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Poetic justice: the crew bus driver at KMCF waited for over two hours for the jet to arrive at the spot and missed shift change. SC

Cut 'em some slack. At least their gear was down

I pray they release the CVR tapes after the investigation. We've seen some serious collapses in CRM in the 17 over the last year that have led to some very close calls. I think this could be classified as a close call. AMC really needs to look at the number of highly experienced guys they are shoving out the door to go fly other MWS's. The community as a whole is hemorrhaging experience and backfilling with guys fresh out of Altus. Additionally, we see a lot of guys who are slammed into upgrades (especially IP school) primarily for career progression when he or she may not otherwise be sent. This mix is obviously not working out too well for us. I know nothing bout the experience level of this crew (all 19 of them), but perhaps this, and a few of the other recent mishaps, could have been mitigated though a slightly more seasoned pool from which we are building crews. It's only going to get worse.

Was it an african Globemaster or a european Globemaster?

I would just like to imagine a theater with half the audience carrying concealed and being well-trained with their weapons of choice. It would have been a completely different ending. That dude would not have survived. On another note Buddy Spike, you chastising guys for speculating on their reaction is no better than their speculation. No one knows what they would do in that situation until they are in it. The fact is the guy was vulnerable. Multiple witnesses said he had time to reload. I am also not aware of any bullet proof gas masks, although I have considered testing one after breathing through it bored to tears under a desk. My guess is that anyone fighting back would have had a slightly better chance than running for the exits. I think it was in the mid-1990s when a similar idiot walk down Franklin Street in Chapel Hill, NC wielding a rifle. The guy picked off two students and a cop. In a nearby restaurant was a separated Marine bartender about to start his shift. He ran towards the shooter, hid where he could still see him, and waited for him to reload. Once he started to reload, the Marine pounced on his opportunity, tackled him, and saved countless lives. I have already determined that if I'm in this situation, I'm charging forward smartly. I think my chances are better than running in the opposite direction. What will I do for real, who the hell knows?

You've got your whole life to prepare. The people on Flight 93 were the first to realize that if a plane is high-jacked you have to fight. Now any potential high-jacker knows they will be opposed by the passengers. But in mass shooting scenarios like Virginia Tech, Norway, and this latest guy the shooter goes unopposed for as long as they have ammo. People would rather get shot in the back than try to stop the guy.

Separating in Lieu of Court Martial is not considered a felony conviction, but it is basically the same discharge rate considering it is a dismissal. If Jared wants to call me, I'll be up for a few more hours. I am OCONUS tomorrow and cannot be reached after that. He needs to hire a civilian lawyer. His ADC, no matter how good she is, cannot give him a fair shake against the government. Tell him to PM me, and I'll give him my phone number to tell him why.

"Mattis bet us 50 bucks that we couldn't put it down at O. Knight; we had no choice but to defend the honor of our service and our airframe." That would be my story to the grave.

Not to mention the current ribbon of flying hour cuts, shortages in training, experience.... SQUADRONS at CHS get one local a week, 5 sorties a month now? No wonder! That's insane! And don't tell me the sim is the same! Thats total bullshit! But as long as we keep fixing symptoms, we will continue to hemorage, wreck jets, crews, hang dudes out to dry, kill people (the wrong people) and screw ourselves over. Starting to wonder why I'm still here.... Chuck

From Bergman: "The Ultimate Tactical Approach: Even YOU don't know where you're landing" Hope it all gets sorted out without any additional shenanigans on departure. Chuck

That is exactlywhat I think. And, yes, it was a dark theater, etc... But had a CCW carrying person changed the end result to 11 dead or less, it would have been well worth it.

