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Fellas, it's Memorial Day. Let's have a beer for the boys who can't. This thread is brutal and going nowhere fast. Cheers Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

CE guy here...good discussion. Here is my perspective: - The arguments that flyers deal with too much queep and flyers should lead mission support squadrons are mutually exclusive. The majority of the queep in a CE squadron is personnel, finance, environmental, or contracting related. Much of the queep is driven at the HAF, DoD, or federal government level. Putting a flyer in charge of a CE squadron isn't going to eliminate queep. The queep problem originates with the fact that our government has become the most useless, grid-locked bureaucracy in modern history. So, you have to choose one argument or the other. Putting a flyer in a support squadron is going to increase the queep they deal with exponentially. - Many times the queep starts with a pilot. I've pulled teams off of apron repair to fix potholes in the wing headquarters parking lot. I've also had heavy equipment operators turn snow over with a shovel before a DV visit so you can only see "clean snow." No shit. That stuff wasn't an engineer's idea, and it is embarrassing and humbling to go ask trained people to do those things while making it "your own" (i.e. Not diming out wing leadership) - The Air Force chose long ago to invest in cool jets and not facilities. Probably a wise decision given our budget. But, I only get about 50% of the funds I need to maintain the base in a fair condition. One third of our squadrons are often deployed, and there isn't the manpower to execute 100% of those funds even if we got them. - Flyers don't understand what their support squadrons provide in terms of readiness because squadrons don't deploy with the wings they support. For CE Airmen, readiness means that our Airmen need to be able to repair a cratered runway, setup emergency airfield lighting, setup aircraft arresting systems, and provide drinking water among a host of other tasks. When most people think of CE, they think of Bubba plunging their toilet. Bubba is very important, but he is a very small piece of the pie. When we deploy, we need flyers dropping bombs, not figuring how to get water from A to B. - Where engineers often fail is telling the operational community where we can't support. Sometimes we let work slip into the black hole, which is unsat. So, this diatribe probably fits better in what's wrong with the AF, but the takeaway is that I don't think moving flyers into support squadrons is a cure all in terms of fixing support functions and rated promotion rates, and it certainly isn't as easy as some would think. If people are leaving because of all the non-flying stuff they have to do, moving someone into a support squadron seems like the worst thing you could do. I don't know what the right answer is to the pilot crisis, but I hope you guys figure it out. The nation needs you guys, and I'm proud to support you.

Since you seem fairly hung up on education, let me educate you: pilots who decided to get their masters (a hard requirement for Major over most of my last 11 years) did so at night after their 12-14 hr work day that didn't include a single minute for a lunch break and most likely zero gym time. They also took their weekend time to complete, around likely going to work on the weekend for at least a few hours. See the difference? I'm all for an MSG airman working on furthering their education, but their primary job comes first and it is not acceptable to leave piles of work on the desk and bolt at the 8 hr point, leaving supported people hanging, often in shitty positions. Support function failure, even delayed orders and fucked up travel vouchers, may not lose a war, but they directly, negatively effect combat capability.

Jeebus Christ what a douchey post, hatedont. Seriously, are you trying to troll? While you clear your airmen off at 1630 so they can line up at the CDC and take their night classes, some 20 year old crew chief is on his 12th hour of work...for the 6th consecutive day...before he takes one day off and repeats that week again, and again, and again. That's why the MXG has a special word for the off-flightline folks. And yes, someone might actually die if your troops don't do their job on time. The 50 hour wingman next to me needs his time in the books to manage his weapon system and come home alive...not just in wartime, but every damn day. Time is a finite resource, and our pilots don't have time to do your job because you won't do it yourself. An hour wasted for TMO bullshit is an hour that LT might have needed in the sim/vault/jet/etc. FVCKUPS LIKE YOU DESCRIBE (AND CONDONE, YGBSM) ARE WHY WE ARE HEMMORHAGING COMBAT CAPABILITY. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Frog, the argument wasn't that having flyers command some support function would reduce queep for that person; it's the flyer in such a position would add needed perspective to what they're actually supporting. Quick personal example - two weeks to go to PCS with no orders, TMO/training couldn't do anything without them, etc. Guess who still punched out at 1630 every day even though the flight CC said they were behind? That's right - the FSS. The same dudes that think we show up just to fly and work a 4 hour day. Leaving at 1630 with work piled up is a no-go in ops; it should be the same in the MSG. Flyers leading some of those functions as majors (the same rank of their current CCs) would lend some perspective and give those dudes valuable leadership experience before being a flying CC. Many MSG people have several command tours; we could eliminate the multiple tours AND get flyers valuable leadership experience.

