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I think this is a valid point. And you should be skeptical after the terrible track record the USAF has displayed re: personnel decisions over the last ten years. If you are not continually skeptical about bureaucracy, you're a babe in the woods. Had the retirement system NOT changed, I'd say that's exactly what this is, disguised as a QOL/Service improvement... which, true, arguably it is. But don't kid yourselves. The USAF doesn't give a crap about your QOL. There is little difference between this and the change to a ten year post-UPT commitment that happened back in the day - both are designed to get you to the next hook, over the next hump so they keep you till retirement age - or now since we have a new retirement system, keep you through the 'thin years' where dudes bail due to pending staff and non-jet-fying assignments until it's time to do something else. I will say this - if you are lucky, they send you back, but you're never as good as you were when you were a Captain with a star on your wings. At least Im not... Cheers, Chuck

From my perspective as a career fighter/trainer guy in the AF, and now having flown at both the regionals and the majors...could not disagree more. Herding airliners around the sky, from both an airmanship/decisionmaking/judgment/thinking perspective and a stick-and-rudder perspective, is "vastly" easier than 90% of the tasks I had to perform even as a wingman in the Strike Eagle. The military flying required greater "headwork" and flying skills on an acute basis, task-for-task and hour-for-hour. There are a good number of airline pilots that I work with now who would not last a day doing what I did for a career in the AF -- and I now, sadly, have to include myself in that description. My skills have atrophied even in a couple years of droning in the flight levels and babysitting the FMS. Even the most challenging situations I've run up against -- maintenance issues, challenging weather, dealing with unruly pax -- don't require the skill and proficiency I had even a handful of years ago when I was turning-and-burning for a living.

Yep. In my case, when I witnessed the forced separation of 160-some majors back in 2011 (ish) followed almost immediately by the activation of TERA authority, for a nearly identical group of people, I realized just how important the AF viewed its people, and also how arbitrary and fickle continued service could be. "Hmm. I just got the boot, but the other 15-yr major across the street gets to retire? Exsqueeze me? Baking powder?" AF leadership needs to realize that their decisions enacted through AFPC and other entities are watched very closely and create a certain lasting "tenor" within the force that have effects on retention for many years in the future. This latest decision may be in a similar vein.

93.5 ish percent promotion rate for IPZ 15% of APZ rate

Us airline guys will just have to settle for the "puppet" and "bus driver" pay/schedule versus the T-6 triple-turns your Flt/CC and IP's are doing in the July heat. We all make decisions and we have to be ready to face the consequences. Now, back to boat shopping...

Bro, based off this picture, I don't know anyone that would be considering that movie.

I think that's what they call dynamic followership. AFPC sent some shit to my email about it not that long ago...didn't read it, but I think that was it. Leadership -> getting people to think what they want is what you want. Followership -> getting people to think what they want is what you want. Makes sense, Bendy Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

This. Unless you're looking to be a martyr, the best answer is the one where they think you're doing what they want, while you do what you want instead Sent from my Vitamix 450x Professional using Tapatalk

You still get a pension with it, just at a reduced rate compared to the legacy system. There's also the promise of (additional) mid-career bonuses. A lot of the spreadsheets I've seen have come out surprisingly close depending on the input variables. WRT the question above, for dudes who plan to bail in a year or two and are sure they're going cold turkey, it's a no-brainer as something > nothing.

I wouldn't consider living down the street from you as any kind of good deal. Most people plan to avoid such things. :)

As a UPT student airlines shouldn't even be in your mind.

Whether they leave the USAF at the 11, 15, 20 or 28 year point, 80% of the people saying this will eventually fly for the airlines. Enjoy your time in UPT. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame.

