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What about upping the retirement age to 85?

It seems to me like the ATP requirement should actually work in the Air Force's favor. As many have pointed out, the new rules pose a prohibitively high cost of entry into the professional flying community. In theory, this should help the AF's recruitment effort. Judging by this assessment: it would seem that the best path for anybody seriously considering a professional pilot career is through the military. Also, it seems that an experienced (10-year) military pilot is always going to be highly competitive for the major airline jobs. This would indicate that even if the ATP rules were relaxed, allowing the market to become flooded with a legit civilian pilot pipeline, the experienced mil guys/gals transitioning from AD would still remain highly qualified even in a competitive job market. Ultimately, the only solution to the AF problem is internal (or at least resides within the USG.) Relaxing the ATP requirement only serves to reduce the pool of qualified applicants seeking AD military flying jobs, but does little-to-nothing to keep experienced pilots in service on the back end. At the risk of opening a can of worms here, if you ask me, it all boils down to this un-winnable war on VEOs. Allow me to pontificate a bit... Opstempo, morale, toxic leadership, money problems, polarized government and populace - all of these tensions draw (at least in part) from the incredible drain caused by the last 15 years at war. Furthermore, anybody that thinks that these VEOs can be decisively defeated is either disillusioned, ignorant, or just plain stupid. I realize that most will see this sidebar as only being tangentially related at best, but I believe its actually fundamental. The AF is not sinking because of any civilian pilot production capacity issue. The AF is sinking because of a virus which has taken root and festered inside of the conditions created by this un-winnable war. The financial strains drive the requirement for efficiency, yet the security requirements undermine that efficiency. Further, the opstempo drives increased workload for all. This means that we literally have to "do more with less." The toxic leadership results from a culture of refusing to say "no" or "can't" to our civilian political masters. The end result is a force that is stretched thin, past the breaking point, meeting at a juncture with a rebounding economy providing much more tantalizing opportunities for the service's best and brightest. The result is inevitable, a hollow force. If the DOD wants to get serious about remaining ready for the future threats posed by the "4+1" it needs to seriously reconsider its objectives as related to dealing with VEOs. OK, rant off. BL, I agree with the majority that the CSAF is barking up the wrong tree here, and that gearpig is probably closer to the truth than most would like to believe.

No, they're not going to waste a 38 spot on you just because you're an "overachiever," especially when Blue needs all the 11Fs they can build. Go apply at a fighter unit if you want to fly 38s. Bonus: You won't have to work with underachievers.

Yes it is possible, I am a living breathing example of this...here's how it happened (WARNING, not to be used as a template of what you should do). I was a prior enlisted crew chief that was hired in house by my heavy unit. While in T-6s I performed towards the top of my class. My T-6 flight commander made everyone fill out a track select dream sheet (yes, even me thought I knew I was headed for T-1s). Being the punk smart-ass LT that I was, I racked T-38, UH-1, T-44 then T-1 in that order. Five minutes after handing in the dream sheet I was called into the Flight Commanders office to redo it. After some back and forth discussion, my Flt CC picked up the phone to the NGB to see what he could make happen. The day of track select I was called to the DOs office and put on a 3-way (sts) phone call with my home heavy unit and the NGB. It was decided that I could track T-38s, with the understanding that I go back to my heavy unit and if I struggled and washed out of T-38s, I was done. So that night, everyone was surprised when a T-38 came up on the screen instead of the T-1. (Don't worry, it was an NGB funded slot, I did not take it away from an AD stud). Fast forward a few months into T-38s...I was the red-headed step child of the class, but towards the top in performance. After being approached by several IP and my Flt CC telling me I should fly fighters, I made a difficult phone call back to my sponsor unit asking for their blessing. They said go forth and look for a fighter unit up until my Altus dates, at which point I'd be committed to heavies. I interviewed to 2 units the weekend after assignment night and was officially hired by my #1 choice the weekend prior to graduation. During IFF/B-Course , I found out that big blue was looking to get rid of our jets (and other units as well), which eventually happened after flying the jet for 1.5 yrs. Being an inexperienced fighter dude (in a then dying airframe) during sequestration, it was difficult finding a unit to hire me and send me to another B-course. Staring down the barrel of RPA class dates, I pulled the trigger and was hired back by the heavy unit that sent me to UPT. The end. BL. Bust your ass, luck and timing (my Flt CCs, IPs, and home unit were awesome and extremely supportive), don't go behind your sponsoring units back (I didn't call a fighter unit until I received a blessing), and have a good attitude and my thankful and happy wherever you end up.