Because when I go to the comm building, there's a giant sign that says "closed for squadron function".

Dude you see everything in black and white. Either kick everyone out at 1630 with piles of work left to do or...god forbid some leaders demand mission priorotization over hacking the clock, they're burning their airmen out. No area in-between huh? I've seen officers spending time after work on PME, degrees, fitness, etc. Teaching your troops time Mgmt skills rather than letting the let orders/vouchers/etc pile up - that's a skill that'll pay dividends the rest of their lives. Letting them off the hook and teaching them that group PT is more important than the mission is what makes one a failure of leadership. I'd be curious to see the raw amount of Facebook/amazon logins as the mission work piles up. I bet you'd make excuses for that, too.

I was worried when Chang slipped up and was outed. This place never gets boring though.

You know which officers have some of the best rapport with E's are the U-2 guys. E's would do anything for those guys. Those guys are like come out and I will give you a mobile ride A1C Bilbo. Showing a little love goes a long way. Never said enlisted should lead enlisted.

OK, mea culpa 1: I drank a lotta beer today, so this thread is getting TL;DR. 1. Promote by AFSC ain't hard. Let's say you have a YG of 2000 officers. You need 1200 pilots. Promote them. You need 600 CSOs of various kinds. Promote them. You need 200 MX officers. Etc etc. Split the boards and don't suck. 2. As a former RA, yes, with 2-6 weeks of training, I could do the comptroller's job withe sufficient motivation. Anyone with experience in that area should understand that the motivation is inherent bc jail. 3. I don't give 2 fvcks about the cost for any support AFSC's costs to retrain. Run them all out, if that's what it takes; I sincerely believe I can find and inspire a rated officer to learn the job and kick @ss, given sufficient resources. 4. As said before, with no pilots, there is no spear, just a shaft. The kind presently given to our 4th point of contact, repeatedly. 5. The world needs ditch-diggers too - aka the entire MSG. But if I have to choose, I'll choose the OG and MXG every time and outsource the rest.

Every time you post I read it in a yelling voice and for a guy whose name is "hatedont" (what does that even mean anyway) you sure do have a lot of emo teenager angst. I haven't read anywhere in this thread that pilots are "better" or can do the job better than the non-rated officers across the base. I do think the AF has a lot of bloat and the Support side of the house doesn't really do a hell of a lot to support me or the actual no $hit mission. (Although I enjoyed Pacific Indian Asian Heritage month, wait, no I didn't because I was too busy flying) I actually think most of our pilots make $hitty Commanders and not for lack of trying. We really don't do a good job developing them like other services do. By the time a Soldier is a Battalion Commander, how many other Commands have they had where they are actually leading people (Officers/Enlisted)? Probably a minimum of two, one being as a Lt and once more as a Captain. The bottom line is it doesn't make sense to pay a dude $100k a year to be an O-4 Sq/CC just so they can stand up in the Wing staff meeting and say "nothing to report, Sir!" We need to develop better and more experienced Commanders and that starts at the O-1 level. Maybe then we wouldn't have as many of these dip$hit O-5/6/7s who end up getting plastered on JQP or who singlehandedly drive down retention in their Squadron. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

I'm throwing the bullshit flag; first, because your points are contradictory, and secondly because they're incoherent. If you think pilots aren't good leaders because they aren't around enlisted people, you should be 100% for putting them there. It's not going to get any better unless you expose them to it sts earlier on so they can figure it out. And this has already been mentioned, but what specially qualified a finance officer to lead his section? A 4 week tech school? No, being put in charge of the people and finding a good SNCO to mentor him, which takes time. Which is, again, why we probably ought to put fliers in that position sts as well if we expect them to ever grow in the same manner. Lastly, people in support functions should absofuckinglutely be exposed to what it is they support and where it fits sts in the big picture. Half the problems we have getting comm to respond, for example, might be resolved more quickly if they understood what a screeching halt our squadron grinds to when our mission planning system is tits up. Well, that and the base comm to have the appropriate authorities etc, but I digress. It is the same concept as this: when a young flier makes a stupid decision in the grand scheme of an LFE because he was only thinking about his jet and not the whole strike package, we debrief him on it and then teach the larger group the lesson learned so hopefully the other LTs don't make the same mistake.

