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#fatbitch The worst kind.

Asians love taking pictures-Fact

The 'bro' you mention above isn't. Your frau's squadron also sounds like it is trying to be something that it isn't and is lacking in any actual leadership. From your location I'll make some guesses and say what has been commonly attributed to the 'fighter pilot' culture is a long f-ing way from what is happening in your wife's squadron and how CAF squadron's that kill people and break things for a living actually conduct business. I do believe her community probably has too many young punks with not enough silverbacks to f-ing squash said behavior when and how appropriate. That's unfortunate. And if Offut is where you are still at I would say that yes, the experience(s) you describe do not reflect the rest of the CAF. I hope things change for the better in that regard. e

Welcome to Baseops.net

You are absolutely right. After something a violent as that crash, everything stops and you know you need to get out. The brain will then go into survival mode. That being said, I am still going to punch you in the face a throw your ass out the nearest door, because that is the training I would fall back on. Let this be a lesson to everyone... Wear proper footwear on a flight and fly Boeing. That plane took quite a beating, it is hard to believe there were not hundreds killed.

This is actually a very common response after a crash. Under new, and extremely high stress situations, people tend to revert to something they know - i.e. get your bags and get off the plane. It's also why every professional interviewed after an incident says they "just fell back on their training." That type of irrational behavior has been documented at nearly every major crash with survivors. It's interesting if you care anything about psychology.

Dude, if it's not clear at all you can take your backhanded "compliments" and cram them up your ass. You can either stick to the facts, give people a little knowledge and continue "keeping the faith" or you can get down in the mud and start slinging personal rants back and forth. You can't do both. I'm guessing if you are some type of senior leader you can recognize which of those two COAs is more valuable to both BO.net and as a measure of how you spend your own time. So by all means, continue posting your insights on the problems people bitch about here, but if those insights are continually laced with a sarcastic, high-horse, aristocratic attitude about how awesome the AF is and how thankful everyone should be, you will make little to no progress in helping anyone and you might as well save the effort.

What the fuck is with this "rape song" bullshit? Liquid said that three or four times now you're starting up with it. I've been in a lot of fighter squadrons and sung a lot of songs in a lot of bars in a lot of countries. NOT ONE of them has condoned, mentioned, suggested, etc, rape. Not one. Crude? Yes. Extremely so. Rape? Fuck no. The list of songs liquid said was apparently from a google search and even parroted the Wikipedia description. Most of those songs I've never heard of. The rest have lyrics that are variable (s&m, Chicago, etc) meaning that there are infinite verses possible and many are made up on the spot. So because you can do a google search and find some lyrics that some British rugby team used or in an old Vietnam songbook does not mean that those are lyrics actually sung in a fighter bar. I'm not saying that there has never been an Air Force person to sing a song that did. But to suggest that there is some culture of "rape songs" in the air force or in fighter squadrons is so fucking ignorant of the truth it's unbelievable.

Don't sweat it. A little duct tape and some paint and they'll have that 777 all patched up by then. Looks like you may want to pick a seat closer to the front if you can though.

To me, the most offensive thing about the songs everyone is talking about is how stretched the definition of "rhyming" gets sometimes. Especially the verses made up in the moment.

