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FG, Wanted to take moment to formally recognize you and say thanks for your participation and input on this forum. Unfortunately, this forum highlights the often negative relationship between Ops and Support. You are definitely in the business of taking care of folks as demonstrated by the number and depth of questions you answer. How in the world you found your way to a forum full of prima dona aviators is a mystery, the fact that you stayed and have contributed and helped so many people is a testament to the type of professional you are. On behalf of all the folks you have helped on this board, thanks! CH

Wow... Judging from the reaction on some sports pages I should have sub-titled it "US gets sand in its vagina"

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To those here that think we make too much and want to cut our retirement, leave. Just leave because you don't get it and there is no way for anyone to convince you that your pathetic thinking is backwards. If you really want to stay, donate all that you don't think you deserve to charity. Be sure to brag to us about it. Out

Again, the “I am in the Army disclaimer”. But as someone who has access to all the Aviation numbers on our side of the house, here is my take. The reason we make the money (yes, it is a lot) is not because we do such a dangerous job. Sorry to all of you that like to think that but it is just not true but I am sure the girls in the bar will still believe you. The real reason is that the military unlike the civilian world cannot “hire” mid level managers. Work for brand “X” and need someone with mid level or even senior management? You will have more qualified applicants than you can ever interview. The civilian market is very competitive right now. The military cannot do that. For example, we are short Majors right now. The reasons are simple. We went from 1.3 million men to 440,000. Officers make up about 10%. We commissioned less (keeping 10% for the 440). That same group of commissioned officers is a part of a 540,000 man force that has been deployed more than any group in history. So a lot have gotten out leaving us even shorter. How do we fill this gap? Make the time lines shorter to make MAJ? That will work in a while, but mean while, that mid 90’s class will get promoted to LTC and then we will be short of LTC’s. There is no way for us to close the gap. We can’t just go hire an Army Major. That is why we make so much. Simple numbers. Find yourself in a year group that has far more than it needs and see how important you are. The amount of money we make is trivial compared to the amount of money spent training us and the impossibility of replacing all but the junior officers. Simple business. You would think it would be simple to manage. But as we are discussing now, congress keeps changing the end strength numbers. It is all numbers needed vs numbers on hand vs funding and the possibility to maintain each. That was the officer in me prospective. The personnel side doesn’t have any friends in the civilian world that have had to spend as much time away from their family as we have. Or get up every morning in their 40’s to do PT because their employer requires it. None of those same friends have ever been shot at. I don’t know any civilian who has had to move 5 times in 3 ½ years. Personally, I do think I make a lot of money and will get a lot for retirement. And I think I deserve every penny.

Noted… Given the current job market you have a limited point, but with regard to officers you are wrong, proven time and again by a multitude of studies. You argument falls completely flat once a person has served for a few years and been trained in a specialty. Again, untrue…while the rolling in bank argument is nonsense, as an engineer you will start at a higher salary than you will make as a 2Lt. It really comes down to the type of degree especially with regard to engineering and if you are certified or not. Blah Blah based on your situation you assume 50% is the standard….try again. Willing to bet I am a bit senior to you and was offered a job last week making over double what I make on active duty…so if I use your singular logic, all active duty could double their pay by getting out. It is all relative to the situation and qualification. Crazy money? Really??? Ever had a friend die in a crash? Ask his family if they have crazy money left. At this point I would say you are a poser. Anyone in this business, especially someone who has been doing it for a while and has lost friends in combat and training, know we don’t make crazy money for the risks we take. You sound like a fucking tool at this point in the discussion. “I got two degrees”…For fucks sake learn to speak…Notice you said senior Capt’s pay and 15 years. Average engineering pay charts would say that is not true. Again it depends on the type of engineering and while there may be a lag at that point in your career, HOWEVER< senior engineers will more than make up for as they move up the ranks, many of which make well more than the Chief of Staff. Dear god soulja boy this is not the hood, I can see why you make less. The officers that have liberal arts degrees are also spending years away from home living in tents and exposed to the risk of losing their lives. They give up certain constitutional rights that the average citizen gets to enjoy, and their income should not be related to the median income...a complete apples to walnuts argument. There are so many aspects to military service that are not part of the average civilians employment. I would go on, but what is the point, you won’t get it and you will likely just reply with a Flo Rida quote.

Really? Your posts are laced with passive aggressive insults to anyone who disagrees with you, which leads to the "BL: ToughShit" response and you get all butt hurt when someone replies...really? Grow a pair of stones. You want to have a debate, fine with me, but your bias serves comes out as sanctimonious elitism. There are huge fiscal issues facing this country and of course no one wants to have their ox gored. A litmus test to determine levels of military retirement based on your type of service....really that is what you have? While the military retirement system is expensive, it is not the problem. From a military budget point of view, the issue is acquisition costs, (O and M for USAF), and Tricare. Spend all the brain-bytes you want fixing those programs but the real issues are the social entitlement programs. Medicare (it will break us), Medicaid, and Social Security (now in the red while leveraging a non-existent trust fund).

