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You might be right. But I assume Gen Milley has a good understanding of the nuclear enterprise, and if the reporting is correct, was genuinely concerned enough about Trump's behavior towards the end of his presidency to take drastic action. If Milley ends up resigning or being fired over it, I bet he keeps a clear conscious on the actions be took. Insanity! First, there are procedures that he could have taken inline with the LAW. He can go to the President's cabinet and ask them to invoke the 25th, he can resign in protest, he can even go to the press. If (and we still need to learn the truth), but if he did what is reported...he bypassed the law and effectively staged a coupe. This is beyond serious, this is the very foundation of our system, the bedrock of which is civilian control. Again I know the recent faults with Woodward but for a moment assume lets what he said is true. Milley stepped between civilian control of the nukes, asked officers to swear an oath to him and told the Chicoms he would warn of an attack. This sounds like the plot out of a movie or a military junta taking power in a banana republic. I thought the fiasco leaving Afghanistan was bad but if true this goes beyond resign, this should turn to Courts Martial. We REALLY need to know and understand what happened and find the true, the republic is at stake.

This hypothetical scenario based speculation is mildly interesting, but it’s quite clear CJCS is a disgrace for many reasons and must resign or be fired. I personally think Austin, Miley and McKenzie at a minimum no longer remain credible in their positions after the AFG debacle. Unfortunately we all know there will be no accountability.

The good ole days of being a UPT IP are over. AETC “is at war”. Not my quote, that’s from the senior leaders. What it translates to: expect max duty day, min crew rest, minimal CT opportunity, and local weekend flying. Sure, you PROBABLY won’t deploy and you’ll get to sleep in your own bed most nights…but the job is hardly a cake walk anymore. You’re going to trade extended TDYs for the meat grinder of pilot production. Reference the manning crisis threads for further.

You know the easy way out to a lot of people's hesitation to the new mRNA-type vaccines would be to just get the J&J jab and be done with it. It's an adenovirus vaccine. The technology has been around and been used since the 1970's in many other vaccinations. Get the J&J, get it in your military medical records as having a COVID shot and be done with it.

But it's not about his conscious or how well he sleeps at night. If we reach back to our PME (shudder) and remember our Instruments of National Power, diplomacy, info, military, economic (DIME)... if everything else fails, and it's starting to seem that way, we had our military nuclear deterrent. Our nuclear enterprise has taken decades of work to establish. The process of launching nukes has constantly undergone a series of upgrades, tweaks, and adjustments to ensure that is works and that it is safe. Although I've forgotten most of it, we've all either written papers on it or studied it. As it is important to us that this system works, it is vitally important that our enemies know our system works. Mark Milley has not only (allegedly) undermined that system at home, but he (allegedly) called our biggest strategic enemy and advertised it to them, "Yo Li, our long established process for launching nuclear missiles, and biggest instrument of our national power and check against yours, is broken. You're welcome." Trump had lost the election. Pelosi called Milley to "inquire" about nuclear weapons. Is it possible that Milley was acting out of self-preservation to please the incoming administration and ensure he had a continuing career? What if he had said to Pelosi "Sorry Ma'am, that's outside the scope of my duties." He'd be toast 12 days later. I remember on that day, Pelosi making a comment to the media that checks were in place to make sure our nukes were safe... just to intimate that they previously were not under Trump. It was political move. If all this is true, the Trust is broken. Who has control over our military? Milley did not like or trust Trump to be sane enough make a rational complex military decision, but he trusts Biden? For real?? If anyone is arguing Trump was not mentally fit to make those decisions, they must be making the argument that Biden is. Politics has superseded safety in our process for launching nukes. It will take longer to rebuild this damage than it will for our enemies to exploit it.

I don’t think you have a clear understanding of how the nuclear enterprise works.

