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Showing content with the highest reputation on 02/15/2021 in all areas
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I’m for SOME sort of national service out of high school. Make part of the deal for free college/trade/tech school require that one must spend 2-3 years in government service. It could be military, Peace Corps, a rebooted CCC that works on projects here at home, working in soup kitchens, whatever. Just something that would give kids right out of high school some direction, pay, life experience, a purpose, and help build some greater national bond, sense of the greater good, and a feeling of ownership in this country of ours. Don’t want to go kinetic or support war; go work restoring national parks, cleaning up beaches, or help rebuild infrastructure. *(as @Royal said, if you’re in power and vote to go to war, your vote only counts if you had military service and/or your children are involved). Go help build schools in poor countries or work on human rights abroad. There are ways to serve the country that aren’t the military, so there should be acceptable options for people of all creeds. All options should be structured similarly to enlisting in the military right out of high school, too: you get all your basic needs met and a few extra bucks in your pocket, but the focus is on service, camaraderie, and maybe getting a bit outside of a comfort zone while interacting with people of different backgrounds. Would having a large government jobs program like this work perfectly? Probably not. But, it’s something that could really benefit the greater country and bring us closer together working toward common goals. As for the arguments of being against the American way by “forcing” service, I see that point. But, on the flip side, I think that very American ethos is taken for granted by a lot of people. Just like kids born into wealth a couple generations down get affluenza and have no respect for the hard work it took to earn, a lot of people don’t understand the work it took to get America to this point and what it takes to keep it here.6 points
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I have faith in the country that enslaved black people, imprisoned japanese people, and wiped out the Native Americans, and a military that played with prisoners at Abu Ghraib and killed civilians at My Lai because I'm capable of recognizing failures without using them disproportionately to characterize the entire system. The perpetual insistence in characterizing "the system" as broken when it is by far a successful and predictable system, with notable deviations, when compared to the rest of the world, is troubling. Just another case of anecdote over statistics.4 points
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I would need a solid 7 figure salary to deal with what the everyday cop has to deal with. Best case you're going home at the end of the day having not been involved in taking someone else's life or seeing one taken in front of you. You know all the worst cases. They can do everything right and they are still going to get grilled for a good chunk of time. Then to top it off you're dealing with the absolute worst society has to offer every day and every shift. Not good for your mental health. We at least get to go "somewhere" and deal with death/violence/you name it and then come home and not be exposed to it for the giant majority of career fields. That being said, that's no excuse for some of the folks caught on camera doing the shit they pull sometimes. I went on a binge for a couple weeks watching first amendment auditors. Some of the cops attitudes and actions exhibited didn't make them suitable for a third world mall cop let alone a cop in the USA. All too often attitude and aggression come into play and they have to be the ones to win. I don't know what the answer is but one thing I know for sure is it's not less funding. Crisis counselors and mental health frontline response instead of armed police to most of these instances where folks are shot is only going to lead to more folks hurt. Cops can't allow their fellow cops fuck up on a regular basis and not do something about it. There has to be more police accountability, not from some politician but from within. I know that's hard but lots of career fields do it without issue.4 points
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One important fact is that the police officer in this case, was in fact indicted, and sat before 12 citizens who judged him in a trial. 12 people who were vetted by both the prosecution and defense for the ability to be objective, saw ALL the evidence in the case, and heard both stories. Then, all 12 unanimously decided this officer was not guilty based on EVERYTHING we knew about the event, and acquitted him. That's a pretty big deal in my opinion.3 points
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Think about what you posted for a second. Assume Castile was a 100% honest, just high, but otherwise legally armed. He told the officer he was armed and where the gun was located. Was the officer reasonable in the way he handled a legally armed citizen? I would contend, no. Smelling weed is not an indication that the dude is a violent junkie. It's weed not PCP. The training is the problem. And I'm well aware of what gets taught.3 points
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That’s the problem, you’re buying a false narrative. Philando Castile was armed, high, and not complying (reached into his pocket). You watch too many movies if you think “fellow officers are intimidated into not testifying.” But hey, be the change you want to see. Go join your local agency’s reserve division and see what it’s all about.3 points