I hope this isn't a repost. Please enjoy this offering of humor from The Duffleblog https://www.duffelblog.com/2017/02/fighter-pilot-shortage-results-in-recruitment-of-average-looking-uncool-people/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel+Blog&utm_content=Air+Force+to+allow+average+looking%2C+uncool+people+to+become+fighter+pilots

You and I may understand that but how do you think the general public views it? Do you really think they'll trust pilotless planes when they see so many accidents with driverless cars? The flying public don't think logically like you and I. Case and point...everything is flowing smoothly, beautiful day, no delays. We push early, get right on the runway and take off way early. I see we're going to be 30 minutes early...and we're going into LA. I know gate space is a premium and i've been burned by this before. So I decide to slow up and get closer to an on time arrival. We land, roll right into the recently opened gate, and people are happy with our on time arrival. New jet, new day...I see we're going to be 30 minutes early, however I decide to keep the speed up because I forget about the mess that is LAX. We land early and the gate is still occupied. So we sit on the ramp for 30 minutes, shut down an engine (maybe both) to save gas. Meanwhile in the back, the passengers are absolutely losing their freaking minds! They inform the FAs that "there are open gates right there!!!" Finally our gate opens, and we roll into the gate ON TIME. You wouldn't believe the mean mugs and the anger in their faces! Smile and wave boys...time to get to the hotel before we miss happy hour!

The list is out, just found out I was selected for UPT! All I can confirm is the list was large so good luck to everyone else!

Sure the higher ATP minimums should help the AF but I don't think we are suffering from qualified applicants either nor are we short of new copilots. We are short in the 12 year majors that should be our senior instructors who are now all flying for the majors. Doesn't matter how many guys are beating down the AF's door, they will be leaving at 11 years TIS which is still a problem for the AF.

Sorry for the late post, but I was unable to post on NIPR and had to wait until I got home. I called AFPC @ 1530 Central. What I was told was that the PSDM had been signed and that it was uploaded to their email system. Tomorrow morning the system will gen up an email to all the senior raters and be disseminated to the selected applicants. Thursday the PSDM will post to MyPers and be available for all to view. Sucks we suffer through another night, but this info came from the Maj managing the board so I feel like this is pretty solid info. Thus, unless there is another hiccup/delay we will all be finding out tomorrow. Try to make it through the night and good luck to all.

Good. I got answers to all your questions except the stupid ones, but rest assured I asked them all. I'll write up the interview for Combat Aircraft magazine and post a link to it here when it's out.

FYI getting to a fully autonomous car is a much more difficult problem than a self-flying airplane - basic reason, the driving environment is drastically more complex than the aircraft environment.

Now that the flames are well stoked, I'll provide some more perspective on why I am asking the question. Do I plan to abandon my unit down the road for fighters? No. Why not apply to a fighter unit? I am. Why ask the damn question then? I am well established in my current city, married, have a solid civi job, own a house, and dont really want to move (hence why the Guard). Therefore, my first pick (and probably best shot at getting a UPT slot) is to fly for the local guard unit which happens to fly heavies. With no plans to leave, I know I will probably never fly fighters in my career, but would LOVE to have the chance to fly them for a period of time even if it is just for Phase 3 of UPT. Sure, it gives me the flexibility down the road to possibly transfer should the wife get a life changing job offer somewhere else but that is not my motivation.

Meet the new rule, same as the old rule. I feel sorry for the guy that gets fired over this misunderstanding. What's that you say? Nobody will be fired for a completely illegal TPS report? Shirley you jest.

So, the old rule.

I don't think it will happen soon enough for it to have an impact on most of our careers. The big hiring is over the next 15ish years. I think it will be tough to get the technology to a level needed and the public onboard with this idea over that timeframe. Hell they can't even get self driving cars to do it right. There are videos all over of these cars blowing stop signs, almost hitting people and a few fatality crashes. Also, the airlines will only do it if it's financially advantageous to do so. So the technology needs to be refined, then be cheap enough for the companies to go along with it. This isn't even consider the $$$ needed to update the national airspace system. After that, it will only happen if the customer is ready for such a change. In the end it's all about the customer, and many won't get on a plane with no pilots. There is a Rand study published that talks about the implementation of single pilot cockpits, then unmanned cockpits. If I remember correctly, it recommends starting with the cargo carriers, doing ocean crossing from coastal cities to coastal cities. Then after that's been proven, cargo ops over the conus before they get to the airlines. I believe the technology is moving along at a record pace, but it still has along way to go. Right now our flight plans/flight data is uploaded electronically, all we have to do is accept and ok. However, there is still a fair amount of user input required. Then it's changed multiple times over a flight. Reroutes have been uploaded and been totally wrong. Ever seen the 737 AP in action? It will water your eyes with how terrible it is at it's job.

