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You make a great point about the limitations of our knowledge. Humility is key. Foundational to one's world view is the question how the government should proceed in a low-information scenario. I default towards individual freedom, a lot of people don't, or they overstate the certainty of their position to seize moral authority they really shouldn't. FWIW, Im vaccinated, but I don't support making it mandatory right now.

For what it's worth, I trust the vaccine because of the pharmaceutical companies, not in spite of them. Conservatives (including myself) love to tout how the free market in America fosters more medical innovation than anywhere else on the planet. And I really believe that is the case. Most drugs are developed here. If you need world class surgery of pretty much any kind, you come here. The system isn't perfect but on the innovation front, we solve the shit out of medical problems. And the covid pandemic is the perfect example of that. 9 months ago the US was the covid dumpster fire of the entire world, and now because of these vaccines we are more open, back to normal, and with lower case loads than almost anywhere else. That's an amazing achievement and it has absolutely nothing to do with the government. It has to do with the awesomely smart people who figured this shit out and who would have never signed off on it if the benefits didn't outweigh the risks. It also has to do with the fact that the free market incentivized these companies to make a vaccine that would actually work. They knew they'd have to compete with other vaccine brands and they also knew the mother of all global class action lawsuits would be waiting for them if they porked it.

Multiple thoughts on this topic. I'll go objective to subjective. Financially: the 'bonus' is still 25,000 to 35,000 dollars. It was introduced in the 1990s, yet has not substantially changed since then. in 2015 when I took mine (25,000 for 5 years), it should have been at least 37,000 to account for inflation alone. I didn't do my homework. I recommend others do theirs before deciding. By comparison, if you separate at 12 years of service and join an airline, a part 135 operator (think flying twin otters or -8's in hot places), a cargo carrier, or even a cargo carrier feeder to a major cargo carrier, you will make more money in the following 8 years than you would have in the Air Force. Moreover, the Air Force continues to insult their pilots with the need for a bonus and the option to take it...and sometimes no bonus at all...while GIVING doctors, surgeons, and dentists professional pay that exceeds the aviation bonus while not requiring a "take"...in the AIR FORCE. Not the dental force, or the medical force, the Air Force. This year, as a reservist pilot, I will not get an aviation bonus because it was not offered to pilots in my air frame at my base, because clearly the air force is good on pilots...while medical professionals get an automatic bump to account for the money they aren't making on the outside. Objectively the USAF demonstrates that it does not value it's pilots and is unwilling to truly push for retention improvements. The fellas at RAND have routinely updated their data that shows retaining a USAF pilot at 12-15 years for another 3 years using a $100,000 per year bonus is more cost effective than producing new pilots. Just like big blue, we'll completely ignore the safety improvements of retaining experienced pilots in one of the most complicated and dangerous corners of the aviation world. No, the USAF simply continues to accept the shackles that congress places on it regarding the restricted pilot bonus instead of pushing HARD for a professional pay similar to the medical career fields. That lack of effort shows me all I need to see. However that financial analysis ignores the quality of life items, right? Unfortunately a QoL analysis only puts more nails in the coffin. For example, pilots are likely to marry spouses in a like-status, like-education-level, and like-earning potential bracket. In short, we choose to partner within our peer group. Yet the Air Force completely ignores this fact and continues to move us every three years, thereby negating our life partners the opportunity to professionally put down roots and create a career, thereby stifling their earning potential. Yes, the air force has claimed new programs to improve this problem by letting pilot homestead, but they are largely lip service programs that have shown to kill career progression. Take a look at how well the career pilot program went...for the four individuals that got accepted. Or perhaps AFPAK HANDS, which I watched get used as a "force shaping tool" to force 8 senior MAF MWS IPs decide to separate instead of taking that as their next assignment (circa 2016). That trend has not changed. The senior leaders of the USAF refuse to force the middle leadership to abide by the simple rules of organizational excellence: Train and equip and prepare your people so well that they could leave and be hired by any other organization immediately, and treat them in such a manner that they don't want to. My own story included an advisory that my last three years before hitting 20 would include a PCS (I'd been in my API-6 'flying' non-flying desk job for 2 years) and a 1 year deployment...because 2.5 years in the desert and 4.5 years total gone from home in 17 years wasn't enough. When I asked for special consideration as the job I was filling is difficult to fill, I was flatly told no. So I voted with my feet. Then the USAF promoted me 3 months before my separation date...and I still separated (promotion carries no ADSC). But let's shift gears and assume I decided to apply to be commander a staffer or whatever career progression track big blue would advise me to take. The peek behind that curtain reveals nothing but another curtain. I've been close personal friends with enough commanders to have learned that becoming a commander, an aide de camp, or attaining some other advancement position does not actually allow you access to change, fix, or improve the system as we all secretly hope to do if given that opportunity. Instead, you are rewarded with a PCS, school, or lateral move every 1-2 years. Moreover, you get the exposure to discover that the senior GS and SES community as well as the bad O-7s (there are good ones, but the bad ones abuse their influence and tend to poison the well far beyond the abilities of the good ones to fix) and their staff sycophants continue to perpetuate the self-promoting trend of the USAF. That leaves the hard working 'good guy' O-6s and O-7s swimming very much upstream if they want to institute sincere and good changes. I know several of these excellent men and women, and I pray their influence changes the USAF. I realized that fighting that battle was not in my blood, so I couldn't continue on that road. What's that have to do with the bonus? In short, those who were going to stay would have done so anyways. Those taking it for the money factor only may not have done their homework to realize they could make much more elsewhere. So it's not really a retention bonus, it's a 'thanks for staying, we want to lock you in and take away your power to say "no" pay'. Hence I say, unless you know you and your family want to stay at the whim of the you-are-nothing-but-a-number AFPC assignment process until the end of whatever commitment you are 'offered', don't take the bonus.

