flights are two things that can remain in the past.

Helo guys going to T-6s starts the building block to a lifetime of integration with the rest of the CAF.

I appreciate you admitting that you don't know what you're talking about with regards to this issue.  The reason for the change in the mid-90s was to rationalize the cost of the new T-6 acquisition during the drawdown of the 90s:  More students needed during FW phase 2 without increasing the overall quantity of pilot graduates per year. 

[norskman]

6 hours ago, SCRIMP said:

Additionally, the HH community operates in a significantly more difficult operating environment then most slick hawk drivers deal with in the army. We have had W2s come over and struggle in the HH. We have also had them be extremely successful.

Either way, the proposed UPT-H plan was not sufficient to prepare HH crews for CSAR.

Gotta disagree with you on this one brother. Sure there's a few (1 or 2 that I have heard) weaker swimmers from the Army in Rescue, but the USAF -60 community specifically makes things more complicated than it needs to be operationally speaking.  Molehills are often morphed into mountains in Rescue. CSAR is a time based problem.  When we integrate with the CAF, it prolongs the availible solutions. IMHO Being ACC has conditioned us negatively in many ways. I digress.....

 

Back on topic, You gotta remember that  a large portion of the early WIC community were prior Warrants and some are still in key leadership positions.  I currently fly with 5 prior Army bubbas, 3 being prior warrants. All  great pilots/dudes and are all very grounded and compotent. 

I do agree with you that we should train in the T-6 for a multitude of other reasons, foremost being the commonality of foundational airmanship with our FW bros. 

[Danger41]

3 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

I’m gonna disagree with you on this one. When giving my buddy and three others their OG cert for IP, he threatened to downgrade them back to AC if they didn’t keep up with all the paperwork on local sorties. Not a bro...far from it in fact. My condolences to anyone that falls under the purview of his leadership. 

Don’t know the guy at all so I’m not going to argue his rating on the brocrometer, but if your buddy and 3 other dudes get butthurt because the dude responsible for all the flying on the base tells 4 IP’s that they need to be professional aviators and do things correctly, then I don’t know if they are ready to be IP’s.

[SCRIMP]

Gotta disagree with you on this one brother. Sure there's a few (1 or 2 that I have heard) weaker swimmers from the Army in Rescue, but the USAF -60 community specifically makes things more complicated than it needs to be operationally speaking.  Molehills are often morphed into mountains in Rescue. CSAR is a time based problem.  When we integrate with the CAF, it prolongs the availible solutions. IMHO Being ACC has conditioned us negatively in many ways. I digress.....
 
Back on topic, You gotta remember that  a large portion of the early WIC community were prior Warrants and some are still in key leadership positions.  I currently fly with 5 prior Army bubbas, 3 being prior warrants. All  great pilots/dudes and are all very grounded and compotent. 
I do agree with you that we should train in the T-6 for a multitude of other reasons, foremost being the commonality of foundational airmanship with our FW bros. 

Yea man. Definitely not my intent. Far more good than bad and I’m friends with all the OG patches. I also agree with your comments on ACC.

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

Don’t know the guy at all so I’m not going to argue his rating on the brocrometer, but if your buddy and 3 other dudes get butthurt because the dude responsible for all the flying on the base tells 4 IP’s that they need to be professional aviators and do things correctly, then I don’t know if they are ready to be IP’s.

Sounds like those 4 IPs are some serious SNAPs 

 

[gearhog]

5 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Don’t know the guy at all so I’m not going to argue his rating on the brocrometer, but if your buddy and 3 other dudes get butthurt because the dude responsible for all the flying on the base tells 4 IP’s that they need to be professional aviators and do things correctly, then I don’t know if they are ready to be IP’s.

Threatening to downgrade an IP to an AC before they've even been cert'd as an IP for crimes that have not yet been committed counts as professionalism?

If you're going to threaten me with less responsibility, less paperwork, and the exact same amount of pay for not being able to overcome broken processes (i.e. GTIMS), forgive me if I smile and shrug. The value of an IP cert on an airline app is declining rapidly.

[ClearedHot]

2 hours ago, torqued said:

Threatening to downgrade an IP to an AC before they've even been cert'd as an IP for crimes that have not yet been committed counts as professionalism?

If you're going to threaten me with less responsibility, less paperwork, and the exact same amount of pay for not being able to overcome broken processes (i.e. GTIMS), forgive me if I smile and shrug. The value of an IP cert on an airline app is declining rapidly.

[tac airlifter]

3 hours ago, torqued said:

Threatening to downgrade an IP to an AC before they've even been cert'd as an IP for crimes that have not yet been committed counts as professionalism?

If you're going to threaten me with less responsibility, less paperwork, and the exact same amount of pay for not being able to overcome broken processes (i.e. GTIMS), forgive me if I smile and shrug. The value of an IP cert on an airline app is declining rapidly.

