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Fearmycessna, don't listen to these naysayers. First off the USAF needs new F-15's. We simply are unable to keep up with the current air to air workload that modern ops demands of our resources. You probably haven't seen the latest dogfighting stats from the Middle East or heard some of the F-15C recent war stories but I urge you to seek them out. Fascinating stuff. You have correctly figured out that an important aspect of Air to Air is looks. That's why the F-14 was such a damn fine dog fighter. Turned on a dime with those wings swept back. So I'd like to see maybe a variable wing F-15 with canted tales. With a sick paint job, shark teeth on the front with skull and crossbones on the tails.

Cessna: HANDLES HANDGRIPS RAISE, TRIGGERS SQUEEZE.

I blame John Boyd. That dude was a real tail gunner hater.

Dude, like everyone else has been saying, don't let some recruiter push you around. It sounds like they've bit hitting the blue kool aid a little too hard. If it looks bad for the squadron for you to turn down a selection, then maybe she shouldn't put arbitrary requirements on you. If you still feel like fighting that battle, dip your toe into the world of Air Force queep for a minute and reference AFI36-2013, which is what governs the OTS selection process. https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2013/afi36-2013.pdf Nowhere in that document or on the AF Form 56 does it say you're required to apply for any specialty you're not interested in. I'd politely bring that up and, if she still wants to be a douche about it, move on to a new recruiter. You could always try to push up her chain, but even if you get your way it's just going to make her resentful and less willing to work with you. Technically, she's within her rights to not submit your application because she doesn't think you'd make a good officer due to that, it's just a really shitty reason to pull that card and she should choke herself. Its your life, not hers. Your scores probably aren't that great, but the good news is you can retake the tests. Even if you don't, scores are only one component of your application and there's a long list of people that have gone on to pilot training with scores people would generally consider less than ideal. I'd still encourage you to apply if you can find a recruiter that will submit on your terms and let the board decide, but otherwise I think you've got the right idea in biding your time a little bit. Declining a selection for a job that you've listed is going to DQ you from future boards unless you get a waiver which most recruiters probably aren't going to push for (As opposed to turning down something you didn't list that they offered you anyway. That's totally kosher.) It'll give you time to study, retest, fly towards your PPL and get super smart on the whole process so you can submit a baller application. The PPL isn't mandatory, but I think it will help quite a bit based on the way things have been going. It won't necessarily pay huge dividends in UPT or anything, but having a license exempts your from IFS. That means the Air Force doesn't have to pay up for you to go to Pueblo and it saves money and time, thus making you a more attractive candidate. Plus, the boost you'll get on your PCSM is a nice bonus. Finally, just a plug from personal experience, if you do end up pushing with this recruiter and her absurdness, there are worse things that can happen to you than getting picked up as a CSO or something. I had a crappy GPA but a strong overall application and ended up wtih a CSO/Nav slot at 28 years old. I've done some awesome shit in the Air Force, had a blast, got the chance to apply for UPT once I was in and got picked up with an age waiver at 31. That may not be the route for you and that's more than okay, but keep that in the back of your nugget if push comes to shove with all of this. Where there's a will there's away, you know, and if you get smart enough on stuff you can make some crazy stuff happen. Good luck and if you have any questions PM me.

My vote

Let's see how far this thread goes. Please, continue.

What I think an "advanced" F-15 should look like...

16-09 Drop AC-130 U (Hurlburt, FL) EC-130 NAV (Davis Monthan, AZ) MC-130J CSO (Kadena, Japan) C-130H Guard Nav (Reno, NV) U-28 CSO (Cannon, NM) E-3 Nav (Tinker, OK) 2 X F-15E (Seymour Johnson, NC) Everyone except for one person got their top choice, and he got his 4th.

Tail gunners. When the Eagle first came out they were planning on having a tail gunner but instead ditched them to save weight. Worst mistake ever in my opinion.

