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This shit has to be spelled out? Ok then: Defense contractor profiteering aka perennial war was always the feature, not the bug. This was another win for our Neoliberal trans-national corporate masters and their political appointees (aka our civilian bosses), in so far as they were able to keep the grift going this long. Not to fear, we're pivoting our aimless ordnance expenditure to Somalia, Syria and whatever other s-hole we can cajole our way into. I'm sure we'll come up with another empire adventure (mark of declining Empires btw) soon enough. I'm sorry some of you keep having to go through the indignity of losing your religion publicly about whatever adult bedtime stories your so-called combatant commanders served you, but in my entire service I've never had any illusions about what my indentured servitude is ultimately used for. The AVF can be Faustian that way (take it up with Congress if you don't like it). Everything from our contracting/capitalization processes, congressional district meddling,/pork-barreling, REMF deployment overhead costs (the Europeans aren't innocent either, as economic beneficiaries of that grift), to the reason for the garrison locations my family ate for the first 12 years of my contract in (tactical priorities my @ss). All of it has the MIC motive as the central feature. Too reductionist for your taste? Copy, keep believing in your adult bedtime stories then, makes no difference in the end. That's why it incenses me that when adventures go sideways it's always us "POS warmongering green suiters" taking the pot shots about being educated fools for partaking in the lie, while these f%cking civilian employees (most living stateside working for weapons manufactures and coming home to their upper middle class lives) who got fat for 2 decades from the safety of their manicured suburbs are never admonished for their part in this grift, while our cohort gets shot up all to hell (Capt Nylander, RIP brother). And before I get mistaken for some conscientious objector/pacifist, I'm extremely hawkish on the CCP. If the US does not intervene in an attempted military annexation of Taiwan, ding dong the witch is dead and so is the era of American Empire. Taiwan will be our Suez Canal moment (symbolic British Empire end by historical consensus). We got 99 problems as an Empire, but life under CCP as the global hegemon doesn't inspire me wrt my progeny's life and material conditions. Digressing on that for the sake of the topic at hand. Everybody stay safe and get home soon. ETA: That picture of the Chinook is very apropos. 100% fair representation. Vietnam touched my family as well, so the symbolism is not lost on me.

All the shoe clerks running around ensuring we had our reflective belts on and our PT T-shirts tucked in, all the BS deployments in-theater for the sake of being deployed, all the GO number 1 rules rigidly enforced, and for what! I hope there is a lot of soul searching in our senior leadership, but I doubt it will ever happen.

To think that the "country" of Afghanistan, made up of some 50 dialects and numerous tribes and villages, would somehow embrace twenty-first century democratic governance...is a bit flawed. Our military did just about everything asked of it at the tactical and operational levels...from counterterrorism, intel, local stability ops, close air support, airlift, provincial reconstruction, logistics, etc. The broader strategy was a farce. We ousted al Qaeda and crippled the Taliban in short order. It took 10 years, but we got bin Laden (in Pakistan, go figure). But we evolved and expanded objectives foolishly. Rebuilding Afg, installing democratic governance, and the like. What we should have realized is that Afghanistan is not so much of a country, but a place simply bounded by other sovereign borders. Its mostly tribes, living in an ancient, almost savage like subsistence. Vulnerable to takeover by extremists like the Taliban, but incapable of modern governance, foreign to human rights and civil liberties. Its painful to think of the handful of decent people there who, for a fleeting moment grasped some form of western ideal. The young women and children who saw a glimmer of hope in that they might be treated as equals, and have some form of opportunity without violent oppression. All if this overshadowed by an arcane savagery, cowardice, or ambivalence in the face of the Taliban. While I feel sorrow for some, I am nearly indifferent to the many who are indifferent themselves. Beyond political struggle, economic development, and social progress is one immovable hegemon: culture. Their culture, to the extent it can be defined...sucks. If you were to find a bum on the side of the road and place him into Harvard Medical School, what would happen? To think a western coalition, in a matter of two decades would transform Afghanistan into a modern democracy is a fools errand. The world is a strange place.

