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I've been delaying adding my thoughts on this issue, but I think now's a good as time as any. -First, the philosophy of a flying squadron vs a non-flying squadron: I love the tradition (what we have left) of being different than non-flying squadrons. I love that we still bars, can drink a beer while debriefing after a night line, can tease each other about stupid/silly things, and have strong relationships/camaraderie that stem from flying with each other in the aircraft, hacking the mission together, and putting up with all the crap together. I'm a big believer that 'excessive courtesy', though hard to avoid when flying with an O-6+, has a big negative effect on CRM in the aircraft (safety and mission wise), and can also hinder productive briefs/debriefs, etc. All this being said, believing that rank and customs/courtesies need not exist in the squadron hurts things more than it helps. It's all fun and games until your "buddy" who outranks you gives you a shit job because it's your turn and you feel he's being unfair, you have to counsel an FE for failing to follow directives (after being told times before), your boss picks someone else for the next upgrade, etc. Though I'm a big believer of having a fun place to work, good order and discipline can't be ignored, and if you think that as a Captain you don't have a salute a bro who's a Major, then how will things go when it gets a little ugly? Things are different in the flying world, but you're still in the military--don't look like crap in your uniform because you don't care, don't act like you're so important you can blow things off because everyone's 'cool with each other', and for crying out loud, have a little pride in what you do. You can still have fun and be an awesome pilot/aircrew member while continuing to be a professional. -2Lt's not saluting 1Lt's I think this is the least of our problems in the Air Force...but it does make for an interesting argument. I was also told this as a young 2Lt at UPT, that 'Lieutenants shouldn't salute other Lieutenants'. I remember saluting 1Lt FAIP's and getting laughed at sometimes, but oh well, it put a smile on face to make someone else laugh...and it was much better than dealing with that one ass 1Lt FAIP would chew us out for not doing so. As for me, I never cared if a 2Lt saluted me as a 1Lt--maybe I should have, but I was definitely going to make sure that I wasn't in the wrong as a 2Lt. Also, like others have said, what does a 2Lt do when a 1Lt gives a directive--if you don't think the 1Lt is any different than you, you probably won't execute as well--attitude has everything to do with it. As you an see, this is a much bigger than just rendering salutes. -Something else to ponder: What example does it set for Senior Airman who are in charge of A1C's? They're both 'Airman' right? You'd be surprised how much they see what goes on, whether in a flying squadron or not (we have 3 stripe ARMS troops in charge of 2-stripers), and in the end, it sets a bad example to just blow things off...again, I'm not focusing on the saluting part of it per se, just the overall impression that people close in rank are 'the same'. I guess what really got me going was when some of you guys said it was cool for Captains to not salute Majors and that it's all about 'crew position', even when it has nothing to do with flying, preparing for a flight, or the brief/debrief. This is foul IMO. In the past, I've witnessed instructor FE's/Gunners treat student pilots like crap and be disrespectful because they were instructors and the student was unqualed, which I always believed was uncalled for...fortunately I've seen this improve over the years, but it still exists. In the end, take your job seriously, treat people fairly and with mutual respect, and have fun doing the best job in the world!

Conjecture. Have that same Lt/Captain walk down Disney in uniform and then have them explain to you the virtue of always being saluted. Bro rules shouldn't apply in situations where it will be detrimental to the reputation of the squadron you represent. In the squadron parking lot, I will wear my morale patches with pride (and so will the SQ/CC) and probably not salute my O-3 bros because they are my bros. I'll roll my sleeves up and guys who chew might spit on the ground. Outside the Wing HQ or the gym or clinic or wherever else, we will follow the rules to a T because the last thing the Boss needs is some Chief or uptight Lt. Col. coming to him asking why his Lts aren't following the rules. Part of the unwritten rule is to continue to have SA on your surroundings when applying the other unwritten rules.

I worked at IBM as a co-op during college, and was given a very, very lucrative job offer when I graduated. I passed on it to roll the bones on becoming an officer and a pilot,... and maybe be a part of something bigger,... at least that was what my 22 year old mind was telling me. I was and still am proud to wear the uniform of the USAF. On the day I was commissioned, I was pretty pleased to be wearing it,... even those it was the Blues... a uniform that many of you despise. And as for the saluting, if you feel it is beneath you to salute, then I really don't know what do say. I just don't get it. Do you not make eye contact? Do you not say "yo, what's up?" Or is this some sort of way you compensate for your small penis? Oh, and the next time any of you Captains walks by a Lieutenant Commander at the Pentagon, make sure you explain to him how "in my squadron, we have a 'one up, one down rule.'" Yet another reason the other Services often laugh at our attitude. I'm certainly not very "traditional" in a military sense, no matter how you look at it. But for crying out loud, you wanted to be here,... try to enjoy the customs and courtesies. It's not a burden.

Seriously? ::entitlement generation:: "I'm entitled to not salute some people because that's what I'm entitled to do as a flyer." Noted. It's a salute. A sign of respect. If you're not going to salute brothers that have paid their dues longer than you have, what exactly is the purpose of a salute? You people are making it sound like a salute somehow degrades the relationship you have with the person you're saluting. What is this, kindergarden? Haha! Timmy saluted Jonny! Grow up. If you want to be called a professional, you have to act like one first. Once again: WWROD. I'm pretty sure he saluted people that outranked him and didn't give people flak for saluting him. It ain't that tough. FF

Not knowing when you're supposed to get promoted is kind of like not knowing when your mortgage payment is due, or when your insurance expires, or when your next flight physical is supposed to be. It's so simple, takes so little effort...but is kind of important.

Agreed. When I was a Lt I wouldn't salute a Capt that was in a bag, but if I was in the BX parking lot I would salute a Capt or Maj that was in BDUs. It certainly wasn't that I respected treesuiters more than flyers, just that I was aware that different communities and areas of base have different 'standards' for C&C. And as nsplayer mentioned, the last thing I wanted as a Lt was to get shit on by the Boss because he got shit on by his boss because of something I did. I don't see this as someone not caring about C&C or military tradition. We of all people can appreciate military tradition since we're always bitching about out the AF doesn't seem to care about it. It has more to do with the bro level way of life and the group dynamics of a flying squadron. The way I as a Capt interact with a Maj or Lt Col is my squadron is not at all the same way those ranks would interact in the Army, or even in the Comm Sq. No rank in the jet, no rank in the debrief, and no rank in the bar naturally leads to an attitude of no rank in the office or the parking lot. Not saying it's bad, just saying that's the way things are in the flying world. But when it comes down to respecting rank, we all understand flight discipline and the way the military functions. Our way is not the only way, nor is it best for everyone else.