The president has absolute authority on the understood expectation he is acting in the best interest to protect our country and its citizens… that’s what grants him he authority to order a launch under the current law, and while there has been an effort of late to limit the President from First Strike ability under actual law, there is an important and ignored part of the checks and balances on this…. The Presidents cabinet and the people who would chose to say”dude isn’t fit for office, let’s exercise the 25th amendment” are Senate confirmed positions for that exact reason. The expectation is that the senate exercises that oversight to make sure the room isn’t full of some weird death cult bushido type crazy’s who would follow the president down into the bunker to watch it all burn together. That checks and balances process was eroded when the party in power changed cabinet confirmation (along with others like judicial) to a simple majority… in 2013. Gee…. Wonder if the Democrats wanted that decision back after Trump got elected. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Remember that time Flynn communicated with a Russian government official as part of his upcoming duties and it spawned a 3 year investigation into Russian control of the executive branch? That said, I'm skeptical of anything Woodward says these days, but if anything even remotely approximating "I'll tell you if we are going to attack" was said, an example should be made. Prison would suffice.

I dunno man. Damage was done for this. He subverted civilian control of the military and betrayed our defense posture to a strategic competitor. This is serious. If anyone else did this, there would definitely be consequences.

I know Austin is set to testify within the next two weeks, I hope the same for Milley. I am suspicious when it comes to Woodward these days but if even parts of this are true then by definition didn't we have a partial military coupe in this country? If CJCS makes subordinates swear an oath and instructs them to ignore orders from the president...wow just wow...especially as it relates to nukes. Now if Milley wants to make the argument that Trump was not of sound mind, why didn't he come forward? Also and just as concerning, these reporters have know about this for months and they didn't come forward. The press is supposed to be the 4th estate, the final check and balance for the people. Instead it has morphed into an extension of one party with members that are simply trying to become wealthy themselves. These reporters had a duty to come forward and report. IF what they wrote is true and they certainly must believe it is true, the CJCS attempted a coupe and possibly treason, but they kept quite and wrote a book. Example #69 of how broken the press actually is.

I'll concede that your first statement is mostly accurate; looking back, most people on this forum did caveat things with "if true" or something to that effect. Since we're speculating, to your second point, predictability is the is one of the reasons I'm very skeptical about the allegations contained in this latest book. Most 3-4 star generals are politicians or at least very politically savvy once they get to that level, it's how they got there in the first place. In my experience, all the generals I've been around or worked with at that level invoke CYA in almost everything they do and say (I think they take a class in it prior to pinning on that third star). Slight derail, as I understand it (I've never done a puzzle palace tour thankfully) it used to be the JCS was actually one leadership level where this wasn't always true, since once you've made JCS or CJCS you've hit the ceiling, there's no where else to go. My buddies up in the Pentagon have told me that dynamic changed appreciably once Mattis was made SECDEF; several generals now had the attitude that they were still potentially upwardly mobile and started acting as such, but I digress. I find it very difficult to believe that Milley told the Chinese he'd give them a heads up before the US attacked or that he made other officers swear an oath to him regarding the use of nuclear weapons because if he did those things too many people are/were in the know and as has been stated on this forum, those are illegal acts that would result in UCMJ actions. If the people in the room for those calls or the officers he allegedly made swear an oath get hauled in front of Congress, the IG, or a courts martial, they're not going to fall on their swords for the good general. He'd be proper fucked and he's smart enough to know that. Another thing to consider, at least regarding the timing of the first call. What if Trump had won the election? I find it very difficult (though not impossible, as I said I'll be interested in what he says to Congress on the 28th) to believe that Milley would take such actions or say such things knowing the guy he allegedly is conspiring against might still be his boss. Trump sure as shit wasn't going to give him a pardon or be forgiving about it. To be clear, I'm not arguing that Milley didn't do and say these things because of his honorable character, I'm saying I think it's very unlikely because he's a political creature. On the Chris Miller denial point in particular, we'll have to agree to disagree. In a follow up to his statement to Fox about the phone calls, he told Politico, despite his pretty forceful rebuke: "I imagine there was a perfunctory exchange between us and our staffs about coordinating phone calls and messages for the day.” “I don’t recall the specifics, and it certainly wasn’t in a detailed or more formal way," he added. "It was more perfunctory/routine.” Always have an out/CYA. Also, the guy was in the seat as SECDEF for 53 days; before that he was ASD/SOLIC for only 3 months. In most staff gigs it takes a min 4-6 weeks to get your head wrapped around the day-in/out basics. At the time of the second phone call, he was two days removed from the storming of the capital debacle and he also was working to catch up on the transition to the Biden administration, which had been delayed due to Trump's refusal to concede the election results. My guess (once again I'm speculating) is that his office had been advised of the call and that he had other things going on. FWIW, I think at minimum McKenzie and Milley should resign over how the Afghan withdrawal was conducted, I'm just not fired up over this story unless more corroborating facts come out. My personal take on this right now is that it smells of the 10% truth rule on Friday night stories at the squadron bar.