“Reports on Sunday morning said the Taliban overran the city, the capital of Nangarhar province, without a shot being fired.” Yeah I feel for the good people there, but not even one skirmish before handing over J-Bad? These people really have no concept of dying on your feet is better than living on your knees. They have no backbone. Nobody deserves the Taliban, but for fuck’s sake, they’ve pretty much earned it at this point.

Some interesting takes on this forum. I’ll pitch in to the fight, not that what I think matters one bit. Most of you are younger than me, most of you have known nothing but a career of war, many of you are sick of the endless deployments and time away from your family. I get that, but I hope as military professionals your optic is not solely at the tactical level and how it impacts just you. As an O-6 I was often asked to speak at Weapons School and other leadership forums. I used to ask the audience how long they had been serving and the duration of this conflict came home when a "kid" in the audience told me he was in second grade when 9/11 happened. The past almost 20 years in Afghanistan will be dissected for centuries to come. Historians will write papers on every detail from the initial invasion to the chaos as we ran away in the middle of the night. For some of you (and for me), there will be deep feelings about what has happened and the way it went down. In reflection there are numerous questions to ask; Should be have been in Afghanistan in the first place, was our strategy correct, what did we do right, what did we do wrong, why did we leave the way we did. There will be endless debate on each point, there will be no right or wrong answers. As I watch these events, I’ve tried to look back on the last 20 years remembering the context of the situation at the time decisions were made rather than be jaundice by knowing the outcome. The first question is should we have been there. Put aside the patriot surge of emotions and quest for vengeance after 9/11, there was a logical reason to go into Afghanistan. Horrible people set up terror camps to training in Afghanistan and attack us at home. Perhaps we could have sat back and tried to bomb them into oblivion, but given the context of the day that wasn’t going to happen. The vast majority of this country wanted to invade Afghanistan...not because of fake or not fake WMD but because that was where the bad guys who attacked us were...(yes there is much that is still being covered up about the part the Saudis played). Was our strategy correct? I believe in American Excellence. As messed up as we are at times we still serve as a shining beacon for the rest of the world. That being said, not everyone wants democracy and we can’t seem to accept them some people don’t want to do the hard world that it takes to be free and live a life of self-determination. We put PRTs all over the place and tried to build schools and wells, but we rotated people in and out and changed our strategy with each new administration and each new commander. We build outposts of presence in places like the Korengal Valley, begging the Taliban to come fight then tore it down and moved away like it never mattered we were there. We build them most advanced CAS stack in the world and became highly efficient at killing bad guy in close proximity to friendly forces. We built an RPA enterprise that existed to hunt and kill bad people. We patrolled villages and met with elders to assure them we were there to help and for the duration. We did all of these things and so much more and yet we still lost. Should we have left, in my opinion no. I am sure that will anger some but at least listen to my reasoning. For the last 20 years we have had relative peace at home…why is that? Has our protection at the border been that much better than it was on 9/11? There is my opinion a very simple answer and a Machiavellian strategy that we successfully employed in Afghanistan…simply put…we fought them there so we wouldn’t have to fight them here. Afghanistan (and Iraq…and Syria), was the flame to which the evil moths were drawn. The enemy sought to defeat the Americans on the battlefield, wear them down, end their imperial invasion. Whether it was to establish a caliphate, protect ancient lands or to fight on their terms, they ran to the sound of our guns. You know when folks in that part of the world watch Star Wars, we are the empire. Our strategy was rooted in a grand strategy used in World War One…bleed them dry. At horrific battle sites like Verdun the point was never to take territory or advance the front, it was simply to kill as many of on the other side as possible. In fact, the strategy was summed up in a common phrase of the day, Bleed them white.” I would argue it worked. The 2312 Americans who died in Afghanistan bought us 20 years of relative peace at home. In grand strategy terms, a small price to pay. Now that the flame has gone out in Afghanistan we should ask some very important questions and I don’t think we will like the answers. Do you think peace is going to break out?...no more deployments…all is going to be great…candy canes and unicorns right? Are they (and others), emboldened to come after us now that they defeated us over there? What is our standing in the world community? We literally ran away in the middle of the night. Will anyone ever trust us again? We abandoned them, anyone who ever helped us will most certainly pay a horrible price, what lesson did that teach the rest of the world. I crossed that fence 179 times and if I close my eyes I can still hear the sounds, I can smell the cordite, I can hear the voices on the radio, I can hear the guns firing and I can still see the sights 20 years later. Afghanistan will be with me until I die, it is the same for many of you. Whatever your views I pray that each and every one of you who set foot in the country or flew missions over it will find perspective and peace. Afghanistan, where all great empires go to die.