Depending on the persuasion of the writer, reporter, staffer it can vary widely. Wired had a good article on it contrasting some of the various methods of calculation. https://www.wired.com/2011/12/f-22-real-cost/

Fo Sho! I've gotta go with the F-15 TC edition. Best looking advanced type out there!

I started to quote specific portions of your post in rebuttal, but it wound up being the whole thing. Not to shit on your enthusiasm, but suffice to say that the term "the most eye-candy" probably isn't thrown around much at the Pentagon.

Like this:

Chicago?? Aren't there some financially-savvy politicians there??

I am a Herc load. There are some situations that exist where it would be appropriate for the loadmasters to ask the front enders to raise the elevators during loading. It is not common though. Been doing the load thing for 13 years or so with multiple deployments along the way. I have only had to ask the pilots to raise the elevators once. In my case, it was the loading equipment in Uganda that they were using and not the height of the cargo that was the problem. For the non Herc folks on this thread, it is in the AOR regs that you can't have a 25K K-loader behind the aircraft and use a forklift to load additional pallets on the aircraft. You have to bridge two 25K K-loaders together and load that way. Here is what that means. A 25K K-loader is capable of moving 25,000lbs of cargo. It can only hold 3 pallets at a time. An H model Herc can hold 6 pallets and a stretched J can hold 8. The 25K is short. When it is behind the aircraft, it doesn't go out past the tail. Some loadmasters were using a stationary 25K K-loader behind the aircraft and then loading the rest of the pallets using a forklift to load pallets onto the K-loader and then just pushing the pallets across the K-loader and onto the aircraft. The problem was, while operating the forklift to load pallets onto the K-loader, the cargo on the forklift had the very real potential for hitting the tail of the aircraft because the 25K doesn't extend out past the tail. So again, the local regs prohibited this. These guys were abiding by the regs. They had two 25Ks bridged together. So, sadly, there was no reason to have the pilots hold the yoke back. I don't want to speculate, but my guess is that somebody tapped an elevator with a pallet and the unit fried the loadmasters publicly. That would cause them to be over cautious.

State by state, as far as deer. I still remember the legal wording from my accident in CT 15 years ago: "in cases where only one driver is at involved, that driver is assumed to be at least 50% at fault." Now in my case, I hit a stationary object, so that definition seemed pretty charitable.

Dude, Japan HAS selected and contracted to buy F-35s already. 42 of them (for now). As to being LESS capable than what is out there now? You're looking at the wrong things to measure it against.