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Dear god, that is the ACTUAL TITLE of the freaking article from National Review...not my commentary.2 points
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He was kneeling on the side of his neck not the windpipe, so half of a carotid choke. I would guess the other side artery was likely restricted to some degree, but not fully since he knelt there for a long fucking time before he became unresponsive. Watch the Tony Timpa video. Died the same way, no knee on neck. The knee is a red herring, the confounding factors (for both cases, in my estimation) is a prone restraint and drug related physiology. So not being able to breath is true, but it had nothing to do with the knee. Qualified immunity is a problem. I'm not convinced just erasing it is a good idea, but it's something to look at that could allow better accountability of department policy within the current system. Having higher standards for police officers in general is warranted. With that comes a need for more money not less however. More training time requires more officers on the pay-role to cover the additional requirement. Want higher caliber people? Be prepared to pay them more. Etc. etc.2 points
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Same here and it really changed my thinking...and my brother is a deputy chief of police! I support police officers but it is truly sad that many, including from federal agencies like the FBI, don't know or care about the Constitution or the oath they took to protect and defend it. If anyone is interested I recommend you check out a few channels on Youtube including Audit the Audit which does a great job of breaking down some of the more egregious cases and reviews them with case law. News Now Houston is the "godfather" of first amendment auditors and does a much better job of remaining calm than some of the others that default to screaming at the police. Honor Your Oath is run by Jeff Gray and he is again another one of the calm ones who never insults the police but he does assert his (our) rights. Finally, The Battousai is run by Phillip Turner, his arrest and subsequent lawsuit Turner Versus Driver resulted in a landmark ruling on police conduct.2 points
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Biden's Pick for Iran Envoy Resurrects Bitter Debate Over Nuclear Deal Again, I did not like Trump but voted for him because of the damage the alternative would do and that is beginning to manifest itself. Our new point man on Iran is Robert Malley. If you don't now who Robert Malley is you might do a little research. A an admittedly smart Rhodes Scholar, he has “a long track record of sympathy for the Iranian regime” and “animus towards Israel.” When the New York Times publishes that his centrist critics describe him as "overly suspicious of American power and overly sympathetic to foreign actors including Iran and the Palestinians who have deep disputes with the West," you should know we have a problem. I saw his handiwork up close and personal years ago and while I applause his willingness to talk to extreme groups like Hezzbolah because it shakes up the gridlock and the status quote, he leans far to the Iranian side of the argument and is willing to make concessions and agreements that we simply cannot verify with Iran. The think tank he just left to take the position just published a paper saying we should immediately return to the Iran Deal, the problem is the Iranians have already begun enrichment of uranium to 20% purity, which is FAR beyond the allowed limit in the 2015 deal and it the lowest acceptable purity for nuclear weapons. Iran ramps up uranium enrichment and seizes tanker as tensions rise with US We are going to force Israel to go it alone and the result will not be pretty.2 points
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Happens a ton. I have several friends who have quit because that specific problem (spineless leadership) was overpowering. They know many who have done the same. The analogy I can think of us relative to us is being in a wing where every debrief is preceded by the wing/cc saying you are a shit pilot and fucked this sortie away royally and will be held accountable via Q3, qual pulling, etc. Now commence tapes that show you actually executed the TTP quite well...doesn’t matter, the whole base already thinks you’re the world’s worst pilot. Tomorrow it happens to one of your bros. Still want to be a pilot in that wing?2 points
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So how's the last couple weeks been going for everyone else? You know, since Thursday?2 points
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https://www.vulture.com/2021/02/gina-carano-fired-from-the-mandalorian-lucasfilm-star-wars.html#:~:text=12%2C 2021-,Gina Carano Fired From The,'Abhorrent' Social-Media Posts&text=The Mandalorian actress and MMA,went viral on social media. I've been following this story in my feed and honestly, the biggest hypocrisy here, is by attempting to silence Gina Carano for her relatively benign post, they actually upheld the core point of her post. While I'm not a fan of the "compare everything to Hitler" cliche, nothing in her post attempts to glorify Hitler, or deflect blame onto Hitler's victims. In fact, she ends the post with a pretty honest question, "explain to me how this is different?" And rather than offering a rational explanation, people decided to silence her. Whats further infuriating, is it somehow became socially acceptable in the last decade for democrats to call Republicans Hitler, but pointing out that this division is what Hitler would have wanted is somehow wrong.2 points