Yep, only Ghenghis Khan subdued Afghanistan and he did that with mass slaughter. That isn't an option in this day and age and it would ultimately be counterproductive. Afghanistan should have just been a series of raids to get OBL and the Taliban elite, not boots on the ground.

And now Biden is blaming Trump…suggesting that he couldn’t change the policy that was laid out by Trump before Biden took office. But yet Biden has reversed Trump’s policies on everything from the border, to immigration, to the pipeline, to transgenders serving in the military…on and on. Full disclosure: I’m glad we’re out, and it’s long overdue, so I’m not blaming Biden per se. But if Biden truly believed that Afghanistan’s military was going to be effective then he’s more incompetent than I thought (or a liar) and/or needs to replace his most senior advisors who are incompetent and giving Biden bad info. And for all the progressives and neocons arguing that nationalism and “America First” is wrong or somehow racist, this is what happens when you put the well being of other countries above your own citizenry. It sucks that the Taliban will go back to treating women so poorly and commit other atrocities, but it’s not our responsibility to fix it.

amen to that. total disgrace. also i never want to hear "hearts and minds" again or "nation building". as a country we should only commit military force to totally fucking smash the enemy and get out. it makes me sick remembering how we had to operate under some of the most bull shit ROE i've seen. and having to listen to karzi on his high fucking horse criticizing US forces. the afghans had 20 years to decide if they wanted freedom. it's sad they decided it wasn't worth it.

Really? I wonder why the Chinese want in so bad. And I’m not talking natural resources. In time, we’ll lament leaving, ostensibly giving complete freedom of movement to the Chinese, from Iran to North Korea. Geopolitics evolves. The COIN mission was a never-ending failure that should have pivoted a decade ago. Afghanistan, frankly, is more important to US National security today than ever before, and we just handed it over to our number one peer challenger.

Mark Milley is too busy trying to understand "White Rage" to do any soul searching in AFG. Video of the scramble to board a C-17 in Kabul while AAA is visible in the sky. Sad. https://twitter.com/IntelOmarion/status/1426950526416134151?s=20

Primary blame goes to the Bush admin for fighting a war whatsoever. Turns out having an emotional response to a terrrorist attack isn’t a good grand strategy. Going to Iraq on top of that was inane. If you don’t have goals and a realistic exit strategy, you don’t get to go to war. The other thing that we have to realize is that we, as a nation, can’t just “fix” the world to be pro-US. But over 70 years of propaganda in US education during the Cold War teaching American Exceptionalism and 30 years of being the only superpower - something that is extremely rare in all of human civilization - is going to be hard to come to terms with. The future is not one of American unquestioned superiority. We’re going to have to find our place in a world that equalizes, and it’s gonna suck. Because I can tell you very few people on any political side have really embraced that reality. And let’s be real, both Obama and Trump were handed a hot bag of shit. Obama tried to just leave and ISIS happened. Trump was faced with largely the same problems and it’s a lose-lose. Now imagine that China invades Taiwan in 1-5 years. Do we go? Why? It sure as hell shouldn’t be because it feels right. Add Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Crimea onto Vietnam as big L’s for the US. We need to do some serious soul searching in the coming years. We need a better strategy than going by feel - it’s not working so good.

