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One of the main barriers I see when people debate airlift fires is everyone hears a few snippets of narrative and fills in all the rest with their preconceived notions of how it’s going to work (or not work). Understandably, most of those preconceived notions are based on their individual backgrounds, but “traditional” isn’t how this is supposed to play out. If C-17s were going to employ JASSMs for targets sets the way a B-1 or Strike Eagle does it, sure, that’s not going to work great. This is not a one-for-one swap for CAF assets or to go after target sets the CAF will always be best suited for. There’s no intent for replacement here. For the CAF dudes who don’t understand what’s involved in airdrop execution, airdrop really isn’t all that different from going to a LAR. Yes, MAF guys know how to make a ToT and release on parameters for a given thing. When MAF airdrop guys are saying there isn’t a lot of extra training involved, that’s what they mean. And in this regard, they are right. This system is designed for them to operate like they are dropping a normal heavy equipment platform. For the front-end crew purposes, it should be fairly transparent. The platform then does the extra work once released. Yes, pre-mission planning JASSM and supporting JASSM systems in-flight are separate topics with separate solution sets. That’s not what people are talking about when they say there isn’t a lot of extra training. I’d prefer to say away from that discussion in this forum. This isn’t also just about JASSM itself. If this works for JASSM, this will probably work for other things that we have now, or we are getting in the future. Many of those are compelling when you can employ en masse. Also, not everything goes boom. Finally, what we have today isn’t the same stuff we’re stuck with 10-15 years from now. You needed a fabric covered plane with a bullet deflector on the prop before you could get interrupter gear to fire between the prop, then on to all-metal .50 cal firing beasts. The first deployed capability doesn’t mean that’s where development ends. But you’ve got to start somewhere. There’s some interesting second and third order effects: Red knows where we are going to operate our fighters and bombers. Now, look at the potential operating locations of austere capable airlift. CAF dudes, do you want all of Red’s hate directed at you, or would you rather Red having to trying and figure out who else is going to give them problems? How many of our Allies and Partners have a robust bomber force, able to operate at range without AR and with significant payload capacity? Zero. Ok, now how many of them have airdrop capable airlift? Probably dozens. Again, this isn’t just about JASSM. If you can throw a JASSM, you can throw something else. That something might not have to be US designed/built either. Our friends aren’t going to buying bombers or rapidly expanding their fighter force any time soon. Do you want access to effects or do you not? It’s a lot cheaper/faster to build a new type of munition than a new platform. New munitions unlock capabilities that weren’t previously available to a given platform. For some munitions out there, does it REALLY matter what platform you use if you’re going after a bridge or building? I know, people will come back with “it depends…” Point being, not every target requires the systems in a CAF asset to kill/degrade that thing. I’d argue if you’re sending the CAF after those, you’re squandering valuable assets when you have other options. We’re not able to have the billons needed to buy and sustain a temporary surge fleet of traditional munitions slingers. Even if we did, I’m sure Red wants us to keep on doing what we’re good at today. They have been spending the last few decades learning how we operate and I think they would prefer us doing “more of the same.”

Yeah it is - do you know how many bombers I want to have available to shoot JASSM vs. how many there are actually available? I don’t see an issue with trying to expand the ability to mass stand off muns. Doesn’t mean it has to be the primary plan, but it’d be nice to have the capability in a scenario where you want as many weapons flying down range as possible. Also, not saying this should be the #1 priority.

Put me down for 4 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Been a year since we lost Kage. I didn't chime in last June due to being directly involved in the search operations and felt it wasn't right to talk about it then. That said, it was a long day for all involved with some really terrible weather down low. My aircrew and STS PJs performed admirably and we had some great support from some UK standby support vessels from the oil industry. Unlike the AIB mentioned, American aircrews found him, not the Royal Navy (they were not even there, so not a dig on them). I am glad we were able to help give closure to his wife, family, and squadron mates. To Kage, Nickle on the grass.

What economic recovery?

In that case, the current economic recovery is due to Trump, right?

Tire wars make for more failures. Ref 2005 USGP. I was there, it sucked. Michelin tires were faster all year, then they dialed it up one notch too many and dudes almost died. If people are unhappy with Pirelli, get a new sole-source vendor, but don’t make tire companies compete to make the lightest, softest tire. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_States_Grand_Prix Edit: Also don’t take my word for it, every major racing series has a sole tire supplier for safety reasons. Tire wars cause failures, on top of it no one wants to see a driver handicapped for multiple seasons because his team can’t get the tires to work right. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_wars

Ok I’m on board now. JASSM shooters that can launch pre-planned salvos from a 3k’ dirt runway.