Ok, where to begin...1st, Offut is not a fighter base, it's an ISR base. It sounds like some guys there may have the wrong idea of a fighter squadron roll call...I've been in a few fighter squadrons and all but two (out of hundreds) of the bros call signs had nothing to do with sex stories. One that did was changed shortly after we shook off our hangovers, and the other the guy liked (and was about himself, no one else) so it stuck. Nearly all of them had to do with flying-related buffoonery or a clever pun on someone's last name. The Nellis test always applied. (i.e. "Good morning, I'm Capt XXXXXXX and I am the mission commander." If XXXXXX didn't immediately make him lose all credibility or wasn't obviously racist/sexist/offensive, pass. If not, new name. Alternatively, CNN test applied: "Capt John XXXXX Doe's aircraft was destroyed today after his successful ejection.") If your wife is feeling like the culture in her squadron is unacceptable, she has a right and a duty to say so to the commander. If he tells her to pound sand, thats exactly what the IG is for, especially if there are career implications from her voicing her discomfort (deployments, Q2/3, etc). That is the culture that, to me, is patently unacceptable in the USAF. Also, her commander would be an idiot not to immediately and aggressively address it, especially given the current climate. I am lucky that I haven't been in a scenario like the shitty one you describe. I recognize that it would be socially difficult and require a lot of moral courage to do that. However, there are mechanisms in place to fix this if she wants. Not using these mechanisms is part of the frustration for some people with the TSgt Smith story, she never told anyone at the time she was offended, she waited 16 years and sold her story to huffpo. (Not the assualts part of her story, the Korea / Shaw parts, obviously the assault parts are horrible and should've been addressed regardless of time delay) My point is, there is a slim possibility that people are too oblivious to read into her social signs and recognize they've crossed a line. That being said, from your end, the line to avoid crossing is to force her or your lifestyle choices onto others the way she feels theirs are forced onto her. So, maybe a mandatory binge drinking fest every Friday isn't the big one but neither is removing all booze from the squadrons and shutting down call signs and roll calls, in my opinion. A roll call / naming / first friday is supposed to build esprit de corps in a squadron by providing a closed venue to sport-bitch about support agencies, complain about how no one understands, and tell funny stories about each other. It is supposed to be a good time, and let everyone blow off some steam. About half the time I don't drink, and I still love hearing my friends' stories. We work hard, we spend a lot of time together, there needs to be a controlled environment to air grievances. If that's not what those social events are in her squadron then the mayor (and by default) sq cc are fucking it up wholesale.

Just wondering, How is calling a squadron mate a bitch for asking you to not tell a graphic story of a one-night-stand blowjob in front of her going to make you keep that warrior edge? Or then Bro tells that story of being asked to stop to the ADO who Q3'd said female for not having a checklist in hand, CC said he wouldn't have done it, but didn't change anything. This ADO also determines the deployment assignments. The same guy who said females who deployed together previously can't deploy together anymore since they need experience on different crews. However, Bros get to go with their buds whenever they'd like. If I didn't hear it and see it first hand I'd call BS on that story above. Unfortunately I can't. There is some stupid BS that came out of that Great AF Porno hunt (family pics, books), but at least where I'm at and the wife works, there's a problem. I find it hard to believe it's relegated to our little piece of the AF. Wrapping these traditions in the "warrior ethos" is not examining them critically (as SOS in-corr/ERAU would have you do) to see what value, if any, they provide. Nope. I DD when I can, and enjoy the camaraderie when a few coworkers get a little tanked. I don't have a Sq bar, but if I did I would be there on occasion.

I would normally tell someone with a simple musculoskeletal complain to wait it out and have the Air Force take care of it for you once you arrive at training, however your case seems fairly severe. Continue to be seen by your Ortho, and ask him whether he thinks you could/should delay any procedures for another 6 months, and possibly request to seen a Chiro. My guess from your story though, is you ought to notify your recruiter ASAP, and undergo the surgery/treatment, and delay your OTS for another 12-18 mo.s. Do whatever your ortho tells you. This really sucks, but my prediction is that if you delay care, you'll be in a worse position in 9 months, and be forced out of service, rather than ideally recovering and being in the best physical condition to succeed later.

This is what bothered me the most, especially seeing how the passenger compartment was consumed by flames after everyone evacuated. Unless you have a small child in your bag, nothing in that bag is worth keeping anyone else inside that tin can of a time bomb a second longer than necessary.

If these clowns really are who they claim to be, they probably enjoy getting to piss on the masses via an anonymous Internet forum as much as we like to vent our frustration to supposed members of upper mgmt. Glad you get to live out your fantasy and tell the people on the backs of which you've climbed up the corporate ladder how you REALLY feel about them.

Nice. Start with "cram them up your ass", follow with advice on how to engage on this forum and then tell me how to spend my time. I'm not impressed.

Thanks for the compliment. I have figured it out. Separating soon!

Somebody delete pawnman's post ^^ before anybody gets any bright fuckin ideas.

FWIW I had a microdiscectomy for a large L5S1 herniation in the middle of pilot training. 6 months later I was waivered on a FC1 and have had no issues with Gz/etc (FC2U should be pretty easily waived) I believe my initial herniation happened in SERE, prior to IFS. Stuck it out for 6 months, but in the end the pain was too much and I got an MRI. I was in surgery 2 days later. OTS is going to suck with an injury like that.

