Leaderboard

When you were a Captain, you'd give no-notice ground evals to your fellow Captains? Are you fucking kidding me? I'm sure you didn't do that Majors and Lt Cols. And who cares about LTs. That leaves fellow Captains...your fucking peer group. I would have laughed at you. I actually laugh at you now. The Air Force is fucked. Glad it got rid of me!

Liquid, your remarks are truly representative of the AF at-large. I say that because I find myself casually nodding in agreement at some of the things you say, only to read some of your true gems and find myself wanting to smash my screen because of your absolute disconnection with reality... much like a number of policies/talking points I see coming from upper management. The only thing that will keep me from punching is more good bosses like the one I have now. That's it. Other than that, this organization has become just like any other "job" out there--the fun has largely been sucked out of it. I'm not even buying the "working with good dudes" part anymore. I'll make other buddies elsewhere. You characterize it that way yourself by repeatedly calling it "work". It used to be called a "squadron". Now its a "workplace". I would actually take a pay cut if that means I have the ability to control my own future. And no, I'm not necessarily one of the "disgruntled employees" that you and your peers would write off. I've actually done/am doing pretty well so far, but hearing the Big Blue spin of guys are getting out because they are "bored" boggles my mind. How about "our organization has trampled these guys for 12+ years with ops tempo and stupid ass rules... Hard work has been rewarded with more hard (and mindless, queepy) work. ...now they are seeing the light." Yeah, much more realistic. Your all-volunteer force has been getting worked over and getting kicked in the junk in the name of service to God and country for too long now. People just aren't buying it anymore. Good luck trying to make it more attractive to new accessions in the future and trying to sway those guys on the fence as those ADSCs run out.

Seriously? You must have been loved by your bros back in the day. That is the saddest thing I've heard this week. Nobody here believes for a minute that you're all business during the duty day. You either are disliked by everyone behind your back, or you simply don't have any friends with an attitude like that. People are going to talk about what's important to them when at work, while working... Impossible to avoid, and you're crazy for demanding it. Maybe you're just not being clear. Maybe you meant that significant time should not be devoted to it while during duty hours? Maybe you were just referring to a two hour whining session? If that's what you were saying, then I think most reasonable people here would agree with you. If not, you need to really take a look at your expectations, and ask yourself, "am I really that d bag that I used to hate because he 'didn't get it'?" I like a lot of what you have to say, but you occasionally lose sight of reality! That is what is driving people out. Leaders that talk the good talk a lot, but then wipe out everything they've previously said with one new policy, asinine comment about what they're allowed to talk about at work, etc. you guys really don't get it. I seriously wonder how a guy like me is going to survive in this AF? I'm going to school, I'll probably end up running a sqdn in a few years, and I'm going to quickly be fired for not toeing the party line because that line is ridiculous. I'll lay it out for my guys, as to what people like you expect from them, and then I'll let them know what is important to me. Nobody is going to get special treatment for the crap that gets people strats right now. I'm going to have to fight my boss and his boss to justify why my number one guy is the best tactical guy in the sqdn, who is well rounded. Well rounded to me doesn't include some BS degree or CFC volunteer, but a solid leader who mentors young pilots, makes sure the sqdn is running smoothly, and has his personal life in order. That probably means I'll never go further than SQ/CC if I even survive that without getting fired. Sorry, I'm rambling, but you really make people think about what they want to get out of this AF. I guess that's a good thing... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Jesus Tapdancing Christ. How about someone just says, "Hey how were we doing SOS three years ago? Ok, blow the dust off and let's do that again." The USAF: making shit more difficult than it needs to be since 1947.