I've done a fair amount of regulatory/legislative work on autonomous vehicles, you aren't likely to see fully autonomous cars (no steering wheel, no gas/brake pedal) for twenty years or so, because you need them to "play nice" with all the other non-autonomous vehicles on the road, or drive on autonomous-only roads. So it's going to be a phase in process as older, manually operated vehicles. When it comes to aircraft, expect the cargo carriers to go to single pilot operations, then after about ten or twenty mishap-free years passenger airlines can go single pilot.

Short term I think you're right. Longer term I think the airlines will find a way to decrease their demand for pilots. As the American public gets comfortable with self driving cars, how long before the idea of autonomous passenger airplanes moves into the realm of possible? I think that's the long term future of the airline industry. 5 years ago I would have said never gonna happen.

I thought we established your brain doesn't work?

They are going to up the UPT commitment. 16 yrs is my guess. This will push some people away, but there will be no shortage of people signing up not knowing what they are getting into. Quality may go down, lowered standards in ROTC/academy for a pilot slot but I think it's coming. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Its all about what your unit is willing to pay for and what slots are open. i wouldn't get your hopes up with the doom and gloom of the fighter shortage. I have seen crazier things though, like a guard RPA guy going through UPT T-38s.

1/2. I get what you mean for sure. I was 3 months out of college, and was thinking "fvck it, I'll just join the active duty AF..." I was taken aside and told to be patient and my stellar GPA would pay off... And it did. I wouldn't know how an AF commitment would work and whether or not you would even be allowed to just say "see ya, I'm off to UPT." 3. Pilot score is part of the AFOQT. I would focus on the pilot score in depth, but would also know a good deal about the other sections just so you don't have 95 pilot and crap in everything else. Also, I didn't have perfect scores all around, but good scores definitely get your foot in the door. The "whole person" concept is much easier to obtain if your scores are a non-issue. I didn't meet anyone who I thought was a huge tool, but I like people in general so... 4. I would just get as many hours as you can afford. Get a PPL so you at least have the option of skipping IFS/IFT. The minimum amount of hours you can get before your score can no longer increase is 201... I can't afford that much on my own, but I can't speak for your personal situation. 5. It seems like AFRES is leaning more towards picking up un-sponsored applicants. I can't tell you because by the time I was rushing units, I didn't visit or even have any Reserve units on my radar. The only guy I know who got picked up with a Reserve unit (to fly F-16's) was enlisted with that unit when he was selected. It seems like people who just want to get into UPT go AFRES un-sponsored because obviously they get into training faster and worry about who they are flying for second. Personally, I was rushing Guard units because they were the ones putting out hiring notices on the boards. There are also a lot of Guard fighter units if you are only interested in fighters. Hope that helps. EDIT: I apologize for all the crappy sentence structure, it's been a long day. Just ask for clarification if you need it and I'll be happy to answer as best as I can. Also, remember I'm pre-OTS (so pre-UPT), just to put my answers into perspective.

You can check out the annual FY Rated Retention Reports at https://access.afpc.af.mil/vbinDMZ/broker.exe?_program=DEMOGPUB.static_reports.sas&_service=pZ1pub1&_debug=0. The FY16 report still has yet to be published, but here were the losses (to separations, retirements, promotion to Colonel, grounded or "other') over the last few FYs: - FY12: 1420 (590 were separations) - FY13: 1104 (432 were separations) - FY14: 1735 (832 were separations) - FY15: 1139 (579 were separations) If, prior to FY16, we were (1) averaging over 1k/yr losses, (2) only producing a little over 1k pilots/yr, and (3) airline hiring is still just getting warmed up, I'd say the AF is in a tight spot. Especially for heavies, the 1500 hr rule is nothing close to a discriminator. Much like ihtfp06, I had over 1,500 hrs by the end of my first flying assignment. By 10 yrs after SUPT, I was around 3,500. That total was limited by the fact that one of the later flying assignments was at an overseas tanker base, where crews weren't even deploying downrange when I got there. TT