They sit at RAND. Big Blue and Congress decided not to listen. https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2415.html

Wait, so is pawnman actually a nav (WSO, ABM, whatever)? That would put soooooo much of the recent posts here into perspective.

But he’s not talking about withholding medical care, he’s talking about taking from him personally against his free will, to help the person who made a poor choice. In this analogy, dumbass wrecks his bike wearing zero PPE while going 69 mph, so Prozac is pulled out of work to donate an asscheek of skin to graft onto dumbass’ fucked up body. Yeah hyperbole, but so is this entire analogy.

Good questions, I’ll have to chew on them. But crushing my freedom to maybe help an obese person have a slight edge isn’t moral or fair. Forcing me to comply with restrictions for the benefit of another who placed themselves at risk is antithetical to freedom and opposite my values.

One thing to point out is most people I've talked to aren't worried about dieing from the vaccine. They are concerned with more subtle side effects like unexplained pre-diabetes in 20 years despite a healthy lifestyle, or reproductive difficulties that increase frustrations with getting pregnant. In either of these cases the right of the individual trump's the public health concerns for right to life because both of those situations are life altering to the quality of a person's life.

They probably saw your AFRC patch and knew saying anything would be a lost cause.

Because being a doc is the same really regardless of who you’re working for. military flying is different. Not a lot of places you can fly a fighter. Or do the things they do with fatties (?). airline flying is boring as shit. It should not be the pinnacle of your flying career.

The irony of the pro pay is pilots could go work for a major and make roughly the same as an MD (but without the 100s K in debt and 24 hr shifts in ERs). So how do they justify pro pay for docs, and not for pilots? Nonsensical.

Delta just changed their addendum in airline apps. So if you’ve got an app soaking…be sure to reaccomplish that section.

Of those 600,000, weren't 80-90% obese? Let's not act like the virus targeted everyone equally - And yes I am completely skeptical of that number of 600,000. Did that many people die? Yeah probably, but did that many people actually die from covid? I have doubts. Maybe it is "risky" living an unhealthy life every single day of one's life? Maybe to save fat people we just simply don't let them order certain foods and drinks at restaurants and grocery stores, I mean its for the betterment of everyone - Right? Many people seems willing to force me not to have a choice... How many people does obesity kill every year? Probably more than 600,000 - Why isn't there a war on obesity? Or what if the increasingly likely probability that it was released from China, and covered up, caused a majority of those deaths? What then?

That’s the equivalent of being “made” in a Mob family. Untouchable.

I’m not a reservist...AD, although I’m post 20, no bonus with the ability to call it quits anytime I like with 4 months notice and I let that be known. Do you want to allow me to wear the patches I want or do you want to lose a 4,000 hr 11F? I’m usually left alone. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

We’ll never be able to afford to mass enough pilots on AD for a just-in-case peer fight. Or jets, for that matter. Entire AF force structure should be inverted, with a smaller amount of highly-bonused AD guys and a larger amount of guard/reserve ready to spin up when needed. Modern jets and pilots can’t be cranked out at WW2 speeds, so I can’t see how having a larger reserve force isn’t the best way. It keeps experience around, gets us out of the constant upgrade cycle, saves jet hours, and lets pilots go out and make money for the economy rather than being a personnel drain. Not to mention the great deterrent of having a huge combat force on standby, chomping at the bit for some action. It’ll take an act of Congress, but so what.