This is not about a dick measuring contest. My beef is that the porch is sending inexperienced wingmen to the Eielson aggressors because they supposedly have no choice. Worse still, these wingmen are coming off only one year in Korea. A remote assignment they went to with the PROMISE of a follow on regular tour. Going to the aggressors essentially freezes their development as fighter pilots. It's not a problem to go as a senior 4FL or an IP, but it is a death blow to a young fighter pilot's development. A terrible breech of trust. So AFPC breaks that promise and sends them to the 18AGRS. Fine...we "have no choice" and have a problem absorbing all the wingmen in the CAF. Needs of the Air Force and all that. Yes sir, service before self...got it. Then, THE VERY SAME WEEK these guys are learning about the breaking of the promise, these wingmen are hearing about this crossflow. I'd be livid. Worse still, if it were me, my mind about staying one day past my commitment would be made up. No fvcking way. How many other young wingmen are watching??? AFPC's justification, btw, is some bullshit about a net gain of fighter pilots via this crossflow. Of course, they're not factoring the 36 CAF wingmen that just watched this happen. YGBSM. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Pick the battles that are big enough to matter, but small enough to win....

I knew before I even showed up to UPT that I was going to try to be an airline pilot. I didn't announce it to the world, but if asked, I didn't hide it. If they didn't like my answer, fuck'em, my long term goals were none of their business. WRT the best pilots...whatever. All I know is that, as an airline guy, I'm more appropriately compensated in $$$ and time off. The rest, no one cares about but you.

My advice is enroll as soon as they let you. That way you can say you started it. Had a buddy do that and it protected him from several bad deals since it made him look like a "team player". He never even finished the first module. Winning... Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

The problem with that though is one of you will PCS in less than two years and your next boss may not share his sentiments. Food for thought. FWIW, ACSC BVR is not hard. It does take some time, though. You can min-run and be done in about 5-6 months. Like it or not, not completing it will be tantamount to burning a bridge.

This is my exact sentiment, and I've told me Sq/CC as much. I told him point blank that I don't care about school, or anything beyond flying and hacking the mission. Thankfully, he's actually a good leader and supports dudes who don't care about wasting time simply for the sake of wasting time, but also told me not to be surprised if I never promote above Maj. Fine by me. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

There's a guy in my reserve unit that is one seniority number from being able to bid to live in domicile. He's been stuck there for almost a year. $30,000 is one month's worth of captain's pay. It's hard to understand what even just a little bit of seniority means in this business. If you want to fly for the airlines for the rest of your working life, get out as soon as you can.

How many people know they aren't going to do 20 years at the beginning of their career? Maybe guys figure it out 5 years in, but at that point they've given up 5 years of matching and compound interest. How many guys that get out at 12 eek out a reserve retirement through the guard and reserve? The total benefit for 10 years of 5% match is what, $35k? $40k? For an officer who has a 4 year ADSC, it may be a no brainer. For an officer with a 10 year ADSC, it is not.

Yeah, yeah - you know what I mean. Besides making a point here in this discussion, I don't normally go around saying these things to any young UPT/MQT student I see.

From a myPers FAQ sent to our OG today regarding the recent DE selection changes: Question: What is the expectation for when officers should complete IDE or SDE by distance learning? Answer: Officers should consult with their commander, SR, or mentor on the timing of completing DE. Additionally, they should seek feedback on their competitiveness to receive a SR nomination to attend in residence. If advised to complete DE via distance learning, then officers should complete it at a time when it is best for them but IDE should be completed before the primary promotion board to LTC and SDE should be completed before the primary promotion board to COL. I like the fact that we're getting rid of school selects during promotion boards, but it sounds like practice bleeding is back with a vengeance! 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

