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Surf... After reading numerous post on here, I had to finally chime in. A little background. I retired a few months after 27+ years in. Loadmaster (C/MC-130's,) CC (HC-130) and finally FE (C-5). On top of that, I hold A&P, CFI and ATP licenses/ratings. While I truly enjoyed being an FE on Fred (and would have remained, if my unit had not switched to -17's), your vision and version on what the FE of today and the past decade are is misguided. Yes, at some point they were system experts, and also outside the "Pilot" union.. but those days are long gone. My unit had some of the BEST FE's out there.. we also had some of the worse. No different that the Pilot section, or the Load section. The fact that there was one Class A C-5 accident, and a handful of Class B's is testimony that even with FE's on board, shit can and will still happen. Can we say for sure (100%) that this incident, or the Tampa landing, or the gear up.. would not have happened if there had been an FE onboard?- Nope. As a strat airlifter- the C-17 probably doesn't need an FE. Hell, the 74's flying cargo with new -400's/8's don't have FE's either. There comes a day/time that the FE position needs to go away. Now, don't get me wrong- an FE is a great asset to have. If he's a true Flight Engineer..an aviator, a guy who loves his airframe and loves his place in life. Unfortunately, those are far and few inbetween. Mostly the old heads and a handful of young tigers (until they get sick and tired of all the AF BS) Just like many of the gunners have left, same with navs and slowly FE's, there will come a day when many pilots will disappear. Just the way it is. Hopefully that's another 50 years away! Always Motch

Use the pedals here all of the time AND designed to be mil-spec

Oh, that's funny! Do Mil-Spec pilots even know how to use the rudder?? I mean,... after they are done with the nose wheel steering function.

The FE can also shut up and get me more damn coffee.

Why do I need a systems expert? In a decade of flying, I never had a problem I couldn't figure out with a copilot and a loadmaster and the crap-ton of pubs on board. If I did, I could have always used one of the 9 million radios to call Boeing. But I never did. Look, you have an opinion. Which is fine. It's unsupported by facts. And anyone on this forum. And every major aircraft manufacturer. And every airline. But hang in there man, the rest of the world is wrong.

Surf70, guess the airshow sequester has freed up your weekends to post here rather than bug pilots in public.

All I know is that in the KC-10, I would choose 100% of the time a shit hot FE over a shit hot copilot any day & twice on Sunday. An FE that is slow as shit running the checklist and doing TOLD is just brutal. With an idiot for a copilot, I can easily fly & work the radios while he sits on his hands.

..... and it's back to Master's degrees .......

Here's what I learned: I learned how an AF squadron works, I learned to fly in a high-G aircraft (I hadn't had 4 months of training in a T-38 prior to showing up...it was all with old fart-knockers in the T-1/T-39), and I learned what was expected of fighter wingmen. I feel like I already had complaining and inferiority down prior to my arrival.

Outstanding! Good caveat. But,... for the sake of "splitting hairs",... that aircraft was not originally designed for the military (i.e. not "mil-spec"). But your point is made. p.s. that Basler conversion looks sweet.

Yes it's valid. Was not disputing that.

Me sizing you up for a brand new RATR hat in the very near future....

So, how come the FE didn't "save" the deployed KC-10 bubbas from landing on the wrong runway and/or without clearance a few years back? Guess no one is perfect. Except me, of course.

The FE probably didn't know about all the Ecstasy that was stashed down in the cargo compartment! See, nobody likes the FEs... they won't even let them in on the easy cash from an international drug ring! Hahahaha... sorry, that one was too easy!!! No more trash talking from me on Mother's Day...

The lack of an FE is obviously the reason so many F-16s are landing with the gear up, 1000' short, on the wrong runway. Wait.

FE's on fighters!

Fucking hell, another FE argument? Hey Surf70, it's called progress. Look it up. I fly an airplane with an FE and even I can see their relevance in modern aviation has all but disappeared. What are you going to say next, that taking FE's out of 747's was a bad idea, and that the Bagram crash never would have happened if they still had them on -400's? GMAFB. I give you facepaw.

Surf70, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Remember that in 2008 a 777 was about 1000' short at Heathrow for what boils down to insufficient throttle response. Speaking of underrun, that place only has 100' whereas Dover has a full 1000' and the equipment is another 50-200 ft south.

That's where Rainman's been the last few months...

I'm offended that copilots are working on their masters at work and not studying the T.O.s.

The Air Force can preach tolerance and acceptance all it wants, but making guys take lessons on the computer just won't do it. I lived in Saudi for a year, so I'm pretty well versed in Islam and scoff at the ignorance most people cast towards Muslims. That being said, my suggestion would be that you don't broadcast your religion to anybody who you don't know well. Ignorance remains strong and you don't want to make yourself a target.