Valid at Pickle? Yes. Valid at Termination? Yes. Color that man white! Cheers, Cap-10

Curious if you think that the same training and money that got sunk in a 6 year commitment is equivalent to the training sunk into an 8 or 10 year commitment? Even with inflation taken into account, UPT costs come at an enormous bargain for a 10 year commitment. Not saying we aren't accountable for what we sign, but if you're going to use a cost argument to disallow Palace Chase, you're off base. The Air Force is coming out on top of that contract. Guys nowadays are doing the same training that guys did 15 years ago, but getting stuck with a much longer commitment, and a much rougher work environment. It feels as if upper level leadership is forgetting where it came from. My $.02.

It's classic knee-jerk over compensation. Rather than focus on the few bad apples, or illegal sexual assault, or even just inappropriate sexual conduct the management (as demonstrated by recent posts) has WAY overshot and wants to crush anything that is even vaguely related to sexuality at all. Welcome to institutional compulsory über-prudishness everyone. Next few years ought to be awesome.

Am I correct in assuming that you would consider Friday night in the squadron bar "at work"?

Or just don't screw up things the first time and you won't have anything to fix. Technique only.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I didn't get that the Asiana pilots were still talking to Tower after they'd already crashed. I thought all that comm was during the approach. Never occurred to me they would still be talking on the radios after that crash.

Only makes my decision that much easier in the near future.

Seriously? Because if there are too many pilots on AD and you let some go to the ARC where there are not too many pilots then there would no longer be too many pilots on AD yet you'd still get payback on the training and have the experienced services of those pilots available in both an operational and strategic reserve capacity. You do know that ARC guys are still on the team, right? Plus, if you believe Chang there is talk of a RIF otherwise known as non-voluntary separation. Always a winner for morale of the force. Plus, palace chase is free. If Chang is right about this "glut" of pilots, then it's a win-win. Good think we are all so educated with advanced degrees from ERAU. It creates great "thinkers" and problem solvers.

Those ATC guys did a great job! Kudos to the SFO Tower folks this afternoon... true professionals!

No - you are welcome to have all the esoteric discussions ya want. I simply find it boring. The thread on drindls is much more entertaining and time better spent. (By the way - M2 - thank you!)

I don't know enough to say he is guilty or innocent. I do know that this is more the heart of the problem than any number of songbooks, pin-ups, or dirty jokes: senior leaders get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and their "punishment" is the same retirement most people are working towards. The fact that senior leaders, when found out in these sorts of scandals, are "punished" by not having to work and continuing to make more on a monthly basis than the majority of the enlisted force just for breathing. It doesn't exactly send the message the Air Force is looking for. Again, I don't know if this is the case for Wilkerson. I'm sure we'll find out. But just allowing senior officers to retire isn't exactly "holding them accountable".

Glideslopes for both 28L & 28R have been OTS in the NOTAMS since 1 Jun. Possible poorly flown visual approach?

Holy shit, they just showed a picture a passenger took. There were fuckers carrying their bags. If I am getting out of an aircraft that just crashed and you grab your bag, you are getting throat punched.

Sarcasm detector inop in the "OFF" position.