The answer to your question is a big "it f%ckin depends". The availability of man days varies from unit to unit. Factors that play into your paycheck as a bum/trougher are the type of airframe, the general ops tempo of the individual unit, as well as the number of co's/wingmen doing the exact same thing you're doing when you get there. In general I would say you will fare well in the 135. Heavy units tend to have a healthier allocation of man days than the fighter types. As it pertains to the seasoning period (which are active duty days), it is my understanding that it used to be quite healthy, circa a year. From talking to other guard guys the number now varies. Some expect 30-45 days (myself included), others have 270 days, others a year. The longer periods tend to be quoted by the fighter guys in my recent epxerience asking this. Again, your individual unit will be the one to definitively answer that one. Now regarding pay once back in traditional status. The guarantee is 48 pay periods for UTAs (12 drills @ 4 pay periods per), 48 AFTP and your 14 AT days (15 for Guard...the f%ck I know why one day more..) Clearly this amount to roughly 9Kish for 2LT rate and clearly not enough to live on. I don't think your unit is going to set you up for that kind of expectation. You WILL make more than that. How much more depends on the factors I stated above. For 135 guys I would venture to say the biggest factor is how many other co's bumming at the time of your arrival. If you're one of the few, then there should be enough work to enable you not to have a second job. If there's a lot like you then yeah the pickings will be slim. At least you're not in a fighter unit, I would venture to say that it is a little more difficult to pick up man days in a fighter unit, plus you have to actually fly twice in one day to "double teep" (toungue n' cheek guys...:) ) that's Guard for burning two pay periods in one calendar day. At any rate, as you can see things can vary a lot. I would ask your Capt types in your unit, they're right in the thick of it and would be able to answer you fully without much reservation. I've heard of people accruing roughly 300 pay periods calling it a good year, on 2LT that's 25-27K, 1LT about 35K etc..and I think I might be low-balling the math as I don't know if I've figured the pay fractions fully. Anyways, that's like 4 man days a week averaged out.....which is a healthy amount. The Guard/Reserves (in my short experience so far) takes care of its own, you should have no problem finding work as a new co. Now, how much pay also depends on your expectations. Are you going to make 60K? I don't think so. Could you? Maybe, but at least I'm not banking on it. Are you going to make 12K? No, you're not. You'll make anywhere above 30K. Guys in my unit have made 45K the first year, it is my expectation to make a similar amount and I've been told by folks in my unit to not expect to have a second job. PROVIDED you don't have much competition from other co's in the bumming dept I also expect you to pull upwards of 35-40K your first year. After the first year things get better, the whole issue for the new guy is the 2LT pay rate, once you go up in rank the pay periods become more valuable and making your income target becomes easier. The other thing that I think you have going on in your favor is the fact that you're brand new. The unit's expectation is to have you available and working the line much more so than the seasoned guys. Most guys I know going thru training right now are all expected to be local, and so was I. So clearly there is the notion that the unit wants you and needs you there to do the one job you're supposed to be doing as a fresh co/wingman...to become proficient in your jet. I think the naysayers come with a little negative transfer from the shut up and color attitude presented to the active duty LTs, but I digress. My point is that I don't see your unit forcing you to min run as a NEW guy, which would necessitate a civilian job right off the start (the scenario Rainman alluded to). The unit expects you to be there almost full time the first year. Regarding civilian employers, once again, odds are you're better off bumming/troughing. Once you take a peek at the civilian employers you will quickly discover that aside from an airline gig, the schedules just don't jive. It is very difficult for a brand new guy to fulfill the additional commitment that entails being new at that unit and maintain the 9-5. The unit (should) understands this, which is why so many of us are "encouraged" to be locals. As I said before, all the guys going thru training with me right now are going to be locals, pretty much as condition of employment. That's not a coincidence. You WILL be flying more your first year than the average O-5 in the unit, guy who mind you, can make the same coin as you in the fraction of the pay periods. So you see there is a method to this madness after all. So let's say you're thinking on going to the regionals as a way to cover your livelihood. Chances are you WILL make more bumming than on first year FO pay. That means your opportunity cost is better to stay at the unit (and stay in town) all week than commute to sit reserve and make sh%t while the neighbor takes care of your wife/gf all week. Hell, on the -135 you are likely to match or exceed the yearly flying hours that you would on a regional, which even as SIC time it sure as hell looks better than RJ time anyways.(and the only airline that cares about 121 time notes military time in lieu of 121 so there ya go) You could even go and get hired at the regional and then go on leave as much as possible, I consider that somewhat of a dick move to your FO bretheren, and would have a hard time keeping a straight face about it, but it is an option to deal with the only hit you might be taking, which is the health care issue. So I see little reason for you to actually need a second job, other than you want a lavish lifestyle and/or already have 3-4 kids and have no choice but to suck it up chase as much coin as you can. Once you're a CAPT, and AC on that big ol'jet then your options and pay issues become exponetially alleviated. I still find it a great opportunity to have the priviledge to serve in the Guard/Reserves and most of the flak you'll catch from the AD types (the ones who object to bumming I'm referring to ONLY btw), while mostly consisting of the Guard baby name-calling and constant references to your canned training missions, have more to do with the fact that they wished they would have done their homework on the ANG/AFR a little earlier. TC :) My purely speculative $2.75 on the matter. Good luck brother

Not sure what I did that demonstrated a lack of knowledge in the first place.