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Lots of skills in the ELP are being learned. Energy management. Effect of wind on groundtrack. Planning ahead and adjusting on the fly. Knowing where my nearest emergency field is and whether I can make it there while concentrating on other tasks. Handling an emergency with a definitive time limit (time doesn't stand still in the jet like in stand up). Plus, every jet has the possibility of becoming a glider, we should be giving our pilots at least some exposure to forced landing in UPT to build that foundation of airmanship. ELPs are pretty much the only exposure T-6 studs get to handling emergencies in the jet, and which lays the foundation for staying cool, calm, and collected when things start going downhill. By the same token, why teach aerobatics? Or spins? Most pilots will never do those maneuvers in their MWS. But there's value added in doing those maneuvers-again, understanding energy, looking outside while maneuvering, etc. But I've got a bigger chance of my C-17 turning into a glider and executing a forced landing than me needing to barrel roll or do a spin recovery. It's all about laying a solid airmanship foundation for future instructors to build upon, versus teaching anew in a more expensive jet. Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

@Sopwith Camel I recently got picked up by a fighter unit with an 82 PCSM and a 2.56 GPA and first ever interview. I was also almost 28. It’s because I knew the pilots. I was told after the fact that guys with better scores got bumped out so I could get an interview and I had the lowest scores at the interview. It all comes down to knowing them. Contact a couple units you want to apply to and ask to go out there and get to know them. The longer they know you (and like you) the better chance you have. You could try joining a unit too? Being a crew chief gives you a lot of exposure to the pilots, they can see how your attitude is and watch how you work. Also, everyone likes hiring from inside their own unit family. Just a thought.

They are being trained. If you have an engine malf, return and land. If your engine fails, get out of the jet. SPs were never expected to recover an FL.

What do you know about a engine not working...or 4.... 😉

Ok, I'll give you a real answer, at least to the best of my somewhat dated knowledge. ART: Air Reserve Technician in the Reserves, or just Technician in the Guard. Salaried GS-XX (with comp time, etc) for the bulk of their paycheck; part-time military member for the other part of their paycheck. Es are usually GS-6-9; Os are usually 12-13, although I've lost track with the latest and greatest attempts to attract/retain people. Typically fulfills the basic squadron functions from ARMS to Airfield Ops to DOV to DOT. My last OG was a Technician. They are civilians in uniform M-F 0730-1630, not counting gym time, lunch time, etc. 😉 They transform into military personnel (E-3, O-4, etc) after hours if they fly that night, sit SOF, whatever. In that status, they get paid the same as the part-timers: 1x 4hr block is a period. Their status on any given day is way more complex than I have time for here. Sometimes they can fly in civilian status, sometimes they can't. Sometimes they take mil leave, sometimes they take leave without pay, sometimes they're flying after their ART day ends. Doesn't matter unless you're filling out the 781 or you're one of them. Can't get Tricare unlike every other part-time military service member, has an expensive federal pension plan, and can legally work some crazy long days. Typically must be a part-time military member to hold the ART job, although there are a few Technician only people floating around. They can work until 50-something as a GS, then they can retire and end up with a federal FERS pension and their DOD Guard/Reserve pension. AGR: Full time, salaried, military member. They're never a GS-anything, always a 1 on the 781. They get Tricare. They accrue years just like the active dude. They can PCS and go to school in res, but that varies between Guard/Reserve and I'm sure local norms. Certainly not the same PCS lifestyle as AD. My last ops squadron had ZERO AGR pilots. WG/CC had given all the AGR spots to MSG/MDG/etc. I've heard FWs have more AGRs for their alert missions. AGRs count against Congressional end strength, which is why it's not as easy as it should be to convert all ARTs to AGRs. They can retire at 20 years with check-of-the-month and Tricare just like the AD dude. They have a binding ADSC-like contract that historically has been easy to curtail. WOM is that might be getting harder as there are fewer guys lined up to take that AGR position. Administratively very similar to AD, but culturally as different as the unit they're in. AD: What can I say? Salaried, Tricare, will PCS, will deploy a lot, will probably try to go to Guard or Reserve at the end of their ADSC. All 3 are hemorrhaging people. None of the 3 can compete on salary or time off work with the airlines. Obviously if you want to live in NOLA and go fast, LAANG is a better fit than commuting to the MD-80 in DFW.

Hmm.... Newbie corrects a homophone on a 10-month old post. Hell of a first post. I'm sure you'll have lots to contribute on your second post. Thanks for signing up here at Baseops.net!

Then there was a lot of turn, climb, clean, and check talk for nothing. 🙄

You mean there’s none of this near Laughlin?

"Should" but not a reality. Gear up/auto pilot on with a decouple short final is a hell of an atrophy.