Happy Memorial Day fuckers. Tammy Archuletta, Mark Graziano, Mike Dodson, Bruiser Bryant and all the others I didn't know well.

It's roughly a year-ish. More precisely, it's until the next selective continuation board for your rank, which occurs immediately after the promotion board you are considered for APZ, until you hit high year tenure. Each board could have different instructions on who to continue. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Has this article been posted already? https://www.google.com/amp/foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/04/jack-mccain-is-right-that-the-air-force-has-big-problems-but-hes-wrong-about-why-officers-are-bailing-out-so-much/amp/ The Air Force’s retention problems will only be fully resolved when the service’s senior leadership creates a performance feedback program that recognizes and promotes talented individuals who may not desire to serve as commanders yet have the technical skills to continue serving. The service should stop using a performance feedback model designed to identify the top 20 percent of officers at their board for promotion to major and switch to one that accommodates an adaptable force that allows officers to achieve their professional and personal goals at their own pace, while still fulfilling specific “needs of the Air Force.”

My theory is that chang, being an A1 "in the know" kinda guy, saw the most recent promotion board results and he didn't get something he thought he would. The timing of his "I now hate the Air Force" works out in that the list would have floated around the appropriate A1 shops prior to release so that some ducks could be arranged regarding HPO schools/assignments, etc. While I have no doubt his pain is/was real to him, Big Blue don't care. Took that kick in the junk for him to realize that.

They never answer.

Working people an extra hour isn't "running them into the ground". You should spend some time on the flight line. The MX folks have some choice words for your office-dwelling 9-to-5ers.

My point is do you want to break your people or break the mission? Without people you can't hack the mission. Run your E's into the ground and when the mission fails you will be the scapegoat. You can fly that training mission another day if the mission is scraped stateside for manning. We have been doing more with less since 9/11. At some point your people or aircraft will give out.

^This. It needs to be a identified track, not just any random pilot passed over for promotion because we know there are people passed over because they spent too much time flying the line and those that are passed over for other reasons. It needs to come with protections and benefits for starters, not being the guy to eat whatever 365 comes down to the base repeatedly, not eligible for staff, not required to do PME by correspondence etc.

So you're willing to let the mission fail to "protect your people"? This is why non-flyers almost never get command of a wing. Because the flyers know it isn't acceptable to tell POTUS "Sorry sir, we won't be launching those strikes today...Capt Snuffy has a class after work, and Maj Donut has to pick up his kid from the CDC by 5pm".

I don't know where you are getting this stuff about lunch and the 1st Sgt becuase in the Ops and MXG world working lunches are common. For those airman on meal plans at the chow hall, its called getting your food to-go and coming back to your desk to continue work. I'm lucky to get a break for lunch most days of the week and as for PT/gym, yeah not a chance. I could maybe do one or the other some days but if I want to leave work before the sun goes down I can very rarely if ever do both. Night classes might be good for promotion but the mission comes first. If both can't be accomplished then you have ammo to get rid of the non-mission related stuff or work towards other solutions. The mission of the AF is to "fly, fight and win" not "take night classes, do bake sales and go to lunch". If you behind and there are deadlines to meet (i.e. jets launching or people PCSing) then people stay till the work is done.

I'm not hung up on education. But a lot of people enlist for the education benefits. I'm asking you gentlemen to take into account their manning. When an airmen apologizes for not having something done due to their manning, what can I say? You're a douchebag of an airman? It's called having compassion. Lots of AFSCs are short on manning. Not every leader in the AF thinks like a Type A pilot. Lord knows civilian thinking drives me nuts. Off point topic. I asked my property manager for a snow removal plan. I got crickets. While I was deployed during the winter, the property manager sent out an email because people were lighting her on fire because they couldn't get out of their driveways in my townhome complex and the apartment parking lot wasn't plowed. I was like I tried to tell her months in advance, but thats civilian thinking for you man. If you don't let any E's go to school. Watch retention plummet across every AFSC. You are comparing officers to enlisted. Kids fresh out of high school compared to someone who has already completed a 4 year degree. They have different mindsets, especially those who are pilots.