My pilot training commitment was up in 1998. I aligned my tuition assistance and PCS commitments with my pilot training one so I had options. Airline opportunities were good from 1996-2001. Plenty of good dudes got out and plenty stayed in. There was a lot discussion about quality of life, pay, AF bullshit, bad leadership, retirement benefits, etc. The biggest factor impacting pilot retention is airline hiring demand, period. The airline job and lifestyle are very appealing to many people. I stayed in because I was good at it, I enjoyed it, and I didn't want to drag a black suitcase behind me on the way to a hotel for 10-14 days a month. I liked flying in the Air Force and the additional money and free time weren't that important to me. I decided to stay in before the bonus was offered. I took it, but I didn't stay in because of it. 9/11 changed everything for me. We saw many people quit their airline jobs to return and serve. After 9/11 I decided to continue serving until I was told my talents and service were no longer needed. We are a nation at war with an enemy determined to kill our families and destroy our way of life. I serve because someone needs to defend this great nation from the evil assholes that will attack us whenever they can. I'm still good at my job, I still enjoy it and not many people have the opportunity to do what I do. I enjoy taking the fight to the enemy and kicking the shit out of him on a regular basis. We are on the cusp of a big airline hiring surge and we will see retention drop. Good people will do what is best for them. All of those who leave service for other options should be genuinely thanked for their service and assisted with the transition to civilian life. Most will be combat hardened veterans who have earned the respect of a grateful nation and Air Force. They are not "quitters" or disloyal, they are incredible men and women who volunteered to serve honorably and have more than paid back what they owe for the training, resources and experience the AF invested in them. They are also not all disgruntled, or are quitting because senior leadership has lost their minds, or they are in mourning because their traditions have been ripped from them. We shouldn't attempt to broadly characterize why some don't stay and we shouldn't broadly categorize why people stay in. The reasons are complex and usually based on the individual's preferences more than institutional advantages or shortcomings. We should not tolerate talk and actions related to post-service employment at work. Do the f*ing job you are paid to do and plan for your post-service job on your own time. Stop the airline conversations in the pilot shop and make sure people are earning their damn paychecks. Flying hours and modernization will continue to be cut. Afghanistan and deployments will wind down. Staffs will be reduced. School opportunities will continue to be cut. Congress and POTUS will continue to cut defense spending and expect reduced costs. The all-time high retention rates we have seen will drop and we will have pilot production and retention challenges. Our all volunteer force will step up and meet the demands our nation asks us to meet. It will all work out.

This. Have seen tons of dudes asking about how to get picked up for the 6th SOS, AIS, Olmstead, white jets, green door, etc. etc. Should we not be having those discussions either? And if it's ok to talk about moving on into those kinds of things, it should also be perfectly ok to talk about getting picked up by the airlines or B-school or Home Depot or whatever else is out there in the civilian world. I agree that people shouldn't be spending an inordinate amount of time doing non-work related stuff while "on the clock" so to speak but to say it's totally inappropriate for people to discuss it at all (with the threat of a no-notice ground eval) is kind of a jack-booted response. Absolutely...not even specifically for liquid but for most senior leaders. Most come off as intelligent and well meaning, I agree with a lot of what they say and are trying to do, but then there's something said that's so far out of left field that I do a double-take and end up wondering WTF. Seen way more of this than plain bad apples, most senior leaders I think suffer from being out of touch more than being ill intentioned or bad at their jobs. I think, as it's been pointed out, that the Chief's message in saying this was to Congress, not to the Airmen. It's an easy story to tell Congress that his pilots are getting "bored" because Congress shit the bed and couldn't come up with a predictable enough flow of money to keep everyone flying at a reasonable rate. Don't think CSAF would, in a message to us, start to think we're bored after a decade plus of war. Amen...I'm still a fan of the military as a career choice and think I could have a good career if I choose to stay, but the grass looks greener on the other side at his point and I can't say I've been exactly incentivized to stay by any of the AF's terrible personnel management decisions. I'm just not buying the idea that I need to participate in a choose your own adventure novel where I'm a character rather than the reader nor do I buy into even an ounce of guilt for punching at the end of my commitment. +1 that I'd take a pay cut to get even an small degree of control over my career path, which ironically is exactly the situation I'm expecting to get as a civilian starting next year. I've got 100 pilots in my squadron Bob, 100. No shit..the whole building is the "pilot shop." Your techniques of trying to contain any pot-stirring talk of airline hiring don't really work under those circumstances. Just a thought to add to what I said above; unless someone crosses the line and isn't doing his or her job they should be free to talk about whatever they want in terms of their future career options. Totally disagree. I brought up, in private, a very specific issue that liquid has the ability to affect and he told me that he'd look into it and try to make things better. Exactly what I'd expect from a good leader and I hope he's able to make a positive difference. Don't knock someone specifically unless you've taken a problem to them personally and they've refused to act or even acknowledge the issue. I get that most of us here are fairly jaded with our leaders' ability to hear the concerns of the common man and act but generalizing about one person who actually had the balls to spend time mixing it up with us here seems like the shoe doesn't fit.

I think I see Blue, he looks glorious!

Recently declassified CIA document on the U-2 & Oxcart (1954-1974): https://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/DOC_0000190094.pdf