I dunno, man. I got the joke. I thought it was balzy as hell, but I got the joke. Responses seem unintentionally SNAP-ish, compared to the clumsy attempt at humor. Maybe my brain just works that way. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Dude, learn when to just stop. There are times (this being a prime example) where you just need to drop it and shut up for a bit. Regardless of the circumstances, it only makes things worse by trying to argue and defend yourself. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Goldfein indeed went after said MC-12 pilot in a stupidly produced video that was mandatory queep for crews to watch who were coming into the AOR. Goldfein basically ripped the guy apart in that video, before that guy had is 'day in court' and was essentially cleared with mitigating factors. That just showed that Goldfein was a standard flag-level politico, same as when he was the 49th CC. He talks a good game of integrity, yet conveniently leaves out his brother's disgraceful involvement in the jumbotron contract scandal when he was the AWFC/CC at Nellis. He's as much a part of the problem as any other high ranking member of the AF corporation. Ive never much cared for flag-level dynasties. And yeah, said MC-12 pilot is doing just fine.

It strikes me that the issue is timing: there is no time to unscrew this: - Assumption (but backed by other posters on this forum): there are only about 3,000 civ pilots who are well-enough qual'd to be hired by the major airlines - Airlines are projected to hire 3,000+ pilots/yr for the foreseeable future (way conservative, but makes the math easier) - Air Force & Navy are producing about 2,400 pilots/yr. Of those--due to illness/injury/death/disinterest in airline careers/promotion to Colonel/etc.--let's say maybe 1,500 of them (total from AF and Navy) will reach the ends of their mil careers and still be viable candidates for the airlines . . . and will actually want to fly for the airlines - The commercial sector doesn't currently have a viable way to get folks to 1,500 hrs, to even start flying for Regionals, so the regionals will soon be going tits up: quality regional captains will be hired away by the majors, and there will be almost no way to get new blood into the ranks - Based on the above assumptions, within 3 years, if not much sooner (my numbers are very optimistic), just about the only viable places US major airlines will be able to find qual'd pilots will be prior-mil folks and foreign pilots. Of course, the demand for pilots will be even greater overseas--particularly in Asia/Pacific--than there is in North America, so expats will be hard to come by - If the 1,500 hr rule remains in place, the only viable way I can remotely imagine this won't be a major crisis--for both the airlines and the military--within the next few years is if the airlines start now (preferably last year or earlier, but oh well) to create a viable path to 1,500 hrs for airline pilot wannabes (a path that doesn't require any regional flying, which--again--will destroy the regionals and drive major airline hiring even higher). Even if they do create a viable path ASAP, I don't see how they're going to be able/willing to afford paying for the numbers of non-revenue generating hours they'll need to buy in order to get folks up to speed. Even if they can afford it, it takes quite a while to build 1,500 hrs--I would think more than 3 years - We haven't even discussed the impact on business aviation, cargo airlines, civilian contractors that perform missions in lieu of military missions, etc. But hey, it's outside of the CSAF's lane to think of such things. If he retires in the next 2-3 years, the crisis should happen on someone else's watch. TT

Oh for fuck sake. With this attitude, yes.

Were the 9 of us that visited this past weekend so bad that you couldn't wait to repost?

I greatly prefer a green bag to multicam. I'm sure I sound like that dude from Cannon a few years back about, but I worked my whole life to get into a bag with wings on my chest. It's juvenile, but I get enough multicam deployed.

Here's a free piece of advice you should take- NEVER pass up the opportunity to shut the fuck up

Will his successor institute "Cross Dressing Day" for field grade and above, to better understand our military members that serve under a different gender?

Airline life is like a stripper. Once to get your hands on her and see how nice she feels, you'll never be able to go back to your ugly, fat bitch wife. Sure, the stripper isn't perfect by any means...but it's oh so much better than your previous witch...

Wear of socks on hands is not authorized in 6.4.1 or 8.8. Report to the nearest Chief for remediation.

Yet...

I hate that I am even wasting 6-9 seconds to answer this, but 8.8 seems to describe what socks can be worn in general, whereas 6.4.1 describes in detail what socks go with what boots/shoes. 8.8 even states "For wear and description see applicable paragraphs 6.4.1...", so I'd say the correct answer is green for bags. Seppuku time.

Arguments over socks? The rest of your problems must be solved at this point...

So I guess I'm the only one who finds it hilarious (in a self-depricating way) that immediately after an applicant visit weekend the squadron makes a post looking for additional applicants (seemingly because they didn't like us). Obviously that's not the reality of the situation because the other 8 guys are great dudes who are going to be extremely competitive, but I made a joke. I'll keep my day job and hopefully you all can forgive my faux pas. I'm sorry. My flying is better than my joke making, I swear.