Well, I read this two ways/have two opinions: 1) The flt/cc and/or IPs are trying to tell you that if you are only here to get your ticket into the airlines, you are here for the wrong reasons. What we do as military pilots may be similar (MAF) or not that close beyond the fact we are both in airplanes (CAF), but either way, this isn't Embry Riddle, so if that's what you are here for, get out. I see nothing wrong with setting that expectation right up front, especially with all the airline/AF exodus in the news; we don't want LTs who are just waiting for their clock to run out so they can go fly for the big 4 (we have enough O-4s doing that...) 2) You're goddamn right I'm better than an airline pilot. I'm also the best fighter pilot in the Air Force. If you don't believe me, come fly with me and I'll prove it. I say that with some sarcasm, but I also know I spent ten solid hours of academics about 2 months ago (and probably 480 more of self study) learning about to use M7.1 in my mighty viper and efficiently employ the 69 different weapons we carry. Not once did we talk about the fact that I am also flying an airplane at the same time (by myself #singleseat), and I'll have to recover it (via hand flying!) sometimes to 200' on an ILS. And I might have 3 wingmen following me around as well. That is just assumed. So when an entire airline pilot's - sorry, crew's - job is to take off, go somewhere else, and land, which is all of .80% of my cranium, yeah, I'll feel a bit superior. They can get butt hurt about that and cry during their drive home in their Maserati and lick their wounds while they don't work for a week, while I sweat my ass off in MOPP4. That's fine, that's the deal, and you bet your ass I envy them in some aspects. However, I also don't go around telling everyone I am better than an airline pilot, and they are just idiot bus drivers, or whatever. That's just poor form and seems petty. They have their benefits (QoL, money, etc) and I have mine (BFM, dropping weapons, shooting the gun, Red Flag, etc). No need for name calling, especially since some of them have been here and done this (ref Hacker above and many, many others on this forum)

Unfortunately in some communities flying can become an additional duty depending on what your ground job is.

Only if you make it that way or if your leadership sucks in my opinion. Hiring civilians for squadrons is a step in the right direction though to your point. Being merely adequate at ground duties that don't impact people's lives (training, etc) is good enough. Ball wash doesn't matter. The only thing that does is flying and the duties involving or related to flying such as instruction to make guys better, mission planning, debriefing, etc.

I'm talking about your paid 3 month European vacation…..and Bendy and Evil can suck it for liking your post. Living down the street from me is a gift, I expect worship. Now how do I like my own post.

Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious about your opinion...in what ways? Interesting you'd phrase it with "a lot of" and "vastly"... I feel like that very strongly worded generalization is unlikely, but I wouldn't doubt many cases on an individual basis. I think we miss the mark with basic airmanship often in the Air Force, but civilians have proven to be no different. Just curious, Bendy Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

That's my whole point: AFPC thinks this is a "smart move" because they get to net-gain a few CAF pilots, while forgetting about the trust relationship that they have been trying to repair. CAF wide, all the young CGOs watching this are taking notes and wondering if the Porch and A1 actually mean it when saying "guys...we know we've fvcked up...and we promise things will be different from now on." Empty words? You be the judge. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

The Grass Is Always Greener... sometime that's 100% true and sometimes someone comes and pisses on your grass when you least expect it. Life is all about timing. For some of us going to the airlines right now is what I would consider very good timing. For those that are still wet behind the ears and have at least 10 more years ahead of them in the military - you have no idea what the airline industry is going to be like in 10 or 12 years when you're ready to make that decision. The airline industry could very well be in the crapper in 12 years like it was 12 years ago. Join the military to fly military aircraft and be ready for everything that comes along with that. I think we'll see things get better in the Air Force because I don't think our leaders have a choice anymore. Will it get better during my career? Probably not, but I'm guard now and have a little bit more flexibility with my military career. I can say though that it's to the point where coming in and doing the military thing is just for a paycheck and for a retirement at this point. It's just not that fun anymore and that's unfortunate because it's supposed to be one of the best jobs in the world, right? As far as the IP's go at UPT, I'm sure some of it is airline pilot envy. I'm sure a lot of it is jealousy because they're not in the right place at the right time so it's Human Nature for some to put something down that you can't have. In reality probably somewhere around 40% of airline pilots are veterans of the military so I'm not quite sure why they would take the time to put airline pilots down. In a lot of ways airline pilots, even ones that weren't in the military, are vastly superior aviators. On the other hand constant talk about commercial flying and insinuating that the Air Force is going to be your stepping stone to the airlines can be a distraction and at the end of the day you're there to learn how to fly military aircraft and eventually focus on your MDS/WS mission. Do your time and do it well because the country and quite frankly the rest of the world depends on you. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

You get retired pay once per month at the end of the month. So your first retired paycheck will be 31 July. I retired 30 April 2015. My paychecks were on 4/15/15 for the normal mid month amount, another on 5/20/15 for the remainder of my April paycheck plus the little bit of leave I sold back, and then my first retired paycheck was on 5/29/15. Monthly from that point on...