That's an excellent video, but you have a well lit area, nobody was running around because the bad guys obviously weren't planning on killing everyone in sight, and an open room. If those robbers came in shooting and everybody was running around it wouldn't have been that easy. Either way, props to the old dude for stepping up. Compare that to a movie theater. You have a foot of room between the seats, it's dark, you're sitting in the middle of the theater, there's smoke, and seats left down, a bunch of people's shit on the floor, probably bodies in the aisle, I don't care if you're ######ing Usain Bolt, you aren't going to get a good run at the guy unless you're lucky enough to be sitting in an aisle seat and no one is in your way, you're not blinded, you think on your feet fast enough and you haven't been shot already. In this case the video shows the guy firing 6 times at 2 targets. For the first 2 shots he sneaks to within a couple of feet of the only one with a gun and then fires a few more close range shots at them running away. The result? 3 Superficial wounds in the hip, arm and buttock. Again, well lit area, no one in the way, open shooting lanes and area to maneuver, no body armor and most importantly no one is trying to kill him and everyone in there, and the suspects are still able to sprint away. If they were more bent on death and destruction like this ass clown that probably means the bad guys could keep on shooting and killing. I wish there were some brave dudes packing heat who could have popped this guy the second he started throwing shit, but this isn't an crappy action movie where the good guys always win and the bad guys can't shoot straight, it's real life. Don't think that because he surrendered that he was a coward who wouldn't fight back. A lot of assassins and deranged shooters want immortality through infamy, but are willing to die or fight back in the process because they know if the stop the second someone resists they won't get that infamy from wounding 1 or 2 people. In this case he probably figured he'd met his quota and would just bask in the media attention in jail. Either way put him on trail, play a recording of his confession, drag him out back and put a bullet in his head and move on. Why can't these pieces of shit just save everyone the effort and put a bullet in their head before they plan something like this?

So let's get this straight. A fellow pilot augers one in and there's nothing but "Don't speculate, you weren't there, you can't say how you'd react." But go to a movie theater and have an armed, armored, prepared lunatic packing heat with 100 round mags throwing flash bangs/smoke grenades/tear gas open up on everyone and there's nothing but saying "those people are pussies, I totally would have tackled the guy". If you think that in this situation that a CCW would have done anything you are completely wrong. The Hollywood shootout had the above scenario with the dozens of trained police officers having time to prepare for it while responding, open firing lanes, broad daylight, no gas or civilians running around blocking your shot and what effect did those small caliber handgun bullets do to the a-holes wearing body armor? Absolutely nothing. The dude had kevlar, a helmet, the element of surprise and a great vantage point. Maybe you'd be the hero and put a round in his face to save the day, but odds are you'd panic, take a poor shot, put more rounds in the air possibly hitting people who might have escaped unharmed, the dude would have killed you, maybe saving 1 or 2 people (but then again maybe the crossfire results in an equal number of casualties), then resumed the slaughter.

Anyone ever seen a shooting simulator scenario that involved a BG with body armor? I have, and amazingly even seasoned law enforcement officers hesitate a moment to comprehend why their multiple center-of-mass shots are being ineffective in stopping the threat. It's unnatural, good hits on the target but not the desired effect. And "head shots" are nice in concept but extremely difficult under such conditions. I am far from an expert shooter, heck I consider myself to be just a little better than average in some regard; but I can tell you that it is a completely different situation from standing at a shooting range and taking well prepared shots at a piece of paper. Would have some lethal response slowed the shooter down? Most likely, but again it's a matter of weighing the risks involved. A dark and smoky movie theater crowded with hysterical people once they realized what was happening, it's a tough call. Sure most of us would like to believe we'd aggressively counterattack, but considering the circumstances I can completely understand why someone would chose not to. Remember the Gifford shooting in Arizona, there's a good chance that at least a few individuals were carrying there but no one engaged the shooter. All in all, it's a very horrific act by a real piece of shit, I agree with Rainman in that he appears to be enough of a coward that even just a few rounds fired in his direction most likely would have caused him to break off his attack and flee. It's just a matter of how much of an opportunity there was to do that with relative assuredly that you don't just simply add to the casualty list. In the end, the old police training adage that "action beats reaction" applies. Given the circumstances, I think some response would have been warranted no matter what the risk or probability of success... Cheers! M2

it's WTF because normally, we are not allowed to wear our uniforms to any kind of political event or any event where you are making a statement like that. I couldn't wear my uniform to do something that represents my church in some kind of rally, or to participate in some kind of other pride parade (be it religious, ethnic, etc) so why can homosexuals wear theirs to a gay pride parade? It is giving them special treatment and allowing them privileges that the rest of the service is denied.

There is no guarantee of success, but in the very least you provide a temporary distraction and draw his fire from the people trying to exit. That might also give other people a chance to follow your attempt in subduing him. I would be very disappointed in myself if I made it out safely while people's husbands, wives, and children were gunned down. I would rather die trying to do something versus living with the conscience of a coward or being shot running away.