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I honestly wish I had something to reference to you. But I dont. I had special insight because I was married to a cop. I spent a lot of time at her place of work, doing ride-alongs, hanging out with her friends etc... On the risk, its completely incomparable. There are so many moving parts. For example, the fact that LE accepts risk daily for years without reprieve and military only accepts it in short duration for deployments. LE doesn't choose the time and place of their encounters but the US military doctrinally only operates with initiative. LE normally works autonomous as a single unit where as in the military the minimum maneuver unit is 3 in the USMC and 4 in the USA, and operations outside the wire are always supported by a robust network of ISR, air support and logistics. Doctrinely the US military strives for a 3-to-1 force ratio, LE hopes to have 2-to-1. Etc... LE routinely accepts "unknown" risk, doctrinally the US DoD does not do that. The biggest evidence though that discredits the comparison is the very recognition by the US DoD that apprehending a target is a much higher risk than killing them, hence we prefer to drone strike targets if at all possible because its lower risk. As far as obligations: LE officers are not like military. They are civilians first and foremost and they can quit their job any time they want. They do not have robust survivor benefits and they don't fall under any special laws. They therefore can quit at any moment and they can't be ordered to assume a risk with a known detriment, like entering an active shooter situation in a grade school, alone. However, it is completely legal for me to order 20 enlisted to take a hill even if I have good reason to believe that 15 of them will die doing so. If anyone of them refuses that order, they are now deserters and are criminally liable. To compensate that we have robust survivor benefits for their dependents and family. I suggest reading some of the classical ethics behind UOF. Double-effect doctrine is something all officers should be familiar with in the military and it outlines how Western society justifies homicide in any instance. (Whether its a police involved shooting, war, self-defense, whatever have you.)2 points
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Oct 2019 from what I found in a .69 sec google search. My general thought (not directed at Pawnman): Police do need to be held accountable, but they should be helped with better/more consistent training and their leadership needs to have their backs. I don’t mean cover up crimes, but stop throwing them under the bus the second some zero-context video hits the news. Let’s gather the facts before demonizing an officer; stop letting the media get away with ramming unchecked narratives down the public’s throats. To this specific incident: The video sure doesn’t look good, but what’s the context, what happened in the preceding minutes or hours to this situation? Had the guy been getting in the police’s faces, touching them, ignoring commands for a long time? Had he threatened them verbally? Had they given him numerous warnings to disperse/get back? Many of us have been in numerous situations killing people where some fucking dipshit who wasn’t there starts their virtuous armchair quarterbacking - how about said dipshit has the full picture before questioning or accusing those present in the moment. Again, the 10 sec clip doesn’t look great, but I will not judge this officer or any others until the full picture is determined. I wasn’t there, we’re any of you spear chuckers?2 points
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There's 3 or 4 million Americans turning 18 every year. Any plan for a modern draft is going to end with innumerable stories of draftees spending months or years wasted doing absolutely nothing (which to be fair, sounds like the military). If there were actual productive projects for all of these new adults, we'd be paying them to do it already.1 point
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Checkmate VIDEO: Cop plays Beatles' 'Yesterday' while cellphone camera records him, presumably to trigger copyright claim so clip is blocked - TheBlaze1 point
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All for it. Make Americans from all walks of life come together and learn how to work with and exchange ideas with one another. This is how you learn that your fellow Americans are not your enemy and one of the reasons I believe military veterans make more effective lawmakers. I personally wouldn’t care if that service is military or something like peace corps, forest service, etc. Just as long as no one gets coddled and everyone gets the same treatment. That leads to maybe the biggest issue: there couldn’t be ANY loopholes. Everybody gets to do a couple years of service. No exceptions for senators’ kids. No buy outs for rich kids. No special rules based on whatever personal pronouns you prefer. It would have to be absolutely equal treatment for everybody. Maybe offer some special incentives for those willing to do a longer stint along the lines of the GI Bill. We have got to find a way to bring this country closer together and achieve some buy in to what should continue to be the society that is the envy of the rest of the world.1 point
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Like, our MDG asked us to do this to. Then we flat out told them no, it's health privledged information so long as the shot isn't a deployment requirement, to which they agreed. Then they complained, then they staffed a staff sgt to sit a desk and take names and keep all of that shit in house. But never should convenience of the command take priority over the ethics or rights of our personnel.1 point
