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Showing content with the highest reputation on 11/25/2015 in all areas

  1. Surprised at some of the comments here. Some facts to consider: 1. Turkey routinely enters sovereign Greek airspace, despite repeatedly being asked not to. The Greeks don't shoot them down, because that would not be a proportional response... just like shooting down a Russian aircraft that is clearly not heading north into Turkish airspace, but is instead briefly crossing a small tit of airspace, is not a proportional response 2. The timings and reported geometry of the intercept and shootdown are revealing. By the Turks' own admission, the Su-24 was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds, but it had been back in Syrian airspace for 40 seconds when it was hit and downed. You don't have to be a genius to work out that in a rear-aspect AIM-9 engagement, the shot was taken when the Fencer's airspace incursion was already over, and meant that the F-16s were probably in Syrian airspace when they engaged. That makes the Turks' response a punishment for the incursion, not an attempt to prevent it, and that constitutes an aggression that we all could really do without. Further, if you look at the data that the Turks have released, it's clear that the Fencer was pointing at the border for less a minute, which makes their claims of 10 warnings in five minutes sound suspect 3. The idea that Russia is a de facto supporter of ISIS because it is targeting the Turkmenistans, FSA and other rebel groups in the north is as much of a nonsense as the idea that the groups the West is supporting are 'moderate'. These so-called moderates are the same ones who shoot pilots in parachutes and behead children for being the wrong type of Muslim.
    5 points
  2. Russia is NOT a de facto supporter of IS. This situation is more complicated than a binary paradigm can explain. I think this was a foolish move by Turkey. Just because you have the right doesn't mean you necessarily should. Besides we knowingly violate airspace too, if this is the new standard we'll eventually be on the receiving end.
    2 points
  3. What's within their rights and what is the politically (strategically) smart thing to do may have been obscured by Erdogan's new found political security, longstanding hatred of Assad and support for any group willing to dislodge him. After the turkey-shoot, king Abdullah II (a huge US fan) and Putin met where the king offered his support and touted his country's strong relationship with Russia. Now what?
    1 point
  4. Does nobody remember that this is not the first incident? I haven't seen any media outlet include it in their coverage. There was an incursion back in October that was 'pushed' back by F-16s on the Turkish side. They could have downed the Russian aircraft then, but did not. Instead they took the passive approach and Erdogan released a statement which made clear that they would not hesitate to defend their borders in the future. Russia apologized and said it wouldn't happen again. Now it has, and Turkey responded exactly as they said they would. Not much to complain about from the Russians, regardless of whether it complicates things. Additionally, when you're a country which has made a routine out of military aircraft flights near foreign airspace for the sole sake of seeing how much provocation you can get away with, you lose the benefit of the doubt when one of your aircraft accidentally strays over an international border.
    1 point
  5. No, but a similar offense would sure as hell get you kicked out of Afghanistan in 2012.
    1 point
  6. Fighter Sweep Coverage More accurate than anything CNN will add.
    1 point
  7. Ironic I got this in some random travel business email this am, though the shootdown probably isn't one of the advertised surprises.
    1 point
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