Having watched passed over majors get RIF'd just a few years ago, I would certainly prefer to have a defined path to retirement instead of "well, we're short on people for now, so you can continue...oh, looks like we're over manned, get out. Too bad you served 17 years, but no retirement for you".

You must turn orders into the TMO to have your HHG shipped. "I said TMO orders." You don't need to resort to name calling when I counter your illogical point The disconnect is real on your part. Airmen who live on base have to eat in the chow hall. Working lunch? You can have a working lunch if you are going to pay for everyone's food to work through lunch. The shirt is going to say something to you if you think you can make airmen stay for a working lunch. Even if you buy food, they could say they don't want your food. Everyone knows this already. You are asking to be chiefed Viperstud. Not trying to be a dick. Have you gone to SOS?

Back on the topic of PRFs and promotions - heads up to all the MAF officers here: There is anew Facebook group called "MAF Assignments and Mentoring" which is run by the flyers at AFPC MAF officer assignments. They're taking direct feedback as well as posting data and stats as soon as it's available.

Yes, a huge disconnect. Nice straw man argument, numbnuts. What are TMO orders, are you even in the AF? I don't expect someone to keep people so late everyday that they can't get their kids. There are a plethora of ways to chip away at that work though: stay an hour late 1 or two days, have working lunch (like most of us do), cancel/consolidate "training" hours used as fluff. I even really like your suggestion - cnx PT in favor of that little thing called the MISSION; if that causes half the sq to fail the test then holy shit there are bigger problems with that group of individuals. Lots of people in Ops are single parents; unfortunately we have a lot of divorces. We have the same life issues everyone does. Yeah, I worked 12-hr days as a single punk. I'm not advocating that for everyone; far from it. That being said, treating 1630 as a sacred departure time without consideration of mission accomplishment, that's how you breed a group of non-supporters. There's a happy medium between what we have and your fairyland where everyone fails PT tests and loses their kids if someone has to work a little harder.

Mods, recc move a lot of this stuff over to "what's wrong with the af" thread. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Life ain't fair. Any arguments based on "fairness" are invalid. It's the Air Force. Walk into any organization (that's not the AF) and you will find people in charge at every level who have an intimate understanding of what the organization's primary function, mission, and purpose are. (Does the CEO of Ford understand cars?) Pilots see parts of all the support, decision makes, and execution functions of the USAF simply by the merit of their job. Pilots can and should lead the Air Force at all levels. Competition selects quality. Simply by going through the selection process of pilot training, higher quality raw material is selected. Ever hear about the guy that washed out of finance tech school and used UPT as his backup? Not a knock on personal value, but not everyone has what it takes to do certain jobs. That doesn't mean that all pilots are good leaders or even good people. It simply means that pilots come from a pool that is stress-inoculated, studious, and highly adaptable. Those are known qualities that can contribute to the growth of a good leader. But that person has to be properly mentored. Properly taught humility. Properly taught how to lead by example. Properly given the chance to failure in an environment where mistakes can be made and learned from. (for another post, but this is exactly why the service academies exist) A generation ago, they understood the value of doing difficult things for the positive impact it a makes on one's character. A smart man once pointed out that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. Instead of a society pursuing character and hope, we now live in an instant-gratification-every-thought-and-emotion-I-have-deserves-an-audience-and-it's-your-fault-my-life-is-so-unfair society. The Air Force is simply reflecting that. Promoting self-servers and a lack of mission focus are just a couple symptoms of that fact. I argue that the collapse in the Air Force is due to moral decay. You can't swing a dead cat these days without hitting an O-6 convicted of sexual harassment or conduct unbecoming. With moral fiber like that, is there any doubt why the AF is failing? No amount of promotion process fixes can correct a lack of moral conscience. Until individuals start holding themselves to a higher standard, learning what sacrificial servant leadership is about, and learning how to pursue character, we will continue to see the fallout of moral collapse. FF