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So we are going to get personal...two faced and expected? What moral high horse? Where did you see me support those legislative proposals? You look stupid when you make shit up. I didn't and don't support legislation with add-ons meant to push a political agenda. Key policy issues like restrictions on social media should be decided independently, and with a LOT off discussion. On the boarder wall issue, I was under the impression it was part of the infrastructure deal to create jobs, but again since it is a hot button issue I did not support it being in a COVID relief bill. Standing by for an apology..1 point
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Having trouble finding the spot where CH said this. Can you point it out to me?1 point
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So where's that extra money coming from? Not sure people have an appetite for increased taxes, especially if they fear police (government) is corrupt. I would also assume that civil forfeiture laws would also need to be tightened, which puts additional budgetary pressure on police departments. I'd bet police aren't going to get more funding until the police start rebuilding the relationship with their community first, and that solution is very much a local one. Even though it's primarily a local issue, our modern lives also include going to other communities routinely. Things like going to the next town over to shop/attend events/etc. So the issue isn't completely a local one.1 point
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Chauvin didn’t kill Floyd. A lethal dose of Fentanyl, Meth, alcohol, and pre-existing issues from COVID did. Good lord, dude. You just slurp up all the hysterical false narratives, don’t you?1 point
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Yup. I watched the video. Maybe you should too. He was armed, told the officer he was armed, and the officer told him not to reach for it. He did it anyway. He was high and not comprehending instructions. Whether he was reaching for his ID or the weapon is obviously up for debate. You’re right, being high is not a capital offense. But it is DUI, child endangerment and illegally carrying a weapon. Like I said, join your local reserve division. Get the actual training. Find out for yourself instead of throwing rocks from the cheap seats. Here’s the actual dashcam. As usual, your narrative is incorrect:1 point
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Didn't have a whole lot of fellow B-1 folks rushing to his defense. Maybe we just need an aviator union that forces every pilot to side with every other pilot, no matter what they've done wrong.1 point
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Oh and note to all; studying for the GRE blows when you haven’t taken a college math course in 8+ years Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk1 point
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Yeah, all “overseas” bases (including Alaska and Hawaii) come with a controlled tour length, as known as a DEROS. Sq/CCs can extend your tour length as long as your functional agrees. Definitely depends on who’s in charge at the time... some Sq/CCs will give extensions out like candy and others not at all.1 point
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If they're cleared of wrongdoing, why would there be additional consequences? Just because?1 point
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We have quite a few part timers on base that are full time LEO'S. In the last 5 years or so, quite a few of them have left their LEO gigs for full time spots at the base. Almost every one of them says the same thing...you're one edited cell phone clip away from fired or worse. None of them felt like their bosses had their backs if anything hit the media. They all seem to think it's just not worth the risk anymore. I respect the hell out of them, but I don't envy the ones that remain.1 point
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Transparency varies by community and MAJCOM but realize that since WG/CC is typically a 2-year gig, you probably won’t get the tap on the shoulder until relatively close to your command timeline. Susperstars/HPOs are a different animal. I usually see on-time guys get the nod around the time they are selected for DO, and it may consist of 1) your follow on will be XX SQ/CC, 2) we are going to work hard to get you A command but we don’t know what it will be, or 3) we don’t expect to be able to get you a command. Standard AF caveats apply. I was fortunate to have a transparent leadership team and knew my future going in to my DO gig. I’ve also seen plans derailed when Gen ### decides to sponsor someone and basically directs that they get a command in a certain cycle. Someone else is usually displaced. Game plans are constantly evolving.1 point
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In AFSOC, IDE is not required for selection on the EAGLE list but the vast majority of command hires are IDE in-res graduates. Like, 99%. Bode, if command is an itch you have to scratch professionally then I encourage you to attend IDE and make senior raters aware you are interested in command. Command lists are the first cut, but hiring is always a smaller group. As others have mentioned, my experience is decisions have zero transparency and are entirely the luck of who chooses you. Control what you can control: your pedigree and your attitude. Ops command seems more competitive, but perhaps it’s because there are fewer. Good luck!1 point