Am I the only one who is as taken aback with his statement his to Chinese counterpart that he would let him know if we were coming? WTFO? What happened to surprise and initiative???

That’s not true, it’s all a hoax. That’s what they want you to believe. The student pilots don’t need some experimental accelerated pilot training program that got rushed through and put into circulation. The IPs just need to give them some ivermectin and the students will fly better and the IPs won’t need to work so hard. Oh wait, wrong thread. Sorry about that…

Would you make this argument if said student got RPAs, completed the syllabus, then DOR'd right before graduation?

Nearly everybody on this forum has used the words "if true" or some derivation, and no one said we should bypass his right to a fair trial. Your arguments don't require strawmen to be true. Further, there's no requirement to wait until the trial has been conducted to speculate, since none of us are going to be investigating him. Especially with politics. Politicians (and Milley is probably more of a politician than he is a soldier at this point) act very predictably. One thing they almost never do is allow a false story to float without an outright denial. Think Hunter Biden and his laptop. As I've said repeatedly, I don't trust Woodward as far as I can throw him. However if the journalist is famous as Bob Woodward makes a claim about a politician, and the politician doesn't issue a denial, it's time to pay close attention. There are also some fairly high profile rebukes coming out that I don't believe would occur without some behind the scenes validating. Christopher Miller is one such example. Honestly looking at Milley, a cartoon character of what a military General should be, I'm not at all surprised that he did it, and had the chutzpa to brag about it to a journalist. It seems like a lot of these "dissidents" from the conservative wing get a taste of media adulation for some "heroic" act against the great orange vulgarian and they quickly forget that they are still enemies to the left and will not be forgiven for their unacceptable wrong-think.

IMHO China is FAR closer to going after Taiwan than most believe. In addition to the rhetoric they have significantly ramped up military actions near Taiwan. Over the past 12 months they have launched ever increasing tests of Taiwan airspace. A few months ago the air packages were 20+ airplanes with one big push of 40+ aircraft including a large number of bombers and AEW aircraft. Last week another large force package crossed the Taiwan ADIZ, including nuclear capable bombers. Strong messaging and shaping for their ultimate goal of unification.

That’s actually exactly how it works. There’s a whole system and it doesn’t include the CJCS, nor does it need to. Edit to add: it’s not like it goes straight from POTUS to 25 Captain Snuffy’s with launch keys. There are several high ranking people on down that could preempt malfeasance.

No treason. Admin doesn’t consider China an enemy.

Yea, don’t use that phrase. UPT IPs require 100 hours of AC time or a waiver. White jet tours are sometimes referred to ALFA. Air Liaison Officer (ALO), Lead In Fighter Training (IFF), Forward Air Controller-Airborne (FAC-A), Air Training Command (AETC UPT, UCT, URT IP)

https://fox59.com/news/hundreds-turn-out-to-honor-corporal-humberto-sanchez-during-hometown-procession/ One of the 13 heroes come home today via Grissom ARB. 1000s (not an exaggeration) of motorcycles in the procession. It took hours to transfer Corporal Sanchez to his home in Logansport because the streets were lined with people paying their respects. He was 22. And he was a patriot.

