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I had a long rebuttal to your post in mind..,. but figured it would be more productive to open a nice bottle of Cabernet. No worries... I'll hit the gun range after church on Sunday.

Exactly, and you are being very generous as to the 6-9 minute response time. Given that half of the law enforcement agencies in Bexar county showed up for this, I am seriously doubting that a structured response will occur within less than 30 minutes. Truth be told, we are extremely lucky that this individual didn't go on a shooting spree before ending his own life. Had he not killed himself after shooting his squadron/cc, he could have easily killed another 20-30 people before chances are he would have been stopped. And even more truth here, in 2005 the Supreme Court has ruled that the police did not, repeat NOT have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm (Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748). I work with law enforcement at the local and Federal levels, and while I have great respect for them I also realize I need to be responsible for my own survival. Plus, the police come in varying degrees of competence, I probably shoot better than 50-75% of the officers I know and I sure as hell do it a lot more often. As for "being armed when the cops show up," it's no different for those who carry off base. Would that be a concern? Sure. Would that be a factor in keeping me from carrying? No damn way! US Code 18 Sec 930 only prohibits the carrying of personally-owned firearms in Federal facilities, which are buildings. The Army has regulations against weapons on base, but the USAF does not, it's up to the base commander to make that decision. Dyess did lead the way in allowing licensed individuals who work on base to bring and keep firearms in their vehicles while at work. It was a step in the right direction, although that wouldn't have helped a bit in yesterday's situation; but if what happened at Medina showed us anything it is that: 1) policies prohibiting firearms on base will do absolutely nothing to stop someone with the intent to shoot somebody and 2) if you really place 100% of your own well-being in the security police or civilian on-base cops to protect you, there's a good chance you might one day die regretting that decision! Plus, I have gone through more governmental background checks at the city, state and Federal level than 99% of the people out there (to include sky cops), so if anyone I should be trusted to safely carry a weapon on base (as I am allowed off), it's yours truly! All that said, my condolences to the squadron commander who lost his life yesterday. As a former commander I always knew there was a risk of this when dealing with certain disciplinary actions, and honestly I am almost surprised it hasn't happened more often. I am grateful it hasn't, and hopefully this won't become a trend but the chance is always there. I am sure none of us want to be the next victim. By the way, I had to deal with a dismissal through my company of an employee who, excuse the expression, "went completely off the reservation." I was seriously concerned fro my task lead who had to conduct the dismissal, so I offered to be there as no other company representatives were going to be present. You can bet your ass I came armed, and positioned myself where I could intervene if the individual tried anything. Fortunately, nothing transpired; but I wanted to make I sure I was prepared in case it did...

I agree with MXQA we should let SF protect us. When seconds count, SF is only minutes away! If only they were more worried about security and less about Lts walking back to the pilot projects drunk or pulling over dudes going 3 mph above the speed limit... Thank God this was just one wacko who wanted to off his commander and not a REAL active shooter scenario. The body count would have been much higher.

Just going to throw this out there. Does previous mentioned SrA really carry if it's legal or not when he wants to shoot up the place? You think this TSgt has authorization to carry? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Then I think you'd be surprised who is carrying heat off base. I see nothing wrong with letting people do something that is written into the constitution. Who knows, it might actually deter people from doing things like what happened today.

But they can work on jets?

Except this is another illustration of how not allowing law abiding CHL holders to carry on base just means those who break the law or plan to are the only ones who will be armed. I think this is an example of why we need to be able to carry on base. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dude, still turning wrenches as a civilian, and management sucks out on this side too. If your argument held water I imagine there would be a lot of dead MX officers now. Easiest way to get rid of one is just follow the mx manual and safety rules to the letter and we won't meet a flying schedule or revenue flight. If your icon is correct all you had to do is show up to a backshop or flight line and production stopped. I loved answering QA reports for Amn Snuffy wearing a floppy hat on the flight line with no engines running high noon in the desert and Amn Snuffy just got NJP for 3rd degree sunburn on top of his bald head by working his ass off. You might have been part of the problem. Yes I liked it better when we were under Op's instead of a bunch of spread sheet accountants.

So much stupidity in this post. Did Skycops keep people safe at Ft Hood, Chattanooga or Lackland? The stark reality you speak of is that SF doesn't have access to my vault, but internationals do. SF takes 6-9 mins to respond to anything and their first inclination is to cordon and isolate, not kill the shooter. My glock 42 will do a better job at saving my life than any Skycops will should something terrible happen in close proximity. Allowing operators who employ weapons regularly to carry on base is not "cowboy law" and if you think so, you're a fvcking idiot.

There are bases that allow concealed carry RIGHT NOW with no CBTs, SF training, or "sign-offs". Stop talking out of your ass. And who knew that you can only neg rep 4 times in a 24 hour period.

Then don't be.

I know a guy, in today's Air Force, who just made Senior and received a Art 15 as a TSgt. If some SrA is afraid of getting a career ending EPR, and has a family to feed, stop getting in trouble. Technique only.

