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Some of you are quick to give up rights. Here's the problem: once they're gone, you'll never get it back. The Second Amendment protects our right to bear arms just like the First Amendment protects our right to free speech (Congress shall make no law). It's not a negotiable document. As stated above, we have a violence problem and a mental health problem in this country. Making law abiding citizens into criminals won't solve that. Punishing the millions of law abiding gun owners because of the acts of a few psychopaths won't solve that either. Whether you agree with it or not, the Second Amendment was designed to defend the First Amendment. We are absolutely intended to be as well armed as the military because the founders wanted the government to fear the people and not the other way around. We've already given up enough (NFA, etc). Now is not the time to give up because of one horrific incident. It's a very slippery slope.

And back in the founding father’s days, you could buy or make weapons on par with, or superior to, the military and government weapons of the day. I want a hellfire missile.

The second amendment is not about hunting. The second amendment is not about a home invasion. The second amendment is not about “toys”. The constitution does not grant rights. Neither does the government. The constitution enumerates our rights. The constitution does not empower government. It limits government. Kinda surprising to be having this conversation on this forum; expecting it from progressives.

Shall not be infringed. It's the only justification necessary.

Eagle Driver Commemorative Watch

It's not ridiculous, because that's how the argument needs to be framed. The world does not have a "gun violence" problem, or a "Ryder truck violence" problem. It has a violence problem. Madmen commit violence. That's where we need to focus our efforts and our arguments. Madmen have used fertilizer, airplanes, fire, gas chambers, trucks, pressure cookers, bombs, guns, knives, hammers, and rope. The chosen method is irrelevant. Guns have taken on this bigger than life persona when they are simply tools. AR-15s are ideally suited for plenty of non-murderous tasks, just like rope is good for a lot more than lynching. If the locomotive of society decides that guns are bad, there's no stopping the degradation of our rights. But we'll simply find that when you peel away the "tool" layer, you're still left with a core of violence. The Brits are learning this now as they move to rearm their police. So as to the better idea, let's start with the family. How can we reinforce the family so it can serve as a training ground for acceptable behavior?

As a pro second amendment, multi-pistol, multi-AR rifle gun owner, I have to agree that simply saying “but it’s my right in the constitution” isn’t going to keep working. I don’t want my guns taken, banned or taxed into oblivion. But IMO, there’s an upper limit on what type of “arms” can reasonably be protected by the 2nd Amendment and this massacre may very alter that dynamic. Where that line is drawn is a question that is very difficult to answer.

You're talking theory. We agree on the theory. I'm talking reality. And the reality is that gun owners, including the people in this thread, do a shitty job of persuading people of these theories. If enough people disagree with you, you lose your guns. That's it. Sure, a bunch of us will puff up and say something silly like "pry them from my cold dead hands." But most of us will hand them over when forced to choose between being a martyr and one day walking your daughter down the isle. We have three options. 1) Continue refusing to educate and debate, and rule out all changes to the law/new restrictions. Law changes, guns are confiscated. Freedom suffers. 2) Continue refusing to educate and debate, and rule out all changes to the law/new restrictions. Law changes. 2a) Some gun owners refuse and are killed/imprisoned in their righteous stand 2b) Most gun owners refuse and we get a catalyst to a civil war. 3) Gun owners accept that the 2nd amendment never envisioned what is possible with firearms today. They further accept that even if the framers would have loved machine guns, amendments can be amended. They start working to put a real argument together as to why 59 people should be executed at a concert so they can have removable magazines, silencers, hollow points, etc. This is not an impossible task, but it will take more than "freedom isn't free" or "Do you support the Constitution or not." You know what's great about a civil war? All the early adopters die. I'd rather avoid that. I think republicans/conservatives need to unilaterally pass legislation (important to not include any anti-gun people, to avoid legislative creep) that makes it harder for someone to go crazy and kill people. Lots of fucking people. I think limitations on how quickly one can obtain weapons is a fair trade. Cooling off periods, limitations to how many guns you can buy at once. Expanded background checks. I don't know if those are the right answers, but I know "do nothing" isn't. You can disagree, and I'm sure many do, but I know I wouldn't be able to look a widow, or daughter, or father in the eye and say "sucks dude, but this is the cost of freedom." This wasn't a battle. No one took a stand, no one made a choice. There will be no justice; the killer is already gone, just how he wanted it. I'm not trying to change your minds. I'm really not. I'm still trying to internalize this disaster and work my way through what I believe it means for the future of gun rights. What I want is for you to think about where your head would be if your wife just had her head canoed while enjoying some music. If we don't argue it from that position, we lose. https://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/10/03/country_musician_changes_mind_on_gun_control_after_las_vegas_shooting.html That's the only chance we have at keeping our guns. /Devil'sAdvocate