In my experience certain people have different learning curves, no matter how equal the snowflakes want to make us. If you fly your MF ass off for the first 4-6 years in your given MWS and pick things up fairly quickly, your probably set for life given 5-7 flights a month and time to attend squadron academics and self study. I have seen 40 year olds that couldn't start the jet correctly, so giving a frag does mean something. I also think there are a lot of people who think they are "good in the jet" and they are dismal failures, I am not one of them, I am good. (or was, story for a future post) On a side note, CE does some good stuff, but I have to harken back to a world famous Flying Fiends Show of Colors tradition of statements in a "What if" format. "What if" support did.

What needs to define a "technical track", if getting passed over for O-5 and continued indefinitely isn't it? If the ACIP went up to 10k a month...I think we might find some valid competition with the airlines. How does the Air Force compete with an organization that will pay you twice as much for less than half the work, while dropping out 95% of the shitty parts? How are rated promotion rates and retention even connected? If you were punching as an O-4, who would change their mind based on a promotion to O-5? Bendy Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Hhhm, No. Don't get me wrong, when TC first wrote his Dear Boss letter a half decade ago, I was one of the ones up on my desk jumping and cheering. But the brand has tarnished, that's for sure. As a metaphor, think about other media sources that you've seen handle aviation stories, for instance. Once you have an expert working knowledge of a field, then see it mangled by journalists who only take the time to get a half inch deep understanding of what they then write about, you get the point. In this case, JQP (or whoever is currently carrying the nom de plume) has seized on nothing in an attempt to shake the tree for fruit. I've gotten into more than a handful of bar conversations about the veracity of JQP over time. Bar conversations with folks that have a more intimate knowledge of certain events than I do, and they take a much more jaundiced eye toward JQP, and it's often telling. This story in particular, (if you can manage to get yourself past the CC's haircut and nugget for a moment) is toilet paper thin. It's a policy letter. Read 1-2. The CC is clearly articulating policy, not much more. Since when did unit PT become some abhorrent punishment? Really? Are we a part of UAW now? Can't organize PT unless the union bosses approve? There's plenty that's fucked up about our PFT model. Lets start with a 6'2" dude waist measuring the same as a 5'4" dude: doesn't pass the logic test, but here we are. But if someone is min-running the numbers and the CC wants to attempt a glove save; a CC that actually wants to engage his NCOs to lead; a CC that actually wants to (gasp) Organize, Train, and Equip his squadron for success; that is now offensive? FFS, this is a far cry from the Dear Boss letter that lamented the neutered state of a sitting commander.

No truer words have been spoken.

Make them tell you no (like the guy above me said, they will tell you why). Only thing I would recommend is to retake that AFOQT. You can get the pilot score in the 90's if you study hard, and that will bring your PCSM up. In the meantime keep applying to every unit you can. Good luck!

The one hole in your long post is that without the pilot/flying/operations side of the Air Force, there is no Air Force ....regardless of how good capt snuffy is at leading his 200 CE troops or running an mpf. If there's no tip of the spear left, then all you have is a shaft.