This.

Prior UPT IP, This surprises me, and I have to believe you just have an aggressive flight commander or something. When I spoke to students at UPT I always framed the discussion around keeping doors open, making sure you checked your boxes so long as you found it acceptable while in so that you had the opportunity to stay in and be promotable or get out. That means doing SOS/ACSC, that means getting your ATP, that means playing the volunteer for XYZ crap job for OPR fodder, as well as keeping your records up to date for future applications. Your IP's if they are making statements like this have failed in their role to be leaders / role models. I've had commanders in the past make statements like this, and they are all eating their own words now because they believed the economy would remain stagnant and the that military's gravy train would forever be to coveted to give up for uncertain job prospects outside. Their leadership was based on attempting to frighten their squadrons to shut up color and enjoy their pay check. Fact of the matter is we train pilots, period. Good ones at that (well mostly when we can push back on the all important PFT). That means we produce great Military pilots, that equates to great Airline pilots. Am I going to miss military flying once I hang up my green flight suit for good? Sure. Am I going to regret making a decision that protects my families future and my own sanity? No. Don't sweat these remarks too much, hopefully they are the exception not the rule. If they become the rule then maybe it is time to run as fast as you can. (Though your commitment is 10 years so maybe getting jaded now isn't the best idea =P)

Cheetos and War Games in a single thread? You guys finally get us!

The AF really has a chance to do right by itself in this midst of this (abrupt) change by clearly articulating to young officers right out the gate, and updates as the progress, the benchmarks that will be required to "on-ramp" and the time milestones associated with them rather than having guys "figure it out" along the way. If I was an '08 guy on the fence, the timing of this change would probably be a tick mark in the A-word column, but I respect CSAF's motives to get this change enacted quickly rather than continuing to admire the problem. All that to say, it's laughable that it's taking at least another week to effectively delete a column of data for a spreadsheet, come up with some talking points on a subject that's been discussed since at least Jan, and release. Great intent from CSAF, typical lackluster bureaucratic execution from the staff.

I believe this same thing happened at OKC just before they converted to the -135. I don't know all of the details but essentially, my understanding, one blade went flat and three feathered.