Afghan president just fled the country. Taliban have entered Kabul city limits. It's over guys. I hope what dudes we have left there can get get out safely. I also hope this conflict leaves a stain on the political careers of every politician and general that's served in the last 20 years. This was disgraceful.

Can I get a “Hey!” from my fellow “terrorists?”

Why don't you explain the pros and cons of a fiat vs commodity monetary systems.

"The Taliban are desperate to get supplies of medium range surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) from China"

I wish them the same success we had.

Yup They lead with soft power then gradually get harder (sts) - first sample by the dealer is always free Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just a guess but I think it’s possible they may propose a pipeline thru Afghanistan to link Iranian petroleum exports to the PRC Throw in further potential rare earth minerals mining, weapons, utilities, telecom sales and funding them as a useful proxy to harass, disrupt, attack Western / US interests / forces when beneficial to the overall interest of the PRC you can see the utility of the PRC’s efforts to court the Taliban. Belt-n-Road may get another partner Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe us military folks on this forum should have the SA to hold of on the blame/pointing fingers game that all these worthless suits and talking heads in Washington are engaging in while our brothers and sisters are still in harms way in that shithole of a country.

Biden got handed a hot sack of shit. He did contribute to that sack though in his tenure as VP, but that sack is filled with shit from the last 3 administrations. Politicians, generals, IC leaders, state department leaders. The media needs to play this out because this is our countrys failure and if we don't take it and own it and spend the next 20 years reflecting on it, all of those lives would have really been given for nothing.

Trump tried... https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2020/07/unconventional-tactic-becomes-congresss-go-weapon-against-troop-withdrawal/166880/ Power of the purse kept Trump too from spending $$ on the withdrawal... https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/house-democrats-working-with-liz-cheney-restrict-trumps-planned-withdrawal-of-troops-from-afghanistan-and-germany/

I imagine China bombarding Taiwan and the other pacific countries with pics and video, “this is what happens when you trust the United States”

Looks like I’m a threat to the nation, even though I wore the uniform for ten years.

I hear ya but they’ve got different goals Them - Acquire wealth and power without giving a shit about anything else or how Us - Fix everything and make everyone nice immediately We’re kinda at a disadvantage Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If that's true...Holy. Shit. Yeah, we jumped the shark a while ago didn't we? 😮

I already did…you dismissed it. Obama literally said he supported the Afghanistan war at the beginning of his presidency and wanted to expand it…and he did.

I get the sentiment, but not ever asking questions just because I am deployed to Afghanistan and you shouldn’t be disrespectful to me isn’t productive for the nation. See why it was seen as unpatriotic to even question the Iraq war in 2003.

This right here is why we choose to stay in places we shouldn’t be in…”If only we killed more military aged men”, then we would have turned the tide to support America… Every drone strike that killed innocent civilians, created 10 new enemies, it was never going to end like we choose. We went to Afghanistan to avenge 9/11 and got stuck in nation building, all while we got sidetracked in WMD Iraq war. It’s a massive shit sandwich with no good outcomes, unless we we’re willing to be a indefinite occupier.

Absolute cowardice. At least the ARVN, South Vietnamese army, and other South Vietnamese forces fought against the onslaught of the North Vietnamese army…..even if they had to keep establishing defensive positions while retrograding. These Afghan government clowns have put up zero resistance. Which makes me think they’re either Taliban sympathizers, or outright cowards. Even the final night, 29 April 1975, saw a VNAF South Vietnamese Air Force AC-119G aerial gunship crew, along with two A-1 Skyraider planes, attacking advancing NVA armor and vehicles that were traveling south towards Saigon. The crews would land to refuel and rearm themselves since no one was available to do so, and relaunch in order to get airborne and keep attacking the enemy. Right up until sunrise when one A-1 and the AC-119G were both hit by SA-7 Grail MANPADS and shot down, with only a couple of crewmen from the AC-119 bailing out, did the resistance end as the last A-1 expended the last of its munitions, and turned west for Thailand.