Shack! Liquid, We all know what ADSC stands for. The regulations for ADSC's cleverly keep growing to keep us all bound as indentured servants. We are an all-volunteer force partly because the regulations keep changing creatively trapping folks well beyond a reasonable service period. We keep entertaining and implementing force management measures (RIFs); why have we been so restrictive on Palace Chase for at least the last 5 years? Why do falsify and lie about the VSP? Guys here mention this because of the hints at a RIF next year. I thought that you and GC keep telling us how much folks are free to leave, and how Big Blue needs this to happen to clear out the glut of pilots. Help us help you. You'd be surprised how many folks are ready to explore new frontiers outside of the service. You say that Palace Chase would just be an easy way for the "disgruntled and under-performers" to leave. You sir are so mistaken. When the indentured servitude contracts expire, I am afraid that those under-performers are the ones that remain en mass. Not all, but the majority of your super-stars and real leaders will move along quietly. You are correct in that some of those do fit the disgruntled category. I think the percentage of those that are disgruntled is rapidly increasing in recent years. Maybe I am wrong about folks leaving in droves in the near future. Time will tell. Many folks that I know, and myself included, are badly needed in the communities we are in. I am not bragging or boasting, just pointing out that some of your disgruntled leaders are of extreme value and take their jobs or positions of leadership very seriously. I do. We work our hearts out to hack the mission and take care of those below us. We check the boxes because if we decide to stay, we want to be in a position to excel and fix problems that we bitch about here. We learned that on BODN from old crusty dudes and their invaluable wisdom. Almost all of us are certain that we will leave at the first opportunity. Some of us are overtly disgruntled and express this, most are not. I feel that General Welsh understands this but I am also afraid the problem is bigger than anyone can fix in the short term. He has quite a bit on his plate which is the result of cumulative leadership failures before him as well as on the civilian front. Leaders that do not recognize the "bleeding talent" problem will be unable to fix it, period dot. Kind of like an alcoholic that fails to recognize his addiction. I don't have a personal vested interest in whether or not folks stay or leave. Nor do I really care if the airlines start hiring (even though my personal research indicates the hiring will be more notable than any time since 2001). Unlike in the 90's, the longer ADSCs means that many folks will have more powerful resumes for careers well beyond those offered flying airplanes. Folks in this category have been exposed to combat for a decade, and have leadership experiences that will transcend historical data for separating pilots. My resume will be much stronger than if I had left at 8 years of aviation service. As a senior leader, I hope you will sincerely reflect upon the culture change and state of morale within your up-and-coming AF leaders. We will do fine on the outside, I promise. We will excel where ever we decide to go. If our country calls, we will stand by her side and help win our next war. But, we will not lay down and continue to rot in a culture we find ourselves disassociated with, or in a service we find ourselves at odds with. Believe it or not, the USAF really does need many of us. Nothing personal in these opinions. The USAF is a machine without emotion; we will take GC's thank you and move on to new opportunities. Internet blogs are a great place to bitch and attack folks you don't agree with. You've been attacked like many others. Like many others have commented, I am very glad to see senior leaders jump in here and expose the inner-workings of the AF and expose current AF beliefs. Your inputs here, while contested and attacked, are welcome and appreciated. A lot of what you say is valid although it may hurt some feelings here or there. Whether or not many of us stick around is to be determined, but I care about my country and the service that better focus on defending her when called upon. Even when I leave, I would love to know that eventually the AF unscrews itself and the Big Blue ship is righted. Please be humble enough to weed through the information posted here and pull out the nuggets of value that can help fix OUR problems in the USAF. Beer is empty and post is done.

God I love tits. And beer. Sue me, Gen Chang. You pussy.

Holy testicles batman. Let's cut the bullshit then. We have some fundamental disagreements, no big deal. But good lord, sack the ###### up and put your money where your mouth is. You want us out? Deal. I will be much obliged to you if you would sign my waiver personally. You make it happen on your end, and you'll have my separation papers tomorrow. But don't sit here and vilify the people who put up the ######ing numbers that got you promoted in the first place and then string them along. As for the sexual assault witchhunt, if you think it starts with pictures and songs, I do feel sorry for you. This is a leadership issue. 1. Leaders need to step up and foster an environment in which this shit is handled appropriately. And, I can promise you that such is not the case, despite your boisterous but effectually flacid efforts. 2. Leaders need to stop deviant sexual behavior themselves if they want subordinates to follow, something about setting the example. 3. Leaders need to devote themselves to understanding the nature of this problem. Have you read the annual SAPR report and internalized key statistics from 2006-2012? Because I sure as shit did. Have you given any critical thought to how you, as a leader, can address these problems starting with the most statistically vulnerable times and situations? Because I sure as shit have. Have you discovered that the vast majority of sexual assaults occur in the Army, perpetrated by a senior male NCO against a junior enlisted female (most often between the hours of 6pm Friday and 6am Monday. Contrast this with deployed statistics which show little regard to days the week)? Have you read the Gallup poll (2010 i think but i forget off the top my head) of victims asking them which action they felt would be most effective at mitigating sexual assault? Overwhelmingly, they responded that a change in culture would be most effective. Oh wait, no they didn't, leadership enforcing standards, protecting victims, and prosecuting perpetrators was what they thought would be most effective. And by prosecuting, I mean following the law, as it was intended. You don't have the right to strip someone of their rights simply due to an accusation of sexual assault, nor does congress get to throw it's political muscle into the discussion to make itself feel better. But, that's a whole different issue So, How about for now ill just go learn up myself with that fantastic new CBT that you all feel is a suitable substitute for substantive leadership and try as hard as I can to resist the urge to sexually assault the next woman I see (that's sarcasm by the way, no need to actually send the FBI pre crime unit after me please). In the meantime, myself and several others on here are eagerly awaiting your separation approval letter via PM. Let's just leave it at that shall we?