Liquid, I warned you a long time ago about attempting to “re-blue” folks on this forum. While I don’t speak for anyone but myself, I hope that most on here are at least appreciative of the fact that you’ve taken a step that most of your cohorts won’t – you listen to what people say. However, I have seen little-to-no attempt on your part to say “great point – I’m going to tell my boss about your comment.” Instead, you demonstrate your disconnection by repeating buzzwords and AF corporate-speak. I have my doubts about you being a “good dude.” Telling people they shouldn’t be allowed to talk about the airlines at work. Administering no-notice evals to your peers. The list goes on. Good dudes don’t do that. Do you tell your bosses to shut their pie holes when they’re discussing the next triathlon/marathon/half-marathon they’re training for? Doubt it. I see way too many people talking about that useless stuff and never once mentioning their training plan for their student. It used to be NASCAR, then it was biking, now it’s triathlons, marathons, etc. I can’t wait to see when the next 4-star decides that they like (fill-in-the-blank) – just watch, you’ll see all their cronies rushing out to buy expensive gear, subscribing to magazines (with no women on the cover of course), and wasting hours at work discussing it. Don’t worry, it won’t actually be a sport, just some form of conditioning that was originally intended to better prepare you for something truly athletic. But we don’t want to do that because someone might sprain an ankle. I have news for you – it IS about the money. You and your fellow “leaders” have dangled the carrot of an active duty retirement in front of your people since day one. There are tens of millions of Americans, most of them less intelligent, less skilIed, less educated, and less motivated than most folks in the AF. Somehow, they manage to feed their families, educate their children, take vacations, enjoy life, and save for retirement. If they can figure it out, so can we. Making service members feel as if they’ll be lost and destitute unless they do 20 years and ensure a paycheck and health care for the rest of their life is almost criminal. Telling them that they shouldn’t discuss future plans is criminal as well. Nice job shaking their hand as they walk out the door at 42-years of age with no job lined up. That WILL leave them lost and destitute. You want to know why people get out? Because they’re not like you and they don’t like you. They want real friends, not temporary friends that the AF pays them to associate with for two years during their command tour, and then move on to a new set of “friends.” They don’t want to be judged against their peers, they want to be appreciated for the skills they bring to the fight. They’re tired of seeing good people lose their careers/upward-mobility over petty incidents while seeing people get promoted 2-below to O-5 for flying nukes across the country (you still haven’t addressed this BTW). You’re responsible for that. Your job is tell your boss that he’s full of shit so your people can execute the mission. If your boss can’t handle that, then he’s a piece of shit and needs to move out of the way. Stop defending the corporation and your boss. Sit down, grab a drink, open your ears, and open your mind. You, the “leadership” keeps telling the “minions” that you’re tired of hearing excuses. Did you ever think that all of your buzzwords and AF corporate-speak are excuses? They are. They are very poor, lame excuses for a lack of courage and leadership. Have you ever seen what happens when a Captain “mentors” an A1C outside of their organization? Several people chimed in to tell you that that Captain is ALWAYS called on the carpet in front of his/her Sq/CC for not playing nice. That’s YOUR fault. You’ve usurped your young officer’s authority and empowered the inexperienced and ignorant. Have you ever “mentored” a Sq/CC for doing this? Have you ever called in that A1C’s Commander? Of course not, you’re too busy writing Taliban-esqe rules for what type of memorabilia, media, and photos are appropriate for the “workplace.”

Great points Champ. I completely agree that we have been trampling good people for 12+ years with high ops tempo and stupid ass rules. I suspect the Chief and SecAF are using the bored descriptions to highlight to congress and the people the absurdity of cutting flying hour programs and readiness. We pay for the aircraft and the people, can't cut them in reduced budgets, and have to cut how much we fly them. The justifiable fear of a hollow force, one too large to keep ready, is a big concern. Maybe bored sounds better to them than disgruntled, discouraged or disgusted. Throughout my career I have tried to attack the problem of too many stupid rules. I rarely put out any policy memos or additional restrictions to current guidance. I always made sure everyone understood the waiver authority and who had the authority to violate policies and guidance. In our current compliance at all costs climate, we have lost the art of bending the rules and operating in the gray area. Most guidance can be interpreted to your advantage. 10 JAGs will give 10 different recommendations, so you need to have a JAG focused on the mission and willing to articulate why you interpreted guidance to get the mission done. We need to know and teach the difference between not checking to make sure nukes are on your aircraft and knowing when to violate policy to save money, mission and lives. Unfortunately, with the current global threats and challenges and continued fiscal constraints, it isn't going to get easier in the future. I agree that we need to cut the mindless, queepy work and put the fun back into the squadrons. That fun just can't include strippers, porn and cute word games anymore.

So it's different if your next job is on Active Duty? When I was the OG Exec, my boss spent who knows how many hours on the phone with the Wing/CC and NAF/CC and others working his next assignment. Every other O-6+ I have ever been around has done the same thing. Hell, basically everyone I know works their own assignment. Somehow these people working active duty assignments are better than the guys working jobs outside the Air Force? Seems sort of stupid to me. Either you are 100% focused on your current job 100% of the time, or you aren't. Why does it matter what the next job is? I don't think people staying on Active Duty should be able to work assignments if the people getting out are not allowed to do the same. The message that sends is "people that separate suck."

Penn State fan. What are the chances she's over 18?

Chicken Beef same same.

Hey new guy, tell us about yourself...