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Sometimes you don’t have the choice to fight a war. Thinking of WWII in particular. The country could not have fought that war without a draft and complete national buy-in. Now we have trillions of dollars of military resources and an all-volunteer military of about 2 million (including reserves). This means that the government can fiddle around with military engagements without moving the national needle when it comes to lives and treasure lost. This is a problem. Especially since the Executive can wage war without congressional consent. Also, the Congress has abdicated it constitutional authority to wage war. I wish there was a form of national service. I’d like it to be mandatory but that goes against the American ethos so I get it. The solution is to probably maintain a smaller all-volunteer active duty military and use a draft to fight existential threats. But then Russia and China would run the world.1 point
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If the federal government cannot get enough volunteers to sign up to engage in a war...then perhaps that war shouldn’t be fought. I’m against conscription as that doesn’t sound like a lot of personal freedom and liberty to me.1 point
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It's certainly a complicated issue, Clark. The only definitive conclusion I've been able to come up with is that every single congressman and senator that votes for war, war spending, or any form of military intervention should be obligated to send one of their family members into the fray. It's easy to ship someone else's kid to the front line when yours is doing coke at a frat house at an Ivy League school; a little skin in the game would go a long way.1 point
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He was part of the Obama administration and his approach didn't work then...unless you count flying an airplane full of cash to Iran, allowing them to enrich and signing onto a restrictions we could not verify... Great approach, maybe we should gas up another plane full of cash for the Mullahs.1 point
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Uh, are you serious? Any time a mayor decries an officer in her district, that would be the same as the President calling you a disgrace before your command finished their investigation.1 point
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I have been dropping my schedule to zero (I'm LGA based) for about 2 years now. I've been here for three. Like all airlines, the more time you are willing to invest into learning the system and the contract, the better able you are to make it work for you. I can't even count how many guys I've explained my system to, guys who claim they want to be able to drop more of their schedule, and after walking them through it they tell me it sounds like too much work. And it's true, it's certainly more work than just filling out your preferences for the month, and getting a schedule to fly. But as I said, on an okay month I fly 50 hours and get paid for 90. To do that I spend about 20 minutes on my monthly bid, and about 15 minutes a day from the 18th to the 28th working the trading systems to dump my schedule. Then let's say 10 minutes a day during the month keeping an eye out for trips to fit. I'm no mathematician, but I think I'm still ahead doing that. There's a joke here, American Airlines pilots only hate two things. The wAAy things have always been, and change. The airline is never going to make it easy for guys to have an empty schedule. In their mind that's exactly what reserve is for, and the trade-off is that you don't get to pick what you fly. Ultimately I'm glad that more people aren't willing to take the time to learn to do what I do. Most of them are much more senior than me if they were all running the same hustle, I wouldn't be able to. There's no right or wrong answer on commuting, but it is a simple discussion. You don't get to do any of the things I'm talking about as a commuter. The best you can hope for is to drop your schedule to zero at your assigned base, and pick up regular trips at the base you live closer to. That's an improvement, but it's still a grind. Often it seems like the conversation comes down to a military spouse wanting to live by his or her family after a decade or two of following the member around the world. I try to explain that they're making a choice between who they're going to see more, their family or their spouse. I guess if you're only going to do it for 11 or so years before you have to retire maybe the numbers balance out. It's often hard to convey to someone just how different the job is between commuting and not commuting. It's way more than just driving to work. It's more nights at home. Less stress. Exponentially more opportunities for easy money. Flexibility for how you balance work and family life. I was always able to conceptually understand that before I was a commuter, but after even just a year of finishing a trip and immediately transitioning into "how the hell am I going to get home" mode, hoping someone else didn't have the jump seat, hoping that a passenger wouldn't show up, watching my commuter flights get canceled due to weather, it wears on you. But anyways, yes it's possible, and no it's not a pandemic thing.1 point
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You too! It might be worth sending an email to the POC or submission email address to confirm they got it. With them hopefully hiring a primary/alternate to two squadrons I’m looking forward to four of us getting picked up!1 point
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Damn, jinxed myself. Currently writing this from CENTCOM. This is just one guy's opinion, but I don't think there's necessarily a massive difference. We have a lot of copilots right now, but that's just a function of the AFPC sine wave more than anything else. All the AMC squadrons I've talked to recently are in the same boat. We've obviously prioritized getting our copilots the experience they need and they're flying much more than I would have expected just from looking at scheduling's board. In terms of hours, the truth of the matter is that global mobility requirements are currently in a bit of a lull. Since 9/11, the amount of stuff that's needed transportation has always exceeded our capacity to move it, but that seems to have changed in the past few months. I've seen tails sitting idle simply because there aren't any requirements, which would have been unheard of not too long ago. That said, we're only ever one event/heartbeat/tweet/disaster/decision away from the entire paradigm shifting instantly.1 point