Back to a topic a little more lighter... Yoga vs Alcohol

Wow, brilliant analysis there Chang!!! So what you are saying is that if young pilots start seeing guys who have 18 yrs in getting shown the door with nothing but about $100,000 in separation pay that they may be CONCERNED the AF is being disingenuous??? I really hope this type of utterly clueless understanding of our crew force mentality isn't common with the people in A1 who are anywhere near this decision process. If Big Blue started cutting guys between 16-18 years the only guys you will get to stay 1 day past their ADSC are the morons who are so out of touch with reality that they think this is actually a good idea.

GC This is one pilots point of view. Tracking that we should remove emotion from this discussion, but in that statement I feel we're missing something valuable. Real leaders understand that we are never dealing with individuals just evaluating this decision from a financial point of view or in black and white, even if the bean counters are just looking at money and end strength numbers. I value realism and appreciate the bean counting realism you're offering, but it's a little out of touch. If the bonus isn't the place to show appreciation for a pilot's service, then please use this pilot's forum to find the words it's missing. For example you touched on it with keep the faith, but then erased it with the thank you for your service pilot pansy, that sucked and I know you're better than that. Our inspiration still lies in the warrior ideal, and we need leaders than can inspire that image in our folks, so they can go out and confidently prosecute the mission, bonus or no. This talk about the mission and the people, and finding the right balance of numbers that the nation needs to meet emerging threats from a statistical point of view misses a lot of the quirks that can't be quantified. IMO, we've created entire staffs to work issues that would not exist if the Air Force could inspire it's people by giving them an image of a future that they could project themselves on without cringing, gah. The bonus, why does it exist? The answer to that question seems innumerable but ultimately it's because A1 won't start with the people, its most valuable resource. A1 is starting with numbers to fix the numbers. Start with the people, and you'll end with the mission complete and we'll be thankful all the while. If the retention numbers go up for 11Xs it might also be because Welsh is inspiring, and the bonus is a sideshow that will catch a few on the fencers, but for the most part it's just extra. Check out Steve Jobs here talking about the future of Apple and its people, start at 7:40. It's a message you began to touch on, stick around till at least 12:55. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM4tAXacpVE It's all about end strength numbers and money if I hear it correctly, we'll address the problems as they arise. My opinion is that the Air Force has failed to inspire it's people beyond the initial sacrifice without incentive, and that's a problem the Air Force cannot address with more money at ANY time, hell attempting to fix it with money is part of the problem! If leaders could inspire us all with their words and offer the quality of life that would make the word of the day gratitude there would be no bonus. However, offering a cynical remedy for the disease of cynicism isn't much of a cure. There is a more positive way, just get creative. A1 doesn't have the cajones to get rid of the bonus, that's how cynical A1 is. That 225K$ could be spent on a tremendous educational experience sending every 11X through a great school at the end of their commitment and make the covenant more valuable, while emphasizing the first 10-12 years as a chance to develop tactical expertise without that dreaded AAD distraction. It would be a transition. It would give Airmen a break at a breaking point and invest that same money in a less cynical way. It has the added benefit of getting our message and real leadership experience out in the university setting, attracting and inspiring even more future leaders. It would give folks the chance to add value to their cranium before they go back to ops or staff. That would be a positive message and a score for leadership and the development of critical thinkers. A hell of a sell to congress and a great message to young people wanting to have more options when they don't have the pleasure of serving any more. Thinkers and doers sir, that's what we need, the combo of art and science--develop it. We're worth something more thoughtful. The take it or leave it, there's the door mantra is so cynical, we want leaders that are worth our service and motivate us to follow. The decision to stay or go for a pilot whose commitment is up represents a turning point not only for the individual, but for the entire Air Force that will exist with each individuals continued service, or without it. We mercs will try and evaluate this decision with heartfelt gratitude and more grace than Big blue evaluates us. We'll try and ignore the 3 AM wakeups with tremendous anxiety and myriad images of an uncertain future, the snapshot of the kids and spouses faces that run through our minds with every deployment and just make it a financial decision. All I'm saying is that if you've come to preach to Nineveh, I hope you've spent time sounding the deep in the belly of the whale.