This is really not true. I don't know if you are at Kandahar or Bagram, but if you're at Bagram send me a PM and we'll sit down for a few minutes and talk about it. You have a decent grasp on the confounding variable of power in the Indy08 situation (although it is the spin it would have contributed to, not the stall itself)...but there was, as has been non-sensically addressed here, a number of others that made the chain that eventually couldn't be broken. It is not acceptable for either squadron to have the subject be taboo and equally unacceptable to even make you feel like it is. As with any other control inputs, it is the performance of the aircraft that is what's important. That mantra is applicable, however it takes a little more than just the blind application of mantras or even procedures to be a good aviator. While the application of boldface (or critical action procedures, if you will) are important to apply in a timely fashion, they still should not be done without critical thought. Doing things without thinking first gets you killed, in the MC-12 and every other aircraft ever made. We have gone out and induced approach to stalls in the mission orbit climb profile and it is very easy (and disturbingly sad) to recover from. However, if you let the autopilot trim the climb, "relaxing" will do little to nothing for you. Rolling wings level will always help, as it will direct the lift where you really need it...while this is not necessary for recovery, it should always be done when available. The power at a low airspeed is needed to not lose altitude, but must be applied very judiciously and with the nose down trim...no rush, there is plenty of time...IF YOU PUT THE NOSE DOWN. I've seen a number of similar situations where the lack of auto-throttles have led to rapidly decaying airspeed, with the autopilot ferociously trimming nose up. Put the nose back to where you need it to be and the situation begins to resolve itself. Control and performance...it very much is airmanship 101. We should learn everything we can each time. I don't believe one should focus solely on one thing or the other. Some in the MC-12 community has learn a great deal from this tragedy, while unfortunately other have not. However, I would argue those people can't be helped until they help themselves first. This was never once said to me during IQT. Had I not asked, I'm not sure anything about the flight guidance panel would have been said. However, the flip attitude of "it's airmanship plain and simple" is a little rough. Maybe that's just due to my current position, but I think even you (with an amazing 600 hours in type) could learn at least a thing or two. Bendy

Not so, I have about 600 hours in type, and I'm very familiar with how p factor works. In this exact instance, how they got into the stall is a more causal factor than the recovery procedures. Maybe the syllabus has changed, but I remember a distinct emphasis on not putting the autopilot into a VVI climb mode, to preclude this exact scenario. In either case, poor recovery procedures & a lack of understanding how the plane was stalled didn't help.

These guys started acting like this immediately after poking his finger through the toilet paper.

Finkle is Einhorn!

Ok, everyone say it with me: "MAX, RELAX, ROLL" There, sign the GTAR, you're all current for another RAP cycle. This isn't rocket surgery, it's a fucking stall. Procedures may vary slightly from airframe to airframe (P-factor & whatnot), but the basic principles of aerodynamics don't change: if a wing(s) is stalled, increase airspeed & decrease your AoA. This is day one UPT stuff. Yes it should've practiced occasionally, but I don't need a quarterly class to tell me that trees get big when I push over & trees get little when I pull back.

I personally consider Francis Gary Powers to be one of the most important Americans to have ever lived. His fateful flight ended up serving as the catalyst that propelled our space-based surveillance efforts. Those early programs created not only valuable intelligence, but firmly cemented our place at the head of the table in space operations. The ability to utilize space for intelligence, communication, navigation, weather, etc. has helped America remain a super power economically and militarily. Without him being shot down, who knows what the future would have looked like. He's a hero in my book.

Sidebar: Never heard of pining? Tulsa used it correctly.

How do you know when there's a nav at a party? Trick question, navs don't get invited to parties.

What a load of shit. I didn't even make it all the way through the article. Is there one shred of empirical evidence anywhere in there? If GO's are being forced out at an unprecedented rate, surely this could be documented and compared with historical rates. If morale is at an "all time low" this implies that you have quantified and compared today's morale with historical rates. Personally, I think the AF is going to shit, but it has almost nothing to do with the POTUS. There were useless, asinine policies under Bush and there are useless asinine policies under Obama.

What's the worst thing about eating bald pu$$y? Putting the diaper back on...

Nobody cares what you talk about on your airline job. You should not be paid to work on your next job while at work on active duty. Do that on your own time. Yeah, yeah, we have transition programs. Do it then too. It is incredible how many people bitch about how hard it is to find the time to knock out AAD/PME/DTS/CBTs/fill in the blank additional duties and how much is distracts from their -1 studies, warfighting focus and professional development, but think it is perfectly fine to surf the net, network and bullshit about their ATP and interview. Make up your ing minds. But make sure you do the job the taxpayer expects you to do first. When I was a Captain and encountered pilots chatting about their airline prep in the pilot office, I would give them a no-notice ground eval to check their systems knowledge and combat readiness. It was amazing how fast that reduced the around time and set the standard that we actually focused on at work. Remember, while you are planning your next career, there are plenty of other people in the squadron that will be there for a long time and could actually benefit from your experience more than hearing the details of how and why you are separating.