Intellectual exercise. Please take the question as that and not sport b1tching against zipper-suited sun gods: Lots of complaints since the results of the last board(s) released (and even more since Air Force time began). Comments about "saving the top 15% of a commander's strats for pilots" or the like abound. I do not for a minute defend how Big Blue does promotions (trust me, I have my own war story that absolutely no one but me cares about anyway), but if you are going to complain, then at least spend a few minutes on a way to fix it (that will never be considered. The leviathan likes what it does since what it does got those in power there in the first place.) A few comparison have been made about MX guys and other support fields leading airmen while highly-qualified pilots are doing the mission. I agree, but think bigger. The ops personnel in the Air Force are, largely, technicians. Highly, and expensively, trained, but still technicians. Even AC's of big jets run a very small fire-team equivalent. Again, stay with me. Not at all blowing off the absolute library of information that every pilot has to know, the amount of buffoonery he/she has to overcome in order to accomplish the mission, etc, etc, etc. But the actual operating and employing the equipment - jet, missile capsule, computer keyboard, satellite keyboard - is the job of a technician. Obviously, not including the CC or DO of a unit (but USAF does a piss poor job of getting those people practice at the junior ranks so a good one is more a matter of luck than training/growth). IF, again, IF the purpose of a promotion board is to reward and encourage the growth of future leaders, then doesn't the technician enter the fight at a disadvantage? Leave aside the PME and other square-fills, but the currency here seems to be "being good in the jet." Which I don't disagree with. Uncle spent a helluva lot of money on you, and you expended a helluva lot of sweat to earn the wings, then keep them and be awesome (hopefully) at employing the jet. He opened his wallet to make you a world-class technician, in my opinion. He's hoping that you'll figure out on your own how to be a good leader. Not a great investment strategy in my mind since if you don't, Big Blue will get rid of you. So if the board is looking at leadership, then Capt Snuffy leading a flight of 200 would seem to have an advantage over Capt Bag O' who, even though a Patch and a mission commander, might lead a flight of 10 at the squadron. Apples to razor blades comparison regarding level of difficulty in the warfighting, but technical, aspect. But the amount of asspain in dealing with 200 airmen does equate in time and frustration for that captain as it does for the jet-jockey captain who is held back by the shoe-world. As an aside, and one that won't gather much agreement, the proposal to auto-give the top strats to rated over support does seem to be against basic fairness. As an institution, the Air Force already does that, at least so far, with the numbers of support GOs compared to the numbers of rated GOs. We are the Air Force, after all, so the big chief should be a rated guy. But the mantra of a rated guy running AFPC and doing a better job just because he's rated seems a little unionized to me (he wouldn't do a worse job, very much agreed!). But if Capt Snuffy sees he has no chance of a successful career simply because of his job, then he, like you will punch and take his talent and skills where he can advance. The difference between him and you, largely and a huge generalization, is the amount of money Big Blue spent on you. And in today's environment, you have some golden opportunities which I wish you well and hope you go for it. But if he leaves, Big Blue has to spend its resources on finding his replacement as well. Much cheaper to do so, admittedly, but a few hundred here, a few hundred there, and pretty soon it's some real money. One proposal has been the promote by AFSC. How long until the b1tching about 11Fs far out-promoting 11Rs? Or pick your shred-out to complain about. My thinking runs somewhere along the lines of making a dual-tracked commissioned and call it whatever you want, but for my purposes, warrant officer program. Similar in concept to Army rotary wing, but not run the same. You still have to grow future WG/CCs, etc, but you make the officer pilot a leader at a much younger age. Put MX back into a squadron and have Capt Bag O' be a department head (er, sts) like the Navy does. True, he won't likely be your Night 1, #1 guy, but there is no reason he couldn't be #3 or the second -4-ship lead. You also reduce the need for the MX officers. Meanwhile, your Warrants are the tactical technicians that you all seem to strive for. BTW, the pay for these Warrants would be a very special duty pay like ACP but much larger. Fly and you get a lot of money but don't have the BS PME and other squares that Big Blue demands. But you have to fly to get it. Soooo many holes in this way too long post to identify, but the bottom line is the Air Force says it promotes based on past performance, including leadership and on the expectation that you will continue to perform and lead, with more emphasis on the latter as you progress in rank. A flyer not in a command position would seem to be defensive at the board merge.

Ops was out-promoted by support....I have no words. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Turn the news off, go outside, and do something manly. If something newsworthy happens, it will show up in cartoons or you will be called to deploy. Being "hyper informed" and wringing your hands on the Internet will not change the course of events.

that took some balls.

Should I just text your girlfriend when I need something after hours?

I did it too, which really prepared me to be a SOF in my opinion. But it wasn't a two person job. The Ops Sups are pretty old school like you shouldn't be here sitting next to me. The Lts were just answering phones, not filing flight plans or printing NOTAMs for a formation..etc.

So what you're saying is you didn't read, nor have you learned to construct an argument with supporting facts. However I think you're saying that: -only enlisted could ever lead enlisted -every career field should be insular Sounds like a recipe for success.