If the only outcome is that bump fire stocks are outlawed, the NRA will be lucky. And they should have been illegal already. I'm a big fan of the 2nd. Bigly in favor of it. But you can't answer this massacre with "that's the price of freedom." Gun owners need to be ready to justify all the toys we have access to. At the moment I'm having a difficult time thinking of a justification for removable magazines.

We're trying to rationalize the response to an inconceivable evil. The fact that this evil committed the deadliest mass shooting in the US without ANY indicator(s) / motive (that we know of as of today) goes far beyond any political gun debate, and that's why it's driving everyone absolutely fucking crazy.

So guns are uninvented. There are no guns. Browning was never born. Instead of 59 killed and hundreds injured on the strip, a truck drives into the crowd and kills 86 and injures 458. Instead of gunfire, a pressure cooker bomb is left in the crowd and injures 170. Now what? Somehow when a gun is involved, everyone has a quick-fix "solution." When it's anything other than a gun, nobody has a fucking clue what to do to keep it from happening.

Guard, Reserves and Internationals purchase a slot for their folks in each training course. These spots are pre-programmed by AETC so their people make it through the pipeline with minimal downtime between courses. This saves a lot of $ with man-days, per diem and moving costs while providing the units with a predictable flow of personnel.

You'll lose. Automatics are illegal. Grenades. We need to do better than arguing the old men who wrote the 2nd amendment surely would have been cool with what happened in Vegas. Automatics are not illegal and neither are grenades. Why would using the Second Amendment cause me to lose? Do you support the Constitution or not?

I hear what you are saying but I doubt it went down like that. I was in a hotel for three days last week and kept the do not disturb sign on the entire time, I don't like people in the room around my stuff, he could have easily done the same. Also, you are assuming he used gun cases...this guy obviously planned this out and I am betting he was smart enough to pack and transport stuff in nondescript containers, luggage, or boxes. This guy was smart enough to find a perfect ambush overlook sight and install a bump fire stock. I don't think it takes a great leap of imagination to think he could package his weapons to look like anything but weapons and make a several trips over the course of three and a half days to get his weapons unobserved into his room. I know I could. Unless you are advocating we search every person entering every building in the country you won't stop this type of situation from occurring when there is a determined madman.

Really? On family trips I've had baggage carts loaded with all kinds of stuff (including weapons), and no one has ever said a word. He was there for a few days, I would bet he used a push cart a few times and it looked like bags or boxes.

Race is neither an analog for culture nor economic status, FWIW. There are people from every race that have a "disadvantaged background". No race has the market cornered in western society on "advantage" or "disadvantage", because race is a meaningless quality in a meritocracy. Nonetheless, even when speaking of economic or social status, "equality" doesn't mean "equity." We don't have equity, nor in a society that values both individual liberty, egalitarianism, and personal responsibility do we desire such a thing. It is the "land of equal opportunity", not the land of "equal outcomes".

You'll lose. Automatics are illegal. Grenades. We need to do better than arguing the old men who wrote the 2nd amendment surely would have been cool with what happened in Vegas.