This is why not every AC should be an IP and the expectation that all pilots should naturally progress to IP must be broken.  A commander telling IP candidates, during cert, to be be vigilant with all aspects of this upgrade (including paperwork) or the upgrade will be revoked is good.  It sets expectations and priorities.  As the IP on tomorrows mission I appreciate a timely and well written grade sheet; it helps me help the student.

That anyone takes this statement as a threat says more about themselves than the speaker.  My advice, and I mean this kindly and professionally, is not to add emotion or insinuate intent onto words.  Just take words for what they are.

[Hacker]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:16 AM, HeloDude said:

And the AF also didn't bring in quite a few Army RW pilots in the 90s that ended up doing just fine.

If by "just fine" you mean they had an unusually high washout rate at IFF -- so much so that Guard fighter units pretty much stopped trying to bring them in for the subsequent decade or so -- then, yeah.

[gearhog]

3 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

This is why not every AC should be an IP and the expectation that all pilots should naturally progress to IP must be broken.  A commander telling IP candidates, during cert, to be be vigilant with all aspects of this upgrade (including paperwork) or the upgrade will be revoked is good.  It sets expectations and priorities.  As the IP on tomorrows mission I appreciate a timely and well written grade sheet; it helps me help the student.

That anyone takes this statement as a threat says more about themselves than the speaker.  My advice, and I mean this kindly and professionally, is not to add emotion or insinuate intent onto words.  Just take words for what they are.

Well, none of us were there so we're left to infer the context and tone with which the threat was made. The simple fact that a threat was made doesn't seem to be in doubt. Where did you read this guy merely told them to "be vigilant"? That's not what was written nor what I read. I will agree with you: not everyone should be an IP. However, having been an IP since 2004, I certainly understand the frustration that comes from being blamed for increasingly complex and broken process that an IP has no control over.

If another IP's gradesheet is overdue because he's been flying an ad-hoc schedule for several 12 hour days because they can't find anyone else to get a dozen crewmembers current before they leave for deployment next week while the network is down, don't expect me to wring my hands in worry that you'll take my cert away. I'm also not going to bag on the guy because he went home for dinner instead of writing me an essay in GTIMS. 

An OG threatening me for his performance makes me think he's completely out of touch and expects all his IP have a predisposition for fcuking up. People tend to live up to or down to the expectations set for them. You are correct in saying a CC should set clear positive expectations and priorities. You are incorrect in saying a CC should set clear expectations, priorities, and make threats, especially over "paperwork". As an OG, If someone didn't do a gradesheet, you ask your SQ/CC to talk directly to that person. You don't personally threaten all the other IPs with being decertified.

That type of leadership style has been rode hard the last few years. If you think it's an acceptable one, let's have a look at the situation we presently find ourselves in.

Edited March 25, 2018 by torqued

[HeloDude]

55 minutes ago, Hacker said:

If by "just fine" you mean they had an unusually high washout rate at IFF -- so much so that Guard fighter units pretty much stopped trying to bring them in for the subsequent decade or so -- then, yeah.

Since when do Army RW pilots coming over to be AF RW pilots go through IFF? This post was concerning UPT-H...

[Hacker]

Just now, HeloDude said:

Since when do Army RW pilots coming over to be AF RW pilots go through IFF? This post was concerning UPT-H...

I was referring to the Army helo dudes who were recruited to come through AF fixed wing qual and IFF to go out and fly in AF units.  There was a big batch in the 2004-2006 timeframe, with many going to ANG units but some headed to AD units.

I thought that's what you were referring to when you said, "the AF also didn't bring in quite a few Army RW pilots..."

If not, my bad.  I'll STFU then.

[Flaco]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I grew up with fear, sarcasm, and ridicule as a tactic used by my IPs, the leadership, and the rest of the institution. It worked well, and I didn't complain.

The ops tempo was reasonable, I was flying 20 sorties a month, and push-it-up, fun TDYs were plentiful. I had never heard of a CBT, SAPR, Green Dot, and there was no airline opportunity.

Let me suggest that that era is gone. What this "special snowflake" is trying to say is that the Air Force doesn't have the cards to play the dickhead commander routine any longer. It's a bluff.

The snowflake is gonna bail to the airlines at his first opportunity while the commander keeps wondering why he's losing pilots.

Adapt, or die. The ball is in the Air Force's court.

[Chuck17]

53 minutes ago, Flaco said:

I grew up with fear, sarcasm, and ridicule as a tactic used by my IPs, the leadership, and the rest of the institution. It worked well, and I didn't complain.

The ops tempo was reasonable, I was flying 20 sorties a month, and push-it-up, fun TDYs were plentiful. I had never heard of a CBT, SAPR, Green Dot, and there was no airline opportunity.

Let me suggest that that era is gone. What this "special snowflake" is trying to say is that the Air Force doesn't have the cards to play the dickhead commander routine any longer. It's a bluff.

The snowflake is gonna bail to the airlines at his first opportunity while the commander keeps wondering why he's losing pilots.

Adapt, or die. The ball is in the Air Force's court.