Nobody has died from not receiving a set of TMO orders on time. You might want to read that post again. When you can tie a Lts death into TMO orders you are looking at the AF through a soda straw. There is a huge shortage of personnel in maintenance. Guess what? They would rather get out to go to school full time instead of staying in the AF. Not having the right amount of people to fix jets is far more dangerous than anything. You can't have an enlisted force and not educate them. The more enlisted we have in maintenance permits more of them to go to school and become better maintainers. Taking college classes is a part of being promoted outside of WAPs and CDC testing. You think maintainers are going to stay in knowing they can't even get their CCAF? I guess you don't care about them taking care of themselves or your jet with your mindset. Its far more dangerous to that Lt to have a shortage of maintainers who have a piss poor attitude and low morale because they can't go to school at ALL and are being over worked. Maintainers and pilots are leaving because QOL is so great (sarcasm). Last time I checked, we have a shortage of pilots and maintainers due to QOL. That impacts combat capability, not sending someone to college classes after work. How could you ever say allowing people to go to school impacts the mission in a negative way?

Its not that black and white. There are two hour waits at the pharmacy because a civilian walked off the job. Waits at the clinic on getting referrals off base due to manning. Just like the pilot retention issue, lots of AFSCs at bases are not adequately manned. Sequestration wasn't that long ago in my mind and we are still feeling it. If we don't have the manning for something, I'm not going to kill my airmen by making them work until 8 pm. If I was a support CC, I would be that guy to take care of my airmen. Is someone going to die because you receive your TMO orders late? Or do I need to take away their morning PT and have half the squadron fail the test? There is a huge disconnect between how you view the AF and how I view things. Some enlisted can't work late as single parents because they have to pick there kids up at the CDC after work. I don't know if you are married and have kids, but if you don't then that's why you can't relate. I am not married and I don't have any kids just to put that into perspective for you. A lot of enlisted members attend classes directly after work. You want to tell the education office your 3 airmen failed classes because you made them work late everyday. The AF pays for those classes. On this forum we have all talked about being stretched far too thin with personnel. You are seeing what happens on the support side when they are not adequately manned. If you don't have enough pilots, you can't pull them out of your ass. You have to cut back on the mission until manning permits otherwise.

Why would I want any pilot to be put in charge of any support function? I told a previous CC he sucked ass dealing with the E's. His valid excuse was never being around enlisted. This is a dumb ass concept to think you can do better at another officers job just because you are a pilot. Get over yourselves. People who think they can do any officers job in the AF and be 100% effective is WRONG. I never needed a SNCO to tell me what to do as an officer. As a prior, I know what an enlisted airman needs. It's hard to lead someone if you never walked a mile in their shoes. I'm that guy that told the shirt no you are not taking "A1C Need for Speed" driving privileges away on base because he got a ticket off base. Then he got another ticket on base for a stop sign or something. The kid was about to deploy and I told the shirt that's a dumb ass punishment. I went old school on the A1C and needless to say, the problem was resolved. I don't need a SNCO telling me how to handle the enlisted. If you need a seeing eye dog as an officer, you shouldn't be a CC or put in charge of E's period. Some of you think airmen should spend a day in ops. Airmen should never have to spend a day learning about ops or supporting it. They selected the jobs they have for a reason. I give 2 craps about how you fuel your plane. I chose intel as my enlisted job to be indoors so I don't have to be on a hot ass aircraft parking spot pumping fuel. My focus should be on our adversaries, not how to launch an F-22. Don't piss in my Cheerios and I won't piss in your Wheaties.

Quibbling. Take a shot. (You made your points.....but still.....take a shot) Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

This is the equivalency of you living in a great middle class neighborhood. However, I live in a drug infested trailer park. Then you trying to tell me you totally understand what I go through. No you don't understand. You cannot relate to me at all. You will be a more effective leader with the enlisted if you can actually relate to them in general. Leading isn't about barking orders. You need compassion and have to be able to understand the enlisted you are trying to lead. Comm doesn't need to come over to ops. Why don't you go over to the comm building and establish a relationship with their airmen, NCOs, or SNCOs. Try talking to them like human beings and it might get you somewhere. The ops vs support mentality is growing tired and old. Are CCs actually talking to each other to resolve these issues? It starts at the top and some issues might get fixed if people tried it. When my Lt was trying to get CFPS and other software installed, it sounded like he was being a dick to comm. I should have asked him did he try hooking comm up by using backdoor AF policy of handing out booze.