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Last I checked, most of us signed up to be part of the military; more specifically, the US Air Force, the god damn "Fly, Fight, WIN" set of air warriors who rain death down upon the enemies and oppressors of the democratic free world. This AFPAK hands sounds a LOT like some state department, political BS that most of us specifically did NOT sign up for. If we wanted to be politicians, we would have gone into politics. Instead we are the warriors (not used sarcastically), the "blunt objects", the "politics by other means" type. Take your double-speaking, snake oil salesman pitch elsewhere. You'll find no takers here.

I wish we could gold plate this quote and hang it up on the wall for posterity. Why? Because it just so directly crystallizes the FAIP stereotype in fighter track follow-on training. In my experience as an IFF IP and out in the wild in FTUs and Ops squadrons, FAIPs come in two wildly divergent flavors: above average and below average. What makes the difference between the two? Those who are able to bottle up that idea that because they instructed UPT that it gives them some kind of SA or experience that is applicable to learning the fighter trade, hide it somewhere deep in their psyche, and proceed as if they were a recent UPT grad that knew absolutely nothing. The humble, willing-to-learn former FAIPs generally did well. The ones who thought their FAIP experience gave them some kind of leg up generally flailed and struggled until they got their attitude in check.

I haven't heard this much quibbling since week 2 of UPT, and that guy ended up becoming a personnelist.

I think it's rainman.

I forwarded the AFPAK Hands email directly to Gen Everhart's "Why are we losing so many pilots" inbox.

hey man take this however you want IDGAF, but in most of your posts you come across as a huge ass hole

General Chang is on fire this weekend

Who the fuck would volunteer for that?

I have no doubt that there are very talented pilots who went through the T-1 track and went on to fly heavies, and who would likely excel if they crossflowed to a fast mover. But let's remember that the AF training pipeline has always been a game of numbers, and Big Blue has to select the pilots who have the highest likelihood of making through IFF and FTUs in the time directed in the syllabus. I'm sure there are plenty of UPT washouts who would have made great pilots if they'd just had a couple more rides, right? But, as we know, the syllabus directs when certain learning milestones will be achieved, and that is Gospel for the training pipeline. The brass who are making these decisions are old enough to remember the last fighter crossflow program in the late 90s and how generally sorta-slightly-below-average that turned out. Yes, we're talking about something different now than then (e.g., now the question is T-1 vs T-38 trained, but then the only folks eligible for crossflow were T-38 UPT-trained pilots), but because of this I think the lessons of the 90s crossflow are even more amplified now than then. I've posted about this before (several pages back in this very thread), but for those who didn't live through it, the fact is many crossflow pilots didn't end up performing as well as hoped at all stages of follow-on training (IFF. FTU, squadron MQT, etc). Some of them did great, of course (I know a couple that went on to perform well above average where I was in the F-15E community), but statistically they did "worse" (in terms of pipeline training washouts and issues in operational units). Remember, during this crossflow program it was only T-38-trained pilots who were eligible. Most of the dozen or so crossflow pilots that were my IFF/FTU classmates and later follow-on squadronmates were superb officers with fantastic officer performance records (and extremely good dudes to boot), but that didn't always continue into performance in the cockpit. It wasn't a talent issue with the crossflow pilots so much as it was an experience issue; one has to acknowledge, weather it is politically correct to or not, that there are significant cultural differences between the fighter community and other flying communities (although the bomber community is a somewhat close relative) that translate to differences in skills/airmanship in the pilots that come from those communities. What makes an aviator great in the MAF isn't the same thing that makes an aviator great in the CAF. On the most basic level, the crossflow pilots, for the most part, were not used to being single-seat decisionmakers at much higher speeds, and much higher Gs, while hand-flying significantly more aggressive/dynamic maneuvers. Many times the core airmanship just wasn't operating well at 400 knots and pilots were just behind the jet (sound judgment, just not fast enough); sometimes a thousand hours on autopilot in the flight levels did not translate to having hands good enough for even basic admin formation work, much less more complex BFM or surface attack. This isn't unique to the crossflow folks, though; this is the same thing seen many times with ANG/Reserve fighter units that hire non-fighter guys and send them through IFF and fighter FTUs. There was a big wave of those guys back in the 2003-2005 timeframe (mostly A-10 units at the time, but I don't remember why), and they had an unusually high washout rate, too, with the guys who did superb being the exception rather than the rule. None the less, the end result was that there was higher attrition of the crossflow guys compared to straight pipeline students, and the fighter brass largely decided the crossflow program wasn't that much of a benefit. Again, not that the crossflow pilots were idiots or anything (in fact, quite the opposite -- most of them had impressive OPRs/jobs/awards, seemed to have been superb pilots in their previous lives, and were really great dudes), but their previous flying time had given them habits and airmanship that did not dovetail into success in fighters. And all of this was with pilots who had 100-ish hours of training as a fast jet single-seat flyer and decisionmaker before going to a multi-pilot airplane. Now, how do you think that learning curve is going to be with a dude whose only single-seat judgment and decisionmaking was Phase II in T-6s however many years prior?