Some food for thought: Back when I was operational, the guy I viewed as the best pilot in my community was a Ops-UPT-Ops type. I see the WIC guys as getting very burned out very fast. I'd like to see retention rates among patches vice the rest of the CAF ...I'm sure somebody has that stat.

Yeah, no sh!t. So shouldn't members of the military be trusted MORE than an ordinary citizen? Don't you think that members of the military can responsibly carry on base just like normal citizens (and military members) do every day off base? It's not about fear or lack of trust. I keep a fire extinguisher at home, but that doesn't mean I'm scared of fire or don't have complete trust in the fire department and their ability to do their job.

Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss... - The Who

I'm in the ANG and carry every day. Some on base (SFS idiots) cried about all the buffoonery that would ensue. Fortunately, good leadership told them "noted" and pressed. It's amazing how well things work when you treat adults like adults. Prayers with those at Lackland.

Duck, 11S

I have a concealed carry license issued by the state that I live in. I also have a conceal carry card issued by the AF so that I can conceal carry on the aircraft and do my job. Yet, I can't conceal carry in my truck on base. It makes no sense. I am not interested in carrying my pistol into the office. I am interested in having it my truck for the ride to and from work. Because of my unit's flying schedule, I often find myself driving to work at 4am and from work at 2 am. I usually carry anyway. If I get stopped at the gate, my pistol goes in my flight suit pocket. They don't pat you down.

Thanks. I took your advice and asked around my unit. Local Sq/cc and Og/cc willing to make calls. Og/cc says Wing/cc probably will, too. It is a long shot now, I guess, but I want to go down fighting.

I know when SF responds to an active shooter incident, I don't want to be the guy holding a gun.

I'm a proponent of allowing members carry on base, with caveats. You should be allowed to conceal carry as long as there's a vetting process similar to the civilian sector. Do a background check... no LOR, UIF Art 15? Check. No restraining orders? Check. Passing PT test? I keed, i keed.... Point being we trust SF to protect us with weapons, aircrew regularly carry concealed and overt depending on the situation. If i want to have a CWP off base and carry on base as well it shouldn't be an issue. We're held to a higher standard than regular John Q. Public so give us rights commensurate to our standing in society. Do I think this would have changed the situation that happened at Lackland today? Who knows, but there's one more opportunity to protect yourself that you didn't have before. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Condolences to those affected... We don't know enough details to determine if concealed carry would have positively affected the situation. I do know that I am fairly well trained in marksmanship, basic tactics, and decently well-read on use-of-force theory and law. I can occasionally carry an issued weapon to help protect our strategic assets, but I cannot carry to protect myself and those around me. Tell me how that makes sense? I lost a friend to an active shooter. The police got there within 90 seconds of getting called--well below the national standard for violent crime response. They were able to treat the injured and secure the crime scene, as the crime was over before they got inside the building. Cops are well and good, but they are not superman. My personal safety is MY responsibility, even if the DoD doesn't fully trust me.

No one said they don't trust mx to do their job...I don't really know what that has to do with anything Well, there's the main problem right there

Correct! There... something we can agree on!

I'm not looking to get into a huge political discussion with you. This thread is not the place for that. What I will say is that there are Wing Commanders out there that let people conceal carry on their bases. As someone else said the people with the lowest ASVAB scores are the ones carrying guns on our bases daily (SF), yet combat pilots and other AFSC's who operate very powerful (and expensive) machinery daily and have a lot of power at their fingertips would get in a lot of trouble for carrying a concealed weapon on base. Doesn't make sense. IMO this boils down to the 2nd amendment. I'm for less government and treating people like adults. When you do that people tend to react positively. The AF treats everyone like children who sh!t the bed daily. How is that working out?

Assuming that person is allowed to carry off base, why not let them carry on base? And how exactly do you propose to protect us against the random nut jobs who carry illegally? This whole "cold light of reality" thing is nonsense. You have no idea who is carrying next to you legally or illegally off base, and no idea who is carrying illegally next to you on base. That's the cold reality: you have no idea who is doing what. So why make rules that only responsible people will follow, to their detriment? Your attitude is irresponsible.

And lots of those still won't be allowed to regardless of what happens. Stop with the sky is falling argument. This is not an either / or argument and there are reasonable solutions to this problem. Unfortunately this Airman was breaking the law when he carried this weapon on base in the first place, unless Lackland has recently implemented a new policy we haven't heard about. Explain how not having a concealed carry policy on base did or would have prevented this disaster.

They're shooting there own officers now. I read about toxic leadership but this is getting out of hand . I imagine on base concealed carry is now been buried.

Timeline update for those interested Base process: 2 weeks AFPC: 1.5 weeks SAF/PC: 3.5 weeks Approved ~17 months ADSC with a change in my requested DOS. They shifted it to the right a couple months. In the end, that worked out better for me as now I don't have to sell back any leave. Best of luck to everyone!

The FAIP Mafia is much more powerful than you people will ever know.