To get everyone back on the same page, I don’t think he is saying AMC guys couldn’t do it, just that it’s more than taking an airdrop qual’d crew and saying airdrop this here. You’d probably need some additional training. I think the idea has merit, but it definitely needs a hard look to see if it’s actually feasible for lots of different reasons, many of them already stated. But if I can throw more shit down range at the right time to get an intended effect, why wouldn’t I at least look into it?

Call me crazy but war with a peer adversary will have a lot more immovable targets than a bunch of nomads living in huts on a mountainside. JASSM isn’t the #1 option but I think it’s a good option to have.

Good thing tens of thousands of pounds of airdrop loads don’t require any planning either. Just press the green light and the load does the rest.

Haha, I like the joke, and I get it, but this concept can be applied to future SOMs. So, still worth looking into.

JASSM is already the weapon of the last war because of how long the TOF is versus how quickly threats move…on a warm launched platform that can retarget in flight. Cold launched from a cargo a/c? Might as well throw $100M on a burn pit fire.

I never said Trump admin doesn't get credit for vaccine rollout, Afghan policy, and stimulus bill. I don't see what's wrong with saying it's a plus the current admin is continuing to accomplish these and also get credit for what they've done so far. Why? I wasn't and can elaborate if you want to actually discuss without insulting and going off on a tangent about the media. Definitely not. When did I say that? Not sure why many of you here are jittery to attack an argument I'm not making because I'm not in your ideological tribe. Probably easier to admit Presidents don't have the power to affect the economy that much (and shouldn't), but sure if you want to make that argument and be consistent.

I’m no expert but I’d bet America has surpassed over 300 million shits per day

As with everything else, the calculus is based on “is this worth the money and time we’re spending on it?” In this case, it’s costing $25m, which is of course being paid directly to LM. Are there bigger problems that could be solved with this money? I bet any PEM would say absolutely.

I’m well aware of how JASSM works and is employed. Are you implying AMC guys can’t hit a release point on time at a specified altitude and heading? I support outside the container thinking - this is worth pursuing.

Hilarious, I truly hope you were kidding! The biggest indicator the Biden administration isn't doing well is the recent increase in media reporting going after Trump again. It's the Democrat's "Trump" card when things are going to shit, go after the orange man with the nasty Tweets!

So...things that Trump did, but Biden gets credit for? Aside from the Paris Accords, I suppose.

Wait, Biden gets credit for the vaccine rollout that he literally walked into? Remember when he set a goal of 1 million shits per day that had already been met? Trump did a lot of things wrong, but the vaccine rollout was not one of them.

The management of the border crisis starts to make a lot more sense when you realize it’s a deliberate strategy and not actually incompetence. Its a long game play of trying to import as many future Democrat voters into the country as possible; whether through an amnesty/citizenship future bill or at the very least through the birth of children of those who crossed illegally Honestly it proves the subtle racism of the democrats that they expect that anyone with dark skin should automatically vote for them. Although I guess that’s not a surprising development when the president already said “You ain’t black” if you don’t vote for him. That line has to be one of the most openly racist things a president has said in recent history. But it didn’t come in the form of a mean tweet so I guess it’s okay? Its an absolute clown show running this country right now.

They'd still figure out a way to make it painful or otherwise fuck it up...

This is the problem set, but the sad part is that it already happens on occasion these days in the C-130 world. I watched a single Det run by a detco, a sup, a duty load, and an arms troop run airlift for four months at a time supporting multiple users at multiple bases without so much as a single complaint. Heck, I think their MX section was all of 20 people total. All they needed was reliable periodic comms with the users. No-one hears about it because they got the job done. But C-17s are involved so clearly it's not really happening or worthy of acknowledging. Granted that's on a small scale, but ACE, distributed ops, or whatever else you want to call it can work great if we identify the mission, the users, and let the tactical leaders on the line sort out the best way to meet user requirements. The most important step is making sure TACC/AMD provides support (not C2) and is not involved in daily operations. The second is localizing the operation and providing a clear scope, and objectives.

Just like the economy of 16-19 was something that Obama did, but Trump gets credit for? Aside from the failed tariffs, I suppose.