All completely plausible. I will only quibble on one point, that politicians and generals are good at covering their ass. They are very good at not giving answers. But when it comes to what they do (when they think they are) behind closed doors, there I have to disagree with you. McChrystal (sp?), Patraeus, Mark Sanford, Larry Craig. Obama's "after the election" message to Putin, John Edwards... Do I need to go on? They absolutely, positively, always cover their ass. But that doesn't mean that they're always smart enough to know when they should. And honestly, at this point I think it's abundantly clear that there is a negative correlation between intelligence, competence, and vision, vs the drive to achieve the highest levels of political power.

UPT has always been a grind. We trip-turned 38s, flew weekends as well. Sad if leadership won’t let some good XC deals offset the pace.

Any of the vaccines meet the mandate requirement; DoD can only force you to take Pfizer since that’s the only FDA approved one. Got two guys in my class that got the J&J off base and they’re green as far the military is concerned.

Don’t know, honestly think it could be Wg/CC and timing dependent but I’m speculating, the email didn’t go into any more specifics. I also don’t have even close to the full story on this so any guess I make as to 19th/AF and AETC’s actions would be just a guess. Personal opinion, if the guy completed the syllabus, was just waiting on graduation and I was wing king I’d let him wing with his class; I wouldn’t see that as being tied to the vaccine refusal.

I think he should argue that he successfully completed the training, and met all the preexisting conditions and standards to be designated an Air Force pilot. It wasn't until after he met those requirements that the vaccine was mandated, and even then, it isn't a condition for being a pilot, just for staying in. Even still, I'd also be surprised. It's probably a rare situation and the risk of blowback for denying him wings isn't enough for Wing leadership to care about. Unless they're a Gen Milley, they're going to tow the line.

This is a terrible strawman. No, we don't allow presidents to just decide to commit mass murder. There is a "road to war" that involves many outside sources. The mass murder without any reasonable cause is the war crime, not the particular weapon here.

And yet Milley is saying we have to get rid of the “extremism” in the military…when (if this is true) he’s by far the worst extremist we have if he’s not willing to follow orders from POTUS for political reasons.

Having the “first African American SECDEF” resign is not good optics for the democrats and woke crowd, so it will not happen. That alone is everything wrong with the left today and a contributing factor to why we are in this mess. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@M2 It seems this thread and the “Changing/Switching Airframes” thread in General Discussion are basically the same thing.

There was an ok Radiolab episode about this: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/nukes Presidents are human and could get drunk, unstable, angry, vindictive, and everything else. In my opinion, we basically just hope they don’t.

Presidents allow for (and order) the bombing of random people all through history…civilians as well. Other than the number of people dying, what’s the difference? Is there a number of people dying where it changes from a lawful order to war crime? Have any of the bombings done by the US in our history been a war crime? Why even have nukes if using them would be a war crime?

It's an interesting one. On the one hand the Chief Executive is the sole legal release authority for nuclear weapons. On the other hand, anyone following an order to randomly nuke a country would almost certainly be committing a war crime, and thus have a duty to disobey.

We've had this discussion before. When you say "a certain statistically significant/severity threshold", it indicates you don't actually know. It may not even be your fault. Perhaps you don't know because those numbers don't exist. Even if we could produce completely objective measurement and defined goals, the CDC and vaccine manufacturers wouldn't want them to exist. If a concrete threshold did exist, it would be a target, and they don't want to hit the target. Do you and I get the freedom to choose whether to walk in or out our front door no matter the associated risks and without government imposed consequences? Who? Names. Who specifically is making the determination of "safe", "effective", how, and why do you personally trust them with your health? Please say Fauci. I'm ready for that one. 😄 If it's someone else, do I also get to produce an opposing argument from a healthcare professional who has made it their life's work? If someone is a nutritionist, do you want them dictating to you what you can and can't eat whether you agree or not? And should you job depend on it? Great! I think you should take it. But, what if I or my doctor assesses my risk of hospitalization and death due to COVID to be low because I am healthy and I have tested for, and possess, natural antibodies? Isn't that what vaccines are for? My body has already done the work. And I can cite studies that show natural immunity is better. There's a new flu shot every year because flu shots do not eradicate the flu. (Although COVID has) So, are you saying that COVID, also, cannot be eliminated? I think you're way too deferential to