Only a metaphor right now, but here's your photo op...

Trump actually set and approved a May withdrawal date he intended to see through in his second term. When Biden took office he was uncomfortable with a upholding a decision that quickly. So he requested the JCS replan for a later withdrawal but one that absolutely did not prolong the war past 20 years. That's how you go the official end of operations date for OEF on 9/11 this year.

Get our people out and stop with these stupid ass ROE. These Taliban fucks want to come out and conquer territory and threaten Americans, I hope we kill a few thousand of them via PGM as our parting gift.

Blow it up as the last helicopter flies clear Start planning the B-2 round the world strike now Enjoy your rubble… Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll enjoy the schadenfreude. I'd feel a little sympathy if the AF had left the bonus at pre-COVID terms. But they didn't. They took the risk that COVID would affect the airlines longer, and offered a bonus with shit terms with less money/longer minimum commitments. They gambled and lost. So to hell with a big AF that makes it pretty clear they do not appreciate their rated force.

Halfway down the runway 10 knots fast?

This. I looked at his Twitter page and he has zero posts on things like the out of control spending, border crisis, etc… Pretty sure his role as an elected official goes beyond hating Trump and only worrying about Jan 6th, but what do I know?

That’s the funniest thing I’ll see all year.

His shtick has gotten tired. I understand he’s trying to paint himself as the anti-Trump guy, but he’s got nothing to offer except tears and more “January 6th is the worst day in American history” narrative. Those buffoons and LARP idiots have all been arrested and will serve jail time. After 5 years, the Trump haters still haven’t realized what he craves, it’s attention. And this commission will only breathe life into his followers. How about this, do, or even just say something, about the trillions of dollars we’re just printing every 6 months.

Don't know him personally or professionally as I'm not in his district, hope he's an ok guy in person and will accept those testimonials about the many things he's done for service folk. Appreciate that. However, his constituents, the ones he's elected to represent seem to disagree with his stance rather strongly to include at least one county, I believe two but stand to be corrected, GOP committee censuring him for his vote to impeach Trump. The one county I am aware of is LaSalle County which is part of his district. Other county so censuring Iroquois which is also within this district. His choice to roll the dice to see if they either forget by next election or whether his district gets dissolved by the Illinois legislature as is likely if the state loses a congressional seat due to redistricting. I do take issue with his vote to strip the bat-sh1t crazy Georgia congresswoman of all her committee assignments. He helped deny her constituents their effective representation that they knowingly elected her to. As always in politics, IMO, it's a case of follow the money. His just started anti-Trump PAC combined with his many appearances on liberal media looks like a way to set up a comfy post-congressional lifestyle, either via K Street and/or TV gigs. Don't blame him a bit but it just strikes me as the B-model Scarborough. edited to add the specific counties which is in the district being discussed.

No Fear Thanks fellas. Fear is really all over politics and its corrosive. Im at total peace. Put the above video out yesterday on Fear to begin that convo on what is driving our politics and what is the next generation learning, besides be crazy=get famous.

Keep it up man.

An Illinois county that he doesn't even represent voted to censure him. Which shows how seriously we should take county party organizations. Maybe the 4H club two counties over will censure him next! It's refreshing to see a true conservative refuse to go down with the ship. He also won his district by a substantially higher margin that did Trump, so his constituency is clearly well represented. I hope he's the future of the party. If not, God help us all.

How did he feel about going to Iraq for "WMDs"?

biden is showing how incompetent he is. can't blame trump for this one it happened on his watch. disgraceful.