Air Force allows beards & turbans and such

[filthy_liar]

Has anyone seen folks wearing beards and turbans?  If so, how are folks in the squadrons reacting?

I've been out for 4 years...kinda glad I didn't have to deal with this.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/02/11/air-force-officially-oks-beards-turbans-hijabs-for-religious-reasons/?utm_expid=.jFR93cgdTFyMrWXdYEtvgA.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

[Tank]

I haven’t seen this personally but I honestly don’t know why people (especially retirees) have such a problem with this.  
I know the military is different but Freedom of Religion is protected under the First Amendment.  These are some of the questions that should be asked about these people:

 

Are they loyal to the USAF and the USA?

Are they hard workers?

Are they doing the job to the best of their ability?

 

If the answers are yes, then I don’t have a problem with them wearing turbans or having beards.

——————————————————————

Also, beards DO NOT affect the seal on a gas mask or O2 mask....

[ThreeHoler]

Has anyone seen folks wearing beards and turbans?  If so, how are folks in the squadrons reacting?
I've been out for 4 years...kinda glad I didn't have to deal with this.
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/02/11/air-force-officially-oks-beards-turbans-hijabs-for-religious-reasons/?utm_expid=.jFR93cgdTFyMrWXdYEtvgA.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
 

How is this a problem for us, let alone for you?

[Majestik Møøse]

Some retirees care because they’re orienting around a stake they drove at the height of their glory days. Others keep driving new stakes.

[dream big]

You can’t just grow a beard willy nilly, you have to be interviewed by a chaplain to determine basis for religious accommodation and it still has to be approved by an 0-6 or higher.  

[FLEA]

I really can't understand the frustration on this either. We're at a point where finding people who are capable and willing to join the armed forces is becoming harder and harder yet we want to tell people they have to choose their country over their God. That's simply not going to happen. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by FLEA

[arg]

4 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

Has anyone seen folks wearing beards and turbans?  If so, how are folks in the squadrons reacting?

I've been out for 4 years...kinda glad I didn't have to deal with this.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/02/11/air-force-officially-oks-beards-turbans-hijabs-for-religious-reasons/?utm_expid=.jFR93cgdTFyMrWXdYEtvgA.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

Checking my list of things to give a shit about today........Nope, not on it.

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

Has anyone seen folks wearing beards and turbans?  If so, how are folks in the squadrons reacting?

I've been out for 4 years...kinda glad I didn't have to deal with this.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/02/11/air-force-officially-oks-beards-turbans-hijabs-for-religious-reasons/?utm_expid=.jFR93cgdTFyMrWXdYEtvgA.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

We are as happy that you're out of the service as you are.

[JimNtexas]

As long as their waist isn't too big I wouldn't really care about hats or beards.  

Priorities people, priorities. 

[Duck]

I say if they let them wear beards, we should all be allowed to wear beards. I also believe in one standard PFT for men and women. Special jobs can set their own standards that fit with their requirements. Blanket minimum standard across the service. No more catering to special interest groups, either it meets standards or not. If the standards aren’t applicable anymore then don’t make exceptions to policy, just change the fcvking standard.


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[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Duck said:

I say if they let them wear beards, we should all be allowed to wear beards. I also believe in one standard PFT for men and women. Special jobs can set their own standards that fit with their requirements. Blanket minimum standard across the service. No more catering to special interest groups, either it meets standards or not. If the standards aren’t applicable anymore then don’t make exceptions to policy, just change the fcvking standard.


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We do have the same standards for PT. The standard is you have to maintain a level of fitness that promotes an extended life and lower health care premiums. The standard for women is nearly identical to men. It's designed to assess a VO2 max between I believe 45 and 60. It just so happens women need a lot less performance to do that.  

[jrizzell]

Of the 330,000 odd people serving in the active duty Air Force, I’m betting the number of people growing beards and wearing turbans is quite low. If you’ve sworn the oath to defend the US, then I really could careless if your religious beliefs expect you to wear a turban or beard. Times change, and unless those actions affect their job performance, it shouldn’t be an issue.

[FlyingWolf]

4 hours ago, FLEA said:

We do have the same standards for PT. The standard is you have to maintain a level of fitness that promotes an extended life and lower health care premiums. The standard for women is nearly identical to men. It's designed to assess a VO2 max between I believe 45 and 60. It just so happens women need a lot less performance to do that.  

This might be the most asinine, political BS, mental-gymastics justification I have ever heard.

But it could be the whiskey.

[Duck]

We do have the same standards for PT. The standard is you have to maintain a level of fitness that promotes an extended life and lower health care premiums. The standard for women is nearly identical to men. It's designed to assess a VO2 max between I believe 45 and 60. It just so happens women need a lot less performance to do that.  

Okay Boomer.


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[FLEA]

1.) I think that's the incorrect usage of "Okay Boomer."

2.) What I said is absolutely 100% correct and you can google and watch Dr Neil Baumgartner yourself (guy who designed AF PT test) and he will tell you the same. He selected the standard of 45-60 VO2 max because it was heavily correlated with lower risk for diabetes and heart disease. He used a large study by the Cooper institute to determine that women who run between XX:XX and YY:YY have a VO2 MAX of 45-60 and men have to run significantly faster to demonstrate the same VO2 max. Regardless, the entire intent of the test is to measure your VO2 max. He even discusses that he wanted to get rid of Push-ups and Situps all together because they don't scientifically assess anything and have no associated standards, but he was legit over ruled by boomers in that case who argued a military organization should do push up. (which is a really really dumb reason to do push-ups) 

Anyway, the point is, we don't need this assininely strict interpretation of uniformity to have esprit de corp or good order and discipline. Women have been integrated for nearly 40 years now with different dress and appearence standards and hair standards and while the AF is a burning dumpster fire, there are about a million things I can point fingers at because I think it's unfair women can wear skirts and I can't. 