So... if they’re going to be lost anyway, you make an interesting case for longer commitments and less bonus money...

Yeesh.

Chuck

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, torqued said:

I'd love to hear a retired Colonel's argument, in his thread about the AF pilot shortage, as to why snowflakes (like me) shouldn't identify poor AF leadership or recognize a young IP's value to, and outside of, the AF.

Just kidding.

No I wouldn't.

What you identify as poor leadership is actually someone asking you as an IP to be a fucking adult, sorry that is so difficult for you.  Enjoy the airlines, I am sure you "me only" attitude will serve you quite well in the interview process.

For the record I retired to get away from caustic leadership and a broken system,  I think most of the people that served with me (some on here), know I was not into the you should be ridiculed because I was ridiculed routine, but getting offended because someone asks you to make sure you training paperwork is squared away...dear god, get the sand out of your vagina.

[dream big]

17 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

What you identify as poor leadership is actually someone asking you as an IP to be a fucking adult, sorry that is so difficult for you.  Enjoy the airlines, I am sure you "me only" attitude will serve you quite well in the interview process.

For the record I retired to get away from caustic leadership and a broken system,  I think most of the people that served with me (some on here), know I was not into the you should be ridiculed because I was ridiculed routine, but getting offended because someone asks you to make sure you training paperwork is squared away...dear god, get the sand out of your vagina.

I agree with you that asking someone to do their job as an IP is not unreasonable; that was not a good example of said 06’s shitty leadership - there are numerous other examples that everyone can identify with that constitute the very caustic leadership that drove you out: for example, said 06 lecturing the DOs that this #unity march takes precedence over all and any mission planning for the day.  Can we all agree that this is a valid criticism of today’s 06+ leadership force and one of the reasons that drive good dudes out?

[Flaco]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

What you identify as poor leadership is actually someone asking you as an IP to be a ing adult, sorry that is so difficult for you.  Enjoy the airlines, I am sure you "me only" attitude will serve you quite well in the interview process.

For the record I retired to get away from caustic leadership and a broken system,  I think most of the people that served with me (some on here), know I was not into the you should be ridiculed because I was ridiculed routine, but getting offended because someone asks you to make sure you training paperwork is squared away...dear god, get the sand out of your ######.

If I'm reading correctly, the commander didn't ask them to do their jobs correctly. He threatened to revoke their IP status if they didn't do the job correctly, before any of them had actually screwed up.

Does your chief pilot at the airlines proactively threaten you with punitive action? 

The supply and demand curves have shifted and the Air Force is losing the competition for talent. Commanders in need to think counterintuitively. If a commander actually cares about retaining people, the only way to do that is to ask, nicely. Even then, it is likely that macro forces outside of his control will dictate that a large number of pilots still leave. But maybe, just maybe, he can appeal to the best in his pilots and keep an additional one or two of them around that would have otherwise left.

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Flaco

[ClearedHot]

1 minute ago, dream big said:

I agree with you that asking someone to do their job as an IP is not unreasonable; that was not a good example of said 06’s shitty leadership - there are numerous other examples that everyone can identify with that constitute the very caustic leadership that drove you out: for example, said 06 lecturing the DOs that this #unity march takes precedence over all and any mission planning for the day.  Can we all agree that this is a valid criticism of today’s 06+ leadership force and one of the reasons that drive good dudes out?

Amen...Unity march, Everyone is a Warrior, punishing the entire base when one jackwagon gets a DUI, and sycophantic senior leaders with closets full of skeletons who serve only themselves...those are the reasons I got out. 

Also, for the the record I don;t think anyone needs a reason to get out.  As an O-6 I spoke with multiple folks who were on the fence and the first thing I always said was  "Thanks for your service, you are part of the 1% that raised your hand to serve and if you think getting out is the best thing for you and you family, godspeed, grateful you gave us the time you did."

[Flaco]

45 minutes ago, Chuck17 said:

So... if they’re going to be lost anyway, you make an interesting case for longer commitments and less bonus money...

Yeesh.

Chuck

Chuck,

The cynical side of me says the Air Force has already figured this out and has given up on retention. They will try to produce their way out of the hole. Pencil whip IP status, green up the slides. It's just going to be a much younger man's game. The machine will continue to function.

[WheelsOff]

6 minutes ago, Flaco said:

If I'm reading correctly, the commander didn't ask them to do their jobs correctly. He threatened to revoke their IP status if they didn't do the job correctly, before any of them had actually screwed up.

^This. Exactly this. It was a threat that was made before anyone screwed the pooch.

As to ClearedHot’s point, I also have no problem with setting the expectation to be an adult and do your job correctly. I would expect a leader to reiterate that fact. But, let’s not mince words or try to infer too much into what you think the OG said (especially since I stated exactly what he said)...the point of the post was purely to point out that he made an unwarranted threat before any foul play or shirking of responsibility had occurred. That’s not how you inspire trust in your subordinates or earn their respect.