I know Chang is just a troll staff weenie, but it does show how out of touch these morons really are with the bulk of us. Spend 2/4 years in the biggest shithole on the planet with no real strategic endgame, just so you can rub elbows with a bunch of O-6s, most of whom got there by sacrificing credibility and warrior ethos in favor of exec jobs and coattail riding. And he sells it like it's a GOOD thing!?! We have some truly clueless management.

Then they are little bitches and should be fired.

This pretty much confirmed my suspicion that GC is a troll who just likes to get everyone here spun up about stuff.

This might be my new favorite thread.

Well below slightly below average.

AFPAK Hands could sure use someone of your caliber.

No one. Which is why Chang is fishing for suckers. "You'll make O-6" and "you'll make General" and "it's a career rocket" are the corporate motivators. I'd rather drop MOABs, which seems a bit more effective at killin' bad guys. Besides, anyone can sell their soul and make O-6, but only a few can say they dropped the biggest fuckin bomb we have... well I'd like to see a bunch more that can say they dropped it. Out

Shhhhh, don't wake him.

Nah, don't feel that way. If the Guard/Reserve didn't give you a conduit to get wings before you got too old, then no harm no foul in taking the devil's path. You gotta do what you gotta do. You'll have to do your time in AD, but you're getting in in a time of unprecedented upt fighter slots, compared to 10 years ago, if that is your thing. When I went through it was coal in everybody's socks. That said, recognize that in time you'll grow to experience many of the dynamics people are leaving for. As long as you're open minded about the idea that priorities change with life, you won't be caught surprised by any of this.

My money is on a pilot trolling everyone.

AMC and no Q2s or Q3s? Well there goes like 96% of the MAF... lol

I agree with this. It just doesn't make good financial sense to take one guy and give him two trainings. You're literally robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're going to subtract one C-17 pilot and add one F-16 pilot (-1 + 1 = 0); net gain, zero. But yes, ultimately, if we are going to do that, they will need all the training that it takes to get someone to that spot - i.e. UPT phase 3 in T-38s plus IFF. Whether or not it is reasonable, I think Duck hits it with the following: The USAF needs to examine dollars and sense right now and also needs to understand why they aren't able to hang on to these year groups. It has little to do with the culture right now (IMO) and much more to do with the prevailing culture in which these year groups spent the previous 6-9 years growing up. People come up through a system and make decisions based on the sum total of decisions that they witnessed the AF making over their 10-yr ADSC. Few people wake up one morning in a vacuum and just pull the handle and jettison their careers. These are complex decisions people make by taking in the totality of personnel and other decisions that they see staffs making over the course of 1/2 a career. I'm not sure the Air Force realizes how important it is to maintain a consistent personnel system, deployment framework, promotion system, etc, for motivating people to stay for a career. The AF has been nothing but whiplash in those categories for far too long, and they are now reaping what they've sown. They will make the most money by fixing the culture, and leaving it fixed. This will ensure they have a hope of holding on to the majority of dudes who still have 5+ years of ADSC remaining. Sorry, I realize I wandered off topic there.

Copy that. After I posted that I googled to see if the RN had considered the Superhornet or Advanced Superhornet, I knew that Nigel "Sharky" Ward was advocating for the Superhornet as a substitution or a mixed fleet with the F-35. Some arguments for it but they are now OBE (probably) but from his personal website (https://www.sharkeysworld.com): Figure 1. Assumption: Using Unit Procurement Cost of F-35 for fiscal 2014 Defense budget An R.N. establishment of 48 aircraft. Costs in US$ millions Aircraft number of aircraft unit Fly Away cost subtotal in life cost ** Total F-35 48 $290 $13,906 $27,811 $41,717 F-18A Super Hornet 40 $60 $2,400 $3,600.0 $7,800.0 E/A-18 Growler 8 $90 $720 $1,080.0 Saving by going the F-18 Super Hornet route (US$ millions) $33,916.80 34 billion is real money, even in fighter procurement, and the immediacy of procurement to ensure the Fleet Air Arm doesn't get the ax by not having iron for a few years, another plus. A mixed fleet of F/A-18 Adv. Hornets with F-35C would be a good combo, IMO, seems less risky. Just another model but a looker in RN colors:

So I was a FAIP, have been through a fighter FTU, and am wrapping up five and a half years as a FTU instructor. Anybody with prior experience (95% of the time FAIPs but sometimes WSOs) typically excels in the 6-9 rides prior to their Inst/Qual check. After that it is a wash. Have FAIPs been DG? Absolutely, but so have the dudes who pin on 1st Lt during the b-course and with zero time in airplanes outside formal training. Not to mention, the fighter world puts a lot of weight into attitude. For most people we can get you there tactically with a lot of effort from the student but a student with good hands and a bad attitude is destined to be one fighter assignment and done. The culture shift is what I anticipate being the greatest challenge with crossflow and I'm not talking so to speak, elbow pointing, etc. I am talking about the single seat, your best is never good enough, every action in the jet is put under a microscope mindset that may be difficult to transition to after 1000+ hours of operating much differently. Like Hacker mentioned, the AF is simply hedging their bets for IFF success based on historical data.

Don't mind what these guys are saying, you just go to that B-course with that FAIP chip on a shoulder attitude. I am sure the IPs are going to be super impressed with you and please keep us all informed on the outcome. We could use the laugh in this day of stop loss

Fix the USAF: 1) Dramatically cut staffs. Group staff all the way to HAF staff. Force manpower back to the squadron. Mandate a "no larger than" size (with some minimal flexibility) based upon the number of subordinate units. Weak leaders have big staffs. 2) On OPRs/PRFs, eliminate staff experience as an indicator of success and replace it with squadron experience. Good staff officers *do not* necessarily make good commanders. Use the USMC aviation model of pushing people you don't want in your squadron, to the Group/Wing staff. Keep all your most credible people at the squadron level and make sure the machine rewards them for their competency. 3) +1 on the technical track. Make tech track guys your tactical experts and upgrade them early to IP/EP/WIC. Command track guys should seek the advice of their tech experts and stay out of their way in combat. 4) +1 on base consolidation. More facilities mean more staffs, more ancillary duties, more shoe clerks, and move moves. All of which dilute the quality of our force. 5) +1 on separate rated promotion boards. I should not have to compete for promotion with a guy who requires no technical expertise to do his job. I think it's pretty easy to see why he has time for volunteer bullets and I don't. 6) Work out a fair way to have all OPRs close out at the same time. Stratify everybody. Eliminate thin slicing. Strat against all those with whom you complete for promotion (i.e. #5/15 of my 2005 officers). Edit: I <3 spelling.

No. If you fail at the command track I don't want you coming back to me as a disappointed (now permanent) O-4 with no flying time because you *were* on the command track. Choose your fate: Tech or Command. Bloom where you're planted, or GTFO.

Do me a favor and PM me your name and USAF email address. I'll talk to some of my bros at the Viper RTU and make sure everyone gets the data we need to sort this out.

Well I've maxed out my downvotes on the same guys, two days in a row. That's a new one. I have noticed he up votes his own posts which is a classy move. At least he's not taking the bonus, so you have that going for you AF.....

I hear Chang did alright for himself. I mean he did make General after all! Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Don't care, get over it. Not sure why you think FAIPs should be better. They walk into the B-course with the same amount of experience flying fighters as anyone else. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I agree, SA and Airmanship transfer to any airframe. And I'm not saying the heavy guy who goes to fighters is gonna suck, it's just that his experience will not give him a leg up. It just isn't relevant. Same with FAIPs. There are a few in every B-course and, from what I've seen, they graduate on the same level as their peers. Their FAIP experience did not give them a leg up. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Or he is Gina... Sent from my iPad using Baseops Network Forums

I'll second that. Gotta be a pilot since he knows exactly how to push everyone's buttons. To whoever is giving voice to Chang, well played sir, well played.

Going guard enlisted to active duty upt stud, I feel everyday like I'm driving the sole car toward Washington in Independence Day.