The point you're missing is that in Welsh we had a CSAF who actually gets the problems and was unable to affect meaningful change. It could be much, much worse. I was in USAFE when Welsh sent out his "Dear Boss" email and then came and talked to us. Before that talk, I always thought the Generals were just clueless or just out of touch. Trust me, Welsh understands the problems, he is just sadly powerless to fix them. Of course he bows to political pressure on all the social engineering BS, he has to if he wants to have any chance of getting the funding he wants from Congress, or even talk to them about important issues without being overrun with sexual assault questions from Gillebrand. Was Welsh perfect, far from it. My biggest gripe is why the hell are we still doing so many 365s? There are many others. Seeing Welsh's performance over the last 4 years has convinced me that no one can make it better. I think Goldfein will at least minimize the bleeding and damage caused by the next round of politicians, whoever they may be. I hope CH is right.

He hasnt heard the update, but its not a daily conversation topic, so not surprising he hasnt. I'm with you on how much it sucks they fill PIT before they help out test thats nearing 50% manned in vipers. Not a joke, and I'm sure there are more. I would talk to sq/cc and ask him to talk to OG. The OG can call the porch and inquire/push for you to get one of the 7 day opt vipers, if he feels you should be pushed for. I had a buddy years ago who had an IFF assisnment for months and one day it turned into a viper...because so many 7 day opts occured. He didnt even ask to get it changed. Have you expressed interest in WIC to your WO, SQ/CC? I suggest you ask both for honest feedback to have an accurate view of your current flying and officer abilities. Sometimes that feedback may be very different than your self assessment. Not saying it is, but its worth finding out. Even if you dont hear what you want, use it as a way to focus how specifically to better yourself on the pilot and officer side.

They named a three star female the chief of the AF reserve... That's diverse enough I guess. Because politics! Chuck

Well, I hope so - his data is about 72 hours old, and it pisses me off because I was an IP and wanted to go there, but couldn't because filling a PIT slot was higher priority than a test sq job and/or I wasn't good enough/didn't get the push from my leadership (it doesn't hurt my feelings to get honest feedback, but my leadership said I was phenomenal all the way up until the day I walked out the door, so who knows what the truth is). However, to then see that they are getting a non-IP that they didn't interview/request... It's mainly just my envy speaking, but damn is it frustrating. So I hope it is rectified.

Same's true in the Buff world. Many patches get maybe a year outside of WIC, then they get sucked up into various exec jobs. Off the top of my cranium, right now there are guys less than two years out of WIC sitting in wing, NAF and MAJCOM level exec or aide jobs.

Based on red flag, no.

He may sleep well assuming he doesn't have anyone in his past that he has pissed on/off. I know of a dude flying for UAL that was hired after checking "NO" to accidents and incidents. He really pissed on his Reserve unit in general and a couple individuals in particular, was declared persona non grata by the squadron (they even changed the door codes), and someone dropped a dime on him informing UAL of his less than accurate application thus getting him fired from UAL.

Sure...try reading the first 38 pages of this very thread. You'll find all the info you seek.

You are talking citizens..............vs..............members of the US military. Big difference, Are we so scared and not trusting in our base security that we fell the need to arm ourselves? Not being emotional or rhetorical at all...............and I'm definitely not some max zoom gung ho Koolaid drinker.....................never was. I guess current politics will dictate the ways of the AF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sad as it might be.,

Holy Sh*t! And the news is bringing stories about the AF considering personal concealed weapons on base.................. I'm retired 6 years now with 30 years in the MX turning wrenches business. Trust me.............there are LOTS of individuals that you DO NOT want toting guns. That is some scary sh*t.

Hey, I'm a gun owner and I hunt. I'm not here to be some anti-gun wacko. I'm just saying that personal carry has no room on base. The gate guards and SF have the responsibility to keep the base safe. If we can't trust them, where does the trust stop? Are you guys doubting the jets you fly? Has the distrust gone this far? As #d up as the system is, we have to keep the faith and make it work. I still work for DoD, and I still bleed blue. Do we really need Dodge City cowboy law on a base?

So, where does the trust begin? You guys are in it up your your eyeballs as pilots. You are the future leaders of the AF. There are LOTS of folks behind the scenes that let you fly your jet.SF is also a part in this. You have to trust that the jet you are flying will do the job and get you home safely. But you distrust SF base security and feel the need to pack personal weapons? That is sad.

Yes they do. These folks are out there making it happen in a truly horrible management environment. It eats some of them up. My post was not meant to scare you guys away from your MX troops. These guys and gals would give their life for you if it meant a successful and safe flight. But I would not like seeing them carrying heat on base.

Think about a stressed out Senior Airman, at wit's end, looking at a bad and career ending EPR coming with a family to feed, and nowhere to go. This in common place. Do you really want someone like this to be legally able to carry a weapon on base? Really? It's cool to test rights..............it's another thing in the cold light of reality.

OK............you beat me down............. If Big Blue allows personal weapons and sanctions them, I guess I'll be good with that.................IF......it's highly vetted and tightly monitored. Have fun with the torrent of CBTs, SF training, and sign-offs you will need to carry. I'm sure the process will be expedient.

Irresponsible.............NO Carry off base...............fine Carry on base.............that's the job we pay SF to do. You are arguing 2nd Amendment rights vs the stark reality of base security. Do you really want cowboy law brought into an AF base? If so, sad times will be among us...................our SF folks just can't protect us.