TL;DR: We like to think that pilots have to run the Air Force, but they got us into this mess. What other conclusion is left to be drawn? With very few exceptions, the Air Force is helmed up and down the chain by pilots. Groups, wings, NAFs, MAJCOMs, staff positions, functionals, CAOC spots, deployed units, IGs... Lots and lots of pilots. Who is responsible for the failings of an organization if not for the leaders? How many excuses are we supposed to make for them? And let's not play the "good dude" game either. Being a successful organizational leader is not about how fun you were to drink with 10 years ago, or how sh*t-hot you were in the jet, or how much you "get it" when you're having a closed door town hall with a random unit in their bar heritage room. There is only one measure-- how is the organization doing. The examples are legion. I'll give a few that have, over the years, stood out as very distilled, specific instances of poor leadership. 1. DV visits. If I had a dollar for every DV that said they didn't want the base to stop doing it's mission to prepare for their arrival after they arrived, you'd think I was paying my way through medical school the old fashioned way. If you can't fathom the way your rank and position affect your subordinates in an organization you've been a part of for 30+ years, on what planet should you be leading it? Can we all just finally admit that yes, they do want it? They like it a lot. Even if not for themselves, then for what they believe the military should look like. But most likely because that type of treatment is addictive. Name one theory of leadership taught in any level of PME that promotes the type of behavior we see when senior leaders visit a base. Did they skip those classes? Because I have a f*cking masters degree in it from ACSC. 2. We have been at the Deid since what? 2002? I have no clue. A long time. And of those years, every. single. summer. has been excruciatingly hot. Yet somehow, despite there being an airport right down the road in the exact same climate with hundreds of flights per day, leadership at AUAB has not figured out how to get every plane suitable air conditioning for the preflight. Seriously? Some flight doc measured the internal surfaces of the aircraft at over 160F, and the air temp inside a boom pod at over 140. This isn't a war against the Axis in an austere location, it's normal ops. If you can't look at that as a leader (and one who has flown planes!) and deduce that there should be adequate cooling for the aircraft... RyanAir is the human equivalent of a Pakistani poultry trailer without the rights activists, yet they manage to keep the planes cool on the ground. Oh, and let's not forget about the black mold that no leader saw fit to address until Congress heard about it. 3. Of course, the pilot crisis. And not that it happened, not the years of neglect that led up to it, not the countless forums and round-tables, and hangar-flies that went ignored, while the CGO/Maj force screamed for attention. I actually understand how we got to where we are today. What I don't get is how now that the problem exists, announced, published, and even presented to congress, how can we still be bungling the response? This thread is proof. Changes to the promotion process? Secret. Timeline? Mystery. People who apply for the bonus early? Gotcha! I'm not saying pilots can't make great organizational leaders. I'm sure some are great. But we have two things to compare: A. That a war-fighting organization can be effectively led by selecting from a small percentage of the overall population (pilots) those who demonstrate over the first half of their career a talent for paperwork, physical fitness, administrative tasks, and personal presentation, but who generally have little to no experience leading people until squadron command. This, as of today, is an unproven theory. B. That a war-fighting organization led by a small percentage of the overall population (pilots) who demonstrated over the first half of their career a talent for paperwork, physical fitness, administrative tasks, and personal presentation, but who generally have little to no experience leading people until squadron command, will crumble under external pressures, e.g., Congressional inquiries, workforce competition, etc. This, as of today, is supported by the evidence. If pilots make such great organizational leaders, I'd love to see it. Check rides aren't graded on who had the best attitude. I'd rather choke that go through it, but I'm guessing WIC grads, the best of our pilots, didn't get their patch because they filled out the 781s better than anyone else. No one cares how your flight suit looks if you show up the the ARCP late. The flying world, last I checked, prides itself of results-based assessment, yet when it comes to leading the organization, we abandon the principal for proclamations of past dudeliness... At some point we have to assign responsibility. If you want to say that it's just because we are picking the wrong pilots for the job, fine, but guess what? Pilots are the ones doing the picking. Pilots are the ones who have signed off on our ludicrous promotions system. Pilots are the ones standing by silently while the legal system is twisted to suit the preferences of a vindictive wing commander. Pilots are the ones telling congress it's pretty darn good. Pilots are the ones telling young captains to quit if they don't like it, someone will gladly replace them. Please, tell me why I'm wrong.

Fast forward 2 weeks, we find out it was a meth lab explosion caused by one of the employees trying to "borrow" some of the facilities for some overtime work. It is the pan handle of Florida we're talking about after all...

122FS (F-15C) is having a board during October drill (13-15 Oct) by invitation. Please see the LA ANG is hiring thread for details and drill dates for visits. We have openings for experienced as well as UPT hopefuls!

To each their own. If the state wants to give me free license plates for life, then I will take it. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Soooo, in this brave new world we're experiencing, are the 72 virgins gender-specific? Asking for a friend...

Is she a predator? After your wife yells at your son for him hooking up with his teacher and it being nationally televised do you as a father do the following with your son? A. High five your son. B. Ask him how was his first time. C. Ask for his teachers number. D. Say, I'm the proudest father on the AFB base now. E. All of the above