BL: I don't like you. You serve no other purpose than to validate retroactive birth control.

So wait, now you want to engage on the issues? Or do you still want to "retroactively abort" me? I'm confused... If you don't like my tone, then point taken, but throwing bombs is not the way to correct that. I might sound like a snarky asshole sometimes but based on the usual tone here on BO.net I didn't think that was outside the ops limits for discussion. I agree with everything you wrote here. This issue won't be touched because it's won't really solve the deficit meaningfully, and can't be backed politically. The only reason we're debating this is because the OP linked the army times story about this particular aspect of the Domenici-Rivlin plan. This isn't some pet issue of mine, I can't wait to get my 50% pay if/when I make it to 20. Hell, it's not something that's even gonna change, but, the story was posted and since outside groups are looking at this for ways to save money, I think it's smart to have a discussion among ourselves about what possible alternate systems might be acceptable WRT costs, retention, etc. If those in the military don't have an acceptable counter-proposal to whatever is being brewed up in think tanks and debt commissions, then we'll definitely be forced to bend over and take whatever is coming down the pike. Based on attitudes expressed here, apparently any changes, or even talk of changes, will cause the world to end and/or everyone to seek out guard positions; at least we know where we stand I guess. My idea was based on this premise: We're supposedly saying military retirement (or "retention") benefits are based on having been earned. Logically then, if we all get the same benefits in retirement assuming same rank and TOS, then we have all earned them equally. Really? Some 11B ground-pounder shooting it out in Iraq/Afghanistan has "earned" the same amount of retirement benefits as a desk jockey who's primary job is virtually identical to some GS civilian? We don't get paid equally while on active duty (flight pay, HFP, family sep, etc.), so why the feel-good, everyone's the same attitude once we hit 20 years?

FUBIJAR SWITCH: ON (ALL CREW) As a Reservist, I disagree with the general notion that the majority of AD officers are above average in their ability to beat income potential in the civilian sector. Not a chance. That's optimism bias talking. All my AD bro's pound their chest and proselytize that they would be bank rolling in the civi sector tomorrow, while the more tempered of their compadres look at them, having just got out from industry and into the military themselves, with this "you're a fool" look. With the incredible amount of engineering and liberal arts majors amongst our officer ranks I can tell you very few of these people would be able to chase a Captain's salary just 4 years from the start of the race. I know because I make 50% of what my AD peers make while performing the same duties and I'm knee deep in the civilian sector hiring day to day. AD cats are just blowing smoke, yall make crazy money for the risk of getting blown out of the sky, more likely die in training for the majority. I got two degrees in engineering and in order for me to make senior Capt's pay and entitlements, would take me the better part of 15 years and a multiplicity of layoffs and "relocations". You guys have nothing to complain about. Frankly I think most officer ranks are overpaid. A 20 year pension is an afterthought frankly. Look I'm not bagging on my own plate, I have a vested interest in keeping some form of a civil service retirement alive by the time I hang up the flight suit, but y'all gotta step away from the "FU I got mine" for a second and concede military and civil service retirements ARE out of line from the eroding trend of civilian pay and retirement vehicles. I'm not saying go Greek on the austerity measures and watch the exodus from the all-volunteer force, but stop acting as if the military service you provide keeps you from exceeding your income potential as a GROUP, because it DOES NOT. Come to the guard/Reserves and try to make that argument to the citizen Airmen that do take on TWO jobs and make less than you, and we got Air Force wings and science and math degrees out the ying ya too bra'... You make silly money for what you do. QOL is terrible at times, but you make silly money. The median individual income in this country is 50K and most people in non-technical degrees have median incomes way lower than that, and we got plenty officers with lib art degrees. I asked my AD bud one day: "hey bra, would you do your job for 60% of what you make and no retirement till 60yo +0/-5? He said "Hell no." Who's the patriot again? We all recognize the opportunity cost of military service, but don't act like you're Jesus. FUBIJAR SWITCH: OFF

Looking for some help. Been searching/reading forever but can't find the post a while back linking to some new ISR capes our UAVs are getting/fielding. For the life of me I can't remember the callsign of said program to search for as well. Post had something along the lines of 'this is a freaking cool callsign' and someone else posting a link to an overview slide - 1 UAV with multiple cameras with significant more coverage and multi tasking to allow multiple simultaneous sensor looks. Something like that. Anyone see that post/link recently or was it lost in the transition to the new UAV forum? Any help is much appreciated!