[gearhog]

"And at least two airmen who follow the Norse Heathen, or pagan, faiths have been granted permission to wear a beard."

How do I become a Norse Heathen? Drink mead from a horn and plunder a village?

That sounds like a pretty awesome made-up excuse to have a beard.

 

 

[Duck]

1.) I think that's the incorrect usage of "Okay Boomer."
2.) What I said is absolutely 100% correct and you can google and watch Dr Neil Baumgartner yourself (guy who designed AF PT test) and he will tell you the same. He selected the standard of 45-60 VO2 max because it was heavily correlated with lower risk for diabetes and heart disease. He used a large study by the Cooper institute to determine that women who run between XX:XX and YY:YY have a VO2 MAX of 45-60 and men have to run significantly faster to demonstrate the same VO2 max. Regardless, the entire intent of the test is to measure your VO2 max. He even discusses that he wanted to get rid of Push-ups and Situps all together because they don't scientifically assess anything and have no associated standards, but he was legit over ruled by boomers in that case who argued a military organization should do push up. (which is a really really dumb reason to do push-ups) 
Anyway, the point is, we don't need this assininely strict interpretation of uniformity to have esprit de corp or good order and discipline. Women have been integrated for nearly 40 years now with different dress and appearence standards and hair standards and while the AF is a burning dumpster fire, there are about a million things I can point fingers at because I think it's unfair women can wear skirts and I can't. 

It totally is the wrong use of boomer. That’s what makes it funny.


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[Guardian]

VO2 max makes up for lack of equality? So if a chick is breathing harder that means it’s ok that she can’t run as fast or do as much physical work? That’s a bunch of crap if ive ever heard it. The PT is the exact sexist example why the military is forced to be politically correct to the detriment of the mission

[ThreeHoler]

That “doctor” isn’t a real doctor.


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[Duck]

Next you will tell me that a Chiropractor didn’t go to Medical School!


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[brickhistory]

So, Mr/Ms/non-gender specific form of address squadron commander,

Tell us how much time you can devote to, you know, the mission in your DOC statement and how much on such silliness?

Edited February 15, 2020 by brickhistory

[jazzdude]

VO2 max makes up for lack of equality? So if a chick is breathing harder that means it’s ok that she can’t run as fast or do as much physical work? That’s a bunch of crap if ive ever heard it. The PT is the exact sexist example why the military is forced to be politically correct to the detriment of the mission

What detriment? Don't know about you, but about the most physically demanding thing I've done in my career is bag drags on/off the jet. There's plenty of jobs in a modern milliary where running faster/lifting heavier isn't really necessary to do your job well.

[FLEA]

53 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

So, Mr/Ms/non-gender specific form of address squadron commander,

Tell us how much time you can devote to, you know, the mission in your DOC statement and how much on such silliness?

Alright look dude, the information is out there. I'm not going to fish it for you. Yes, you should as an officer, spend considerable time understanding the standards you uphold your subordinates to and WHY they are there. If you don't spend time understanding those standards, that's on you, not me. I never had trouble knowing my units doc statement and knowing my job as an officer. 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by FLEA

[brickhistory]

19 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Alright look dude, the information is out there. I'm not going to fish it for you. Yes, you should as an officer, spend considerable time understanding the standards you uphold your subordinates to and WHY they are there. If you don't spend time understanding those standards, that's on you, not me. I never had trouble knowing my units doc statement and knowing my job as an officer. 

 

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, you're blocking the aisle of the Class VI and that sale on Sailor Jerry's isn't gonna last forever...

[FlyingWolf]

15 hours ago, FLEA said:

2.) What I said is absolutely 100% correct and you can google and watch Dr Neil Baumgartner yourself (guy who designed AF PT test) and he will tell you the same. He selected the standard of 45-60 VO2 max because it was heavily correlated with lower risk for diabetes and heart disease. He used a large study by the Cooper institute to determine that women who run between XX:XX and YY:YY have a VO2 MAX of 45-60 and men have to run significantly faster to demonstrate the same VO2 max. Regardless, the entire intent of the test is to measure your VO2 max. He even discusses that he wanted to get rid of Push-ups and Situps all together because they don't scientifically assess anything and have no associated standards, but he was legit over ruled by boomers in that case who argued a military organization should do push up. (which is a really really dumb reason to do push-ups) 

Anyway, the point is, we don't need this assininely strict interpretation of uniformity to have esprit de corp or good order and discipline. Women have been integrated for nearly 40 years now with different dress and appearence standards and hair standards and while the AF is a burning dumpster fire, there are about a million things I can point fingers at because I think it's unfair women can wear skirts and I can't. 

Most people know how the test was designed. 

This does not support your argument that we have the "same" standard. We have different standards, literally generated by discriminating based on gender averages.

As long as a woman can score an "excellent" for a run time that would end a man's career, we are damaging esprit de corp. But, sure, we have bigger problems.

Edited February 16, 2020 by FlyingWolf
Spellinz