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The irony of Biden's killing the Keystone Pipeline in the name of "Climate Change"....Killing the pipeline will actually INCREASE carbon emissions. To offset the amount of oil lost by cancelling the pipeline the U.S. will have to add 646 Train tankers of oil per day and it will consume 1.4 Million gallons of fuel (usually diesel), everyday to move that fuel. That is the equivalent of adding the emissions of 490,000 cars to our output. Well done Never Trumper Climate Savers.1 point
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It’s a better angle for taking tiktoks with the other bombers in the background.1 point
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In the AF there is a culture of pretending a SGT of any sorts is superior to an officer under the rank of O-6, and if they are an E-8/9 then maybe even more authority than an O-6. It’s perpetuated across career fields and weak officers let it happen. They even support it by telling young officers they need to shut up and listen to the Sgts. I’m sure you have already noticed, that compared to the Navy and USMC, authority is non existent in the Air Force below the wing commander level. A piece of paper stamped by an A1C holds more merit than the command authority granted to most “commanders.” The need for a squadron commander to ask “mother may I” through the group and wing CC, and in some cases to a star (like covid ETPs), is absurd.1 point
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Sorry guys but this isn't really up for debate. Trump will go down as one of if not the worst president in US history. The longer you deny that or make mealy-mouthed statements about how his SC picks were pretty good or how he didn't actively start a new war, the longer you will look like an ignorant fool. Send me your address and I'll ship you 15 more punisher/Molon labe stickers for the back window of your sweet truck. The best parts of trumps presidency were when he stuck perfectly to a script or when he did absolutely nothing. Anything he actively involved himself in went to shit almost immediately.. including but not limited to: the border wall, immigration in general, covid, saudis murdering a journalist, not being a sexual predator and hanging out with them, the election, Iran, literally anything having to do with the climate, literally anything having to do with race, his own family business, nepotism, any public speaking event ever, his own taxes, public health guidance, respecting people in the military, being tethered to reality etc.. etc.. etc... He got three Supreme Court picks.. wow amazing. Now tell me, is that more luck and timing and having a Congress that green-lit them for you or is that just trumps brilliance? I bet it was the former because his own SC picks didn't seem to think he was too brilliant when he brought them nonsensical election fraud allegations. I would never argue with you over the fact that most politicians are phony and will lie to get ahead. But there's only one politician in my life and in my parents life and in my grandparents life who denied fair election results right up until the moment his followers invaded the capitol, killed people, and endangered our elected officials who were actively working to certify that election. It literally took the entire world standing still, looking at America, and wondering, "are they about to implode in a civil war" for this damaged egomaniac to back down. I'm 1000000% with @Homestar on this one. Trump was bad on a different level. If one good thing came out of his presidency, it's that his treasonous antics separated the principled conservatives from the droves of bandwagoning celeb-obsessed trash, and maybe that will allow a healthier conservative movement to happen in the future.1 point
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RF-4C 1. Ops tempo: Outstanding. Best kept secret. Basically a flying club. As a 1Lt it's your airplane with great responsibility; "All we ask is bring it back in one piece." Flying is mostly low level single ship to where ever YOU and your WSO decide to go that day. Not flying, review your film from previous day, do a tour in the RSU, perhaps a little studying in the vault, shelf check at the BX. TDY's and deployments minimal and considered a good deal. AAR training every couple of months. Night AAR is always scheduled with a full moon. If stationed in Germany always save a little fuel for the fur ball with whomever is trolling along the Rhine. 2. LIfestyle/family: Could not be better. Home every day by 5. No working weekends. If stationed in Germany most have a rental Swiss chalet for the winter skiing months. 3. Community morale: Excellent. Surprising amount of fellow pilots UPT DG's. Some turned down fighters to fly Recce. Everyone works and pulls together. 4. Advancement & Future of Airframe: Terrible, once Recce always Recce according to MPC although I managed a 4 yr OA-37 assignment to DM. (another flying club). NO future dedicated manned Recce airframes. 5. Preferred PCS locations: Zweibrucken, Alconbury, Bergstrom. Oh crap, just got up from a nap. Dreaming it was 1977 and not 2017! Sorry guys, you missed a great time in the AF. 10 years AD then off to a legacy airline.1 point