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The only one I can think of that crashed as a T-Bird was good ole Merrill McPeak. I can not say that he went on to do great things.....

Hey dude, relax. I did exactly the same thing you're doing about 5-6 years ago, and now I'm a pilot. I didn't go to the academy and I didn't have 99s in everything. In fact, ROTC is the easiest route to getting you a pilot slot. True, the academy grads get top choice on getting the slots, but if you work hard enough, it's pretty easy to get one out of ROTC. You pretty much just have to be qualified and not an idiot. Here's what I did: I took the AFOQT, did mediocre 50's to 60's, had a decent gpa from going to school part time while enlisted (Avionics on B-52's at Barksdale), I applied for ASCP (I have a good friend who's doing the exact same thing right now) and was accepted. I chose my school, worked my ass off there and got good grades (the most important factor out of ROTC getting a pilot slot, BTW, and I say that because that'll also affect your commander's ranking) retook the AFOQT after studying pretty hard the first summer I was there for it, and did much better since I knew what to expect and all. In hind sight, the AFOQT is only a small part of getting your slot anyway. Tried hard in ROTC at my school, and then started all over working for what I wanted when I got to UPT. It's a long hard process, but it's totally worth it. Here's my advice: Don't listen to whoever has been telling you that crap. They're probably from the academy, and have no idea how the ROTC program even works. Call an ROTC detachment and talk to one of the officers there and they can (or at least should) tell you exactly how the pilot selection process works for ROTC cadets, if you want to know. Also, ROTC's pretty gay, so is any other AETC training you'll do, so keep that in mind when you get there. If you have any more questions, send me a private message, or whatever they call it here. Big Bear

Gorenc also won the Joseph A. Moller Award--the most outstanding wing commander in ACC--for his stint as the 332d Air Expeditionary Wing commander, where he was responsible for about 21,000 airmen deployed through four Air Expeditionary Force rotations at five air bases in Iraq to include Balad, the busiest single-runway operations in DOD and second only in the world to London's Heathrow International Airport. Gorenc is just a class act, he is mission-focused but still treats everyone well and genuinely cares about his people. I hope this isn’t his last promotion, as it is good to see a real leader climb the ranks instead of the assclowns such as the former-USAFE-commander-whose-name-shall-not-be-spoken! Cheers! M2

Not too sure where your hostility is coming from. Probably some massive insecurities and a deep seated inferiority complex. If I hurt your feelings with my comments then I'm sorry. Maybe you should try to be more thick skinned about these things. This is a place where people air their opinions. Not everyone is going to agree on everything - you don't have to take it personally. As far as your "2500+" hours of flight time - congratulations! That's impressive.

I'm not sure how your spewing of navy jibberish can be construed as a logical retort to my post (or why you even framed your remarks as a reply to my post). I think you have made the mistake of assuming that hours spent dedicated to posting on a message board somehow has a direct correlation to experience in an aircraft. Allow me to educate you - it doesn't. I'm not sure what the navy would consider an "honest error" vs. a plain old error. In my experience, it is as others have already stated in this thread. Each time you fly, errors are made. Sometimes they coincide with other errors that you, or your crew chief, or your navigator, or the tower contoller have made. Sometimes they coincide with mechanical malfunctions that, by themselves on any other day, would normally present no prolems whatsoever. It is at those times that accidents happen. In the cases of the two accidents that were being discussed in this thread (the T-bird and the C-17 crew), pilot error was made. I'm disputing the assertion that, because the T-bird pilot was performing in a "demanding flight envelope", his error is less egregious. That's why this thread was started - because he screwed up the same as many before him have and many after him will with seemingly no ill effects on his career whereas others who have made the same mistake were hurt by it. Personally, I don't think a single accident should end a person's flying career. Similarly, I don't think all people who have never had an accident are good pilots. There are some totally shitty pilots who, by the grace of God, have never scratched a jet. It's a crapshoot, really. There are so many things that can bite you when you step out the door to fly and no matter how "good" you think you are, you'll never be aware of all of them. I think people who have a demonstrated history of poor judgement/performance should be the only folks to loose their wings. Could be accidents/incidents, could be performance during checkrides, could be performance during upgrade, could be a combination of things. But not a single accident, even if it is "pilot error".

No, my 2500+ flight hours of flying military aircraft is what gives me the credibility to state a valid opinion. My post was simply for education of how the Navy handles mishaps via FNAEB's. However, let me say it again, a person without experience flying for the military has zero credibility with respect to this issue. Your opinion comes with no credibility and thus the best course of action for a wannabe in this situation is to STFU. Really, error's are made when you fly? Please Oakawannabe, can you provide insight to your experience so that the rest of us military pilots can learn from your vast knowledge Until you provide some information on your credentials, you can stow the lecture BS. His error was honest in that it wasn't an unsafe act due to a violation. If using HFACS, this would most likely fall under actions committed by an operator that results in human error or an unsafe situation. This would be a skill based error. The fact that he was a T-bird pilot leads me to believe that his prior performance was exemplary and this was a first time, almost tragic mistake. But a mistake that was without ill intent. Whether there were any pre-conditions for what he did, I don't know but it's my understanding that he returned to flying though not with the T-birds. A mishap board would look at all those factors. If his mistake was just that, a one time skill-based error, there would be no reason to hurt his career IMO. Valid opinions may vary of course. Wow, broad stroke there Okawannabe. So a pilot who willfully violates rules and regulations should continue? Again, thank's for the infinite flying words of wisdom you are providing us. Please oh wise one, tell us military aviators more...please!! Okawannabe, genius here. Did you have to look that up or figure it out on your own? Might want to rethink some of it. However, again, thanks for the words of wannabe wisdom Yet in the above quote, you said just that. So which is it Okawannabe? You seem to have it all figured out so help us experienced aviators learn from your extensive knowledge. I'm enjoying it thus far

So it's bad when people see warning signs and ignore them (Ft Hood comes to mind) and bad when people see warning signs and do something about it? It would be one thing if they arrested the guy or just seized his weapons for no reason... but they didn't do that, they took him to get a mental health examination. Much rather have this guy get looked at then risk him going into work and shooting up 30 of his co-workers. If a muslim man had been making statements about how he hates the fact that American soldiers are in Arab lands suddenly starts buying ammonia nitrate... would you not expect law enforcement agencies to look at this guy?