Serious question: is there a labor economist who works for the Air Force on these things? “How much do we pay to get X result” given a set of circumstances, is a pretty mature field of study. Where do they sit? Why don’t we hear from them?

Okay that's something.. But is that ever going to happen in the real world? What other medications do you know of where the manufacturer/government preemptively accept full financial liability for any/all future side effects? In this hypothetical scenario, how would you even go about proving the vaccine is causal in a medical problem you have 10 or 20 years down the road? And which side effects should be covered? Also are we going to apply this rule to other medications? I'm sure in a country of 300 million I can find five people who died after taking Advil. I'm asking these things because if the line in the sand we're drawing is unrealistic, maybe we need to come up with a better one. For me the calculus is very simple. We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine or covid so there's no point trying to compare two unknown variables. What we do know is the short/medium term effects of both, and even for young healthy people a bad vaccine reaction is orders of magnitude less likely than dying from covid 19.

One difference could be that doctors take the financial risk up front while military pilots don't, do that puts them in a better negotiating position. Doctors can essentially lateral over into the military, and then back over to civilian practice. A pilot can't really do that (though it'll be interesting to see what becomes of the UPT pipeline for heavies bringing in commercial pilots on reduced training timelines). Just for reference, a doctor takes on around $400k in debt to graduate medical school, after which there are multiple points over the 3-6 years after graduation they can wash out and be stuck with the debt. Meanwhile, a military pilot, particularly a fighter pilot, receives a significant investment from the employer (AF) for training, for which the price paid is time. My bet is the AF knows that most pilots in the "rage quit AD to go to the airlines" will also try to go guard or reserve to temper the variability of the airline business, so the AF doesn't really lose the talent, just keeps it for much cheaper (both from a bonus standpoint and from straight pay/benefits) Also, what would pro pay be based on? Pay at the big 5? All major airlines? 121 airlines? All that being said, dropping the "normal" bonus from $35k back down to $25k unless you take a stupid long commitment (or just not offering a bonus like to 11R) is a slap to the face. The other issue is highlighted in the promotion thread, the AF only knows how to manage by year groups, and there's no technical career track (ie fly only track). Pro pay makes a lot of sense if fly only guys capped out at captain, and got paid extra to retain their experience, which is essentially what we do for doctors.

Is that why fighters have the best manning? Oh, wait...

They already said the standard. The data has to be strong enough that either the federal government or the manufacturer will accept liability for any short term OR long term side effects of the vaccine. As soon as Phizer says it will pickup payouts to young women that may have fertility issues in 10 years, or young men who may have an increased risk of heart disease in 20 years, I think you'll have a whole bunch of people on board. As for me, I got the vaccine, mainly because I'm in Europe and I wanted the personal liberty to travel, eat at restaurants, etc... But I totally understand the arguments against getting it.

As interesting as this conversation is.. I am neither a fighter pilot nor a nav and I'm curious at what point the quality and quantity of data supporting the efficacy/safety of the covid vaccines could convince you guys to get it. Is there a benchmark you are looking for it to surpass? A certain number of years without widespread major side effects? A specific number of long term studies that prove its safety? A certain entity whose data you would trust? Would the emergence of a more dangerous covid variant change your calculus? I'm just wondering, because without a logical, measurable benchmark to evaluate this on it's essentially the same trash argument as the granola munching anti-vax mom crowd... I'm seeing a lot of similarities "I don't trust anyone, the science was rushed/flawed, the data is doctored" etc.. So what data, when, how much, and from whom do you want for it to be good enough?

I think anybody with a marketing degree would tell you it would be devastating to have some new kid win in Hammies car so easy. If he can do it, does that mean ANYONE can, so long as they are driving the #1 Merc? No bueno. We'll never know for sure tho unfortunately. I can't wait for cost caps, and I hope alphatauri end up being nasty good. I also think to fix F1 the right way you need to make it so that if a team ends up with its two cars next to each other, they can race each other at the end without worrying about stupid team points/crashing out. What if you cumulatively scored each cars position for each lap of the race, and that's how points were awarded? Or award like 80 percent of team points based on car position at the 5 laps to go mark, than let them duke it out for the last 20 percent? Basically make the actual finishing position of each car less relevant to "team points" so that these guys can mix it up properly. If Hamilton and Bottas are P1/P2, as a fan come end of race I absolutely want to see them in a fight to the death to win without worrying about the stupid team points. If it means two wrecked cars, so be it. As for the Canadiens...rough day lol.