Someone's been reading too many Vince Flynn novels. You're not Mitch Rapp, old man. You're in a crowded theater with tear gas, people panicking, and a heavily armed assailant with body armor and a rifle. If you start shooting from concealment, odds are you're going to hit or clip one of the people running for their lives. I seriously doubt there was a clear shot, especially not in a dark theater with the guy wearing all black and throwing tear gas into the room. If you try to approach, you're going to get mowed down. He has the advantage of line of sight. Everything is in front of him, and you have to descend (more than likely, unless you sit all the way in the front of the theater). He was picking people off going for the exit. Everyone's a keyboard cowboy, but odds are you would have been just as ineffective in this situation as everyone else. But please, tell us more how you would have single handedly disarmed and stood down the threat in the midst of chaos.

<RANT ON> I know I'm going to get flamed here, but whatever, I don't fucking care! Someone mentioned about "standby for an FCIF prohibiting visual approaches." IF THIS IS THE CASE, then this wouldn't surprise me one bit, and quite frankly, we would deserve it. This is a pet peeve of mine and as a Safety guy and an Airlne pilot, I've flown with too many guys in my squadron who get lazy and request visual approaches to airports they've never been to before. I see them losing their minds asking me if I have the field in sight. I tell them I do, but they don't and try to get me at last minute to request an instrument approach, all the while I have the ILS and inbound course dialed in. Instead, I take the aircraft from them, and get lined up and give the plane back to them. All this is then followed up by a snide junior high school remark just to save face. At my airline job we have SOP's that state, "All visual approaches will be backed up with an instrument approach." Sure, the C-17, C-130, etc., etc., etc., all fly tactical stuff and yadda yadda yadda, but this is NO EXCUSE to not use your instrument skills to land an f-ing aircraft. <RANT OFF> To piggyback on what other guys have said, hopefully there were circumstances that caused them to land at Peter O. Knight instead of MacDill.

I am a firm believer (sts) that someone carrying a concealed weapon in Aurora could have saved a life or two. I'm sure you've seen the video of the 70 year old that turned and fired on two armed robbers in Ocala, FL. If you haven't, you should google it. Those two dudes turned from badasses to scaredy-cats in a matter of seconds. Having the ability to shoot back is a game changer and a deterrent for future nut jobs. There is no other answer in my opinion to save lives in these situations. The roving police patrols cannot be everywhere at once. The cops responded in a matter of minutes, but it still wasn't fast enough to save those killed or injured.

Reference above post. In the chaos and tear gas and dark theater it's hard to believe someone could have got a finishing shot on the guy in the head. We'll obviously never know but I feel like most likely if the guy takes a round in his Kevlar he'll just specifically target the guy who shot him. I'm 100% in support of gun rights and CC but I just don't know if it would have helped in this situation.

Head shot--not saying that someone would have been able/had an opportunity to take the shot, but you never know. Also, when you shoot someone with armor plates, the bullets don't just 'bounce off'...it changes the dynamics of the shooter and the situation.

Standby for new Vol 3 with even more CRM callouts. Thanks guys! Here is your new AMC SII: Airfield Recognition

The issue in the crowd isn't about CCW, it's about someone deciding that the best chance for survival is forward, not towards the exits.

Too true...something like this is perfect proof why law-abiding citizens should have CCW. But of course the left-wingers will just cry for more gun control because they're too stupid and blind to see gun control only hurts law-abiding citizens, not assholes like this who are going to commit these crimes regardless of how many laws are made. Thoughts and prayers with those affected last night. I can't imagine how terrible it must be for the families involved.

Fat chance, as he's a Marine ground pounder. But maybe that field was closer to the General's crib, and the pilots wanted to please him so they could get a coin.

Different letters and numbers, man. One is made by Pilatus. The other isn't. One has one engine. The other has two. One can barrel roll. The other can't.

Looking forward to seeing those guys at Holloman.

At least the gear was down this time.

Why's that in the WTF thread? You some kind of hateful bigot?

Standing by for FCIF stating visual approaches are no longer allowed...

I'm sure you'd run into them @ Mons Venus tonight.

Sure you would...

Better yet, get them to a trusted friend's place so she cannot say that you used one to threaten her. I've done this for a few guys to help them out.