If you're looking for the pay tables. Pilots are paid at the 2181 (aircraft operator) rate. Click here and scroll all the way down to the bottom of the Occupation drop down. Then click on 0558 (0558A = Alaska, 0558H = Hawaii, 0558P = anywhere else NOT CONUS). Historically, wingman/FL started out at GS-12 step 1 and IPs started out at GS-13 step 1. As I mentioned in my previous post, they're now giving brand new flight leads GS-13 step 1 (with a tech bonus). If someone came off active duty with more quals (FAC-A/WO/etc..), and wanted a technician spot, some squadrons have been successful in bringing them in at a much higher step. Not certain, but I think we secured at GS-13 step 6 or 7 for a guy before. Each base/state is different so ymmv. If I remember correctly you moved up in steps via the following...1 year for steps 1-3, 2 years for steps 4-6, 3 years 7-9. That said, there are ways to step dudes up faster, but your leadership has to be willing to do that and there are some limitations on how often it can be done. From what I've seen with the this, is it can vary wildly depending on squadron leadership and state HRO. It used to be that our leadership rarely ever "quick stepped" (not sure of the proper term), but another Viper squadron in the state did it as a standard practice. As a technician you also get 48 UTAs, 36 AFTPs and 15 days of AT orders a year. These pay cards are worth 1/30th of your base pay + flight pay. If your squadron has an alert det you can also work that for some extra pay days. With all these extras, I think our techs are easily able to make an extra 35-50k+ on top of their base GS-13 pay. We do 4 day work weeks so that makes it easier for techs to make extra $$$. Also, our home station alert offers unique opportunities to make extra as well...without ending up like Fresno lol. If I were are young guy under the new retirement system and I could snag a GS-13 early, I would consider that over an AGR. With a step or two, the mil pay, current bonus and double dipping, you could easily be making over 150k as a young Captain. This becomes an easy decision if you plan on going to the airlines soon anyway. I'll take the extra cash now over a few extra retirement points (or whatever they get under the new system) for when I turn 60. If I were a guy coming of AD under the old system then I'd clearly want an AGR. Just remember that the taxman cometh with civ vs mil pay. I should caveat this entire post with the fact that in my 17 years in the ANG, I've been in pretty much every status you can be in BESIDES technician. I have just learned A LOT about it over the years and have seen it work for some.

X-Files: the truth (and data on time spent teaching ELPs) is out there. I never said the principles learned and airmanship developed from ELP training were invaluable...just that it is time wasted on a UPT student when leadership has decided that syllabus reductions (read: cuts) were going to occur. Over the past decade, how many dead stick landings have occurred in the military? How many times has en ELP ACTUALLY been executed? Not taking precautionary landings, but no shit engine out landings? Aerobatics teach energy management and visual lookout while under time constraints, so what’s your point? Two minor points: 1) the T-6 isn’t a jet 2) don’t fly into extreme thunderstorms and you won’t have to deadstick your C-17.

I hit 20 years last month, all as an officer and all promoted on time. I thought you might be interested in some gee whiz numbers from my 20-year career earning totals: Base Pay: $1,254,900 BAH/OHA: $411,531 BAS: $47,787 Language Pay: $80,573 OCONUS COLA: $120,740 Total: $1,915,530 The BAS really surprised me. That $250/month added up over 20 years. I also never got flight pay. My net worth is now $1,370,779. I’ve never had a 2nd job, my wife has never worked outside the home, I’ve never owned a house, and I didn’t inherit anything. That’s all from investing my military income, basically in S&P 500 index funds. Here are my totals: TSP: $380K Taxable index funds: $558K IRAs: $296K Cash, bonds, CDs: $137K I’ll add that I haven’t sold any investments since 2008, and that was only $4K of stock to fund a honeymoon. Everything else has been buy & hold for my entire career.

I personally would hope that commissioned officers entrusted with training other officers with flying multi-million dollar airplanes would be mature enough to not put themselves in these types of situations. If their nature is to get laid and damn the consequences, then invest in that youporn premium and jerk yourself into a stupor. For the love of God, don’t shit where you eat.

Understood. Some guys take more time to teach and vary in air sense. I ask again: why does that guy need a waiver based on number of hours alone? The syllabus (and from the sounds of it, the instructors) is built around either product showing up to PIT.

I think 19-09 is the first class completely on the new syllabus so they don't even have to do any ELPs, just an IP demo. 07 and 08 were on the old syllabus but had a bunch of stuff that was syllabus waived to try and match the new syllabus. ELPs were still taught to us but no focus on it during normal sorties, only had to do it prior to solo rides for currency. Still had to know the GK though.

The ART is a CSO, the AGR already has a line number, and the AD guy wishes he did. 😂

How many times since the T-6 has been in service has an ELP saved a plane? I doubt the effort we put into teaching it to students ever got payoff. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

Didn't have a clue back then...young, dumb, and just having fun...many friends bagged one or more in Her. Now just mentoring new owner/operators in their business jets. And looking over an old -1...my how things have changed. But I still miss Her.

We purchased a house in Abilene about 6 years ago. During that time, the oil market out west around Midland boomed and that had a very positive effect on Abilene real estate. It was already a strong market to begin with. Stay within your means and you can get a great house in the area. As far as "BRACability", I find it unlikely. Very strong support from elected officials, one of only two B-1 bases, and the 317th (C-130J tenant unit) is becoming a wing vs its current organizational structure of an airlift group. Any other current or more recent Dyess bros feel free to correct me.

Are you talking about 20+ years TIS or the equivalent of 20 AD years? I haven't run the numbers but it seems like switching to the new system is a better deal (if you max the match) for someone in the Guard who won't have a lot of active duty time by the time they hit 20 years TIS, especially if they're fairly young. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

You shouldn't call your Mom a ladyboy.

I will say this, it’s tough for the FAIPs. They are closer to the students age then the “wife and 2 kids” MWS guy who is at a minimum 5 years older than him. You put them in towns where the talent is tough to find. Then along walks in this LT who starts to feel like you taught her to fly and you were the cool IP and now she wants to go XC with you. Then everyone is drinking and... it isn’t hard to see how two adults end up in this situation. Not saying I agree but it’s reality.

Until you’re the SP and you realize you totally fvcked away the ELP and punch below mins and put your jet fuel laden missile into the on base daycare. People shit talk the abilities of student pilots and blast the current quality of UPT products...why all of the sudden are people up in arms about teaching a one-off skill that doesn’t directly apply in follow-on airframes? Energy management in undergrad training can be taught in ways other than ELPs...why dedicate over 30% of your instruction to something that is unlikely to happen? I’m not talking about reduced EP training, just ELPs for the UPT student.