The Nav joke was bc Pawman made the comment to something like “here’s a pilot who thinks they know more than medical professionals”. And I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to make a Nav joke when he gave me the opportunity. As for you being a fighter pilot, that’s cool I guess, but no, it doesn’t matter to me. But thanks for your service.

Seems like the joking about Navs is pretty good hearted here. And what root of which argument is anyone not answering? So far pawnman is just slinging and not answering questions. Thanks for your virtue signaling negatory. But it doesn’t really matter if you are a fighter pilot or not. But, that’s cool man. Good for you.

Dude, going balls deep into the positives and negatives of the vaccine is pissing in the wind at this point. If you eliminate politics and conspiracy theories alone, 69% of the arguments vanish. Pawnman deserves some shade here. His recent comments reek of careerism and puffing out his chest (dropping articles on people, “the joke’s on you I made APZ”). I’ve met careerists before that are good people, they simply value rank highly while being good peeps. Thing is, they’re rare. These recent exchanges haven’t been a good look for him.

interview invites have gone out

People with the means to will just say F the city and move out to red states and more rural areas in general. Which is what we're already seeing happen. That's the one good thing to come out of this pandemic--it showed everyone how shitty the liberal policies that dominate our cities are. The only draws cities ever had in the first place were employment opportunities and amenities like nice bars/restaurants/shopping etc... but the Democrats just proved they'll shut that down if they feel like it. And then all you have left is an expensive, crowded, crime-riddled shithole.

It sure is interesting listening to politicians in DC talk about the increase in violent crime going on across the country. Biden’s tired and confused presser on the issue was really hard to watch. We are going after rogue gun dealers…. I had no idea that the ATF or FBI had never gone after rogue gun dealers before. It certainly isn’t hard to understand or to predict this if you’re willing to be honest about it. When Democrat politicians create a culture of crime via a defund the police movement, demonize law enforcement officers, do away with cash bail, incentivize single parenthood, decline to prosecute criminals, create martyrs/heroes out of life long violent thugs, etc you are going to see a sharp increase in crime. And innocent people will suffer. And our country will continue to fall apart. I can’t imagine pairing the message and behavior of Democrat politicians with policies that would make it harder for law abiding citizens to protect themselves. Scary stuff.

Mansplain: you see, Gertrude, there are some carriers that are so “ate up” that they cannot tolerate the slightest of what may appear, on the surface, to be an error. They therefore extend, on occasion, a modicum of grace to the hapless applicant in the form of what may be colloquially referred to in the lower lexicon as a fix it. You’re welcome.

Equity as used by the left is racism.

Scary stuff when you really read between the lines. I continue to stand by the fact that the real extremism threat to this country is far left extremism packaged behind nice words like diversity, inclusion, and my absolute favorite: EQUITY. Anyone who believes in a free society should get shivers down their spine when they hear politicians, the military, private companies, etc... using the word equity.

I’m an 11M. I applied for a ADSC waiver to retire (prior-E)-Denied. Non-select for O-5, tasked with 6-month COVID deployment handing out vaccination information sheets.

As I said, I hope to never have to serve with you. By the way, when are commanders getting relieved of duty for selective enforcement of the policy?—exactly. Oh and don’t forget, you said if you were a commander that you would hunt down those who weren’t wearing a mask and didn’t have the vaccine (ie nothing about the member lying)…and somehow this now applies to “lying to my face”. What a joke…

Nah, it just shows the hypocrisy of you and others. You pick and choose info/advice from medical professionals and then get mad when others do the same. Hypocrisy at its finest.

So we’re ok with the argument that an obese person’s life is worth less than a healthy person’s now? How much less? Is an obese person worth 1/2 a healthy person in our society? 3/4? What is the value you would place on an obese person’s life? Honest question. Not saying encouraging healthy living shouldn’t be a goal in our society. I’m 100% on board with ending the obesity epidemic in our country. But writing someone off ‘cause they’re fat? Seems pretty jaded, cold and inhumane.