Well, leaner and meaner, perhaps. More powerful is up for debate. Unfortunately, our leanness is the result of people like Chang who decided we should pay pilots a bonus to get out, force TERA on a bunch of others, and pass over a bunch of aviators...only to be shocked two years later when the Air Force has a pilot shortage. The meanness is the result of those left behind, who watched the Air Force so casually discard their brethren, then have the gall to beg them to stay by appealing to their patriotism. If you're a young guy, thinking about the Air Force, I'll say it's been a fun ride. But don't be fooled by the phrase "The people here are not your friends and truly don't care about you & your family." Because AFPC REALLY doesn't care about you and your family. They will send you to Afghanistan or Iraq for a year to build PowerPoint slides. They will non-vol you into a job you don't want, while the guy who works at the next desk over is begging for that job, but "the timing is wrong". They will kick you out if the budget monkeys say so. They will beg you to come back when the spreadsheets turn red instead of green. So, Chang's a little right (shocking, I know)...the people here aren't your friends, and they probably don't care about you, your friends, or your family. But don't think that the Air Force does either. By all means, follow your dream, go fly fighters or bombers or cargo aircraft. Invest that flight pay wisely. But do it with open eyes. Understand why the people currently doing the job you want so desperately are bailing out as soon as the commitment is over. Understand why people get out at year 18 rather than get the full retirement. Think really, really hard about what you're signing up for. I've had a great time in the Air Force, and I'm in the minority because I'm not really looking to leave in the near future. But I see it every day. Guys who get out the day they're eligible to. Guys who laugh out loud when they get the bonus email. Hell, my base has three O-6 selects that are retiring this month rather than pin on Colonel. So join, have fun, hang out with the bros, kick ass in the jet...but have an exit strategy that's more robust than "I'll retire at 20".

Tip of the hat to you, Good Sir.

I'm sorry, if a harmless joke such as a dildo offends you, you have no business being in the military. What a bunch of sissies. When I was serving our old OG and his wife a beer at the squadron BAR when I was a LT, the wife noticed our bottle opener was attached to a pair of kangaroo balls. She thought it was hilarious and kept opening other people's bottles with the balls. No one complained. Then the purge of 2013 happened and they thing vanished :(. I sent my copilots on a spirit mission to find it since rumor was it was in one of the 0-5/0-6s house. No luck. You don't need dildos to have a good time in the Air Force but it's little harmless fun like that that can make it bearable sometimes.

Do any of the airlines have an AFPAK Hands program? Mine doesn't.

Yeah, Gina...

Wait, aren't we having a pilot shortage? If you can't get enough bodies to fill cockpits, I'm guessing you will be short of finding enough for your "many slots to fill." First thing I did was delete the e-mail, and I haven't taken the DLAB specifically because of that program. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am going to address the younger people reading this forum who are scared to death. Ladies and gentlemen, there is nothing wrong with your Air Force. We are leaner, meaner, & more powerful than at any time in history. If you are thinking of joining, please join; this is a great time to join, and you will feel the rush of patriotism every day you put on the uniform. If you are already in and worried because of these threads, ignore the negativity. There are pessimists in every day and age. Unfortunately, because of social media, it is far easier to see what's on their minds as they hide behind avatars. The people here are not your friends and truly don't care about you & your family. I am proud & honored to lead the men & women under my command each & every day, and I have full faith and confidence in the highest levels of leadership. You should as well. You will know I am right when the vultures on this thread immediately attack this position. Stay true to yourselves, look for opportunities within your career fields to better yourselves (see the AFPAK Hands thread), and go out there and lead! Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Yeah...never going to happen. The military is a reflection of our culture/society, and in a country where now everyone gets to play a victim, have safe spaces, be offended at everything and anything, etc...the military is just following suit.

It would be more but most of us are on mobile and have no dislike function... Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Says the guy with -291 dislkes.

Fuck you Ram, the world deserves to know! Hopefully the source selection goes with the great white, sure as hell don't want that piece of shirt tiger shark Northrup is pitching - only one laser, bullshit!

Bringing back the FWQ or extending the age for UPT would help the Air Force fill the gap, but that makes too much sense so I doubt it will happen.

Hey guys, Great news! I was selected to go to UPT! thanks for all the help!

Sorry Danny the world needs ditch diggers too and I completely disagree with your comments. First, who said we have to take other peoples money, this is a question of choices and priorities. Maybe just maybe we say "NO SIR, we can't do that mission without completely breaking the force." Living within your means doesn't mean live on this budget but continue to operate your people and equipment like a drunken whore driving a rental car in Vegas. How many hundred thousand hours did we burn flying pointless "No-Fly Zone" missions? Do we stay in Afghanistan, Syria, South Korea, Europe, South America, and continue to project power into the South China Sea? 80% of the USMC Hornets are hard fucking broke, 80% of their heavy vertical lift as well, 50% of the Navy F-18's are down for the count, 50% of our B-1's...it goes on and on. You are correct, everyone has the same problem so how about we think outside the box and say no for once. Most aviators are type A and we don't like to admit defeat, most of the folks I know and flew with are hard charging mission hacking mother fuckers who will find a way to get it done...but we have been doing that for too long and it is now at risk of major parts of the enterprise. So if are going to live within our means then lets operate within out limitations. If a Service Chief fell on his sword and said I need more money or less mission period dot, I think it would make a difference, if more than one did it I think we would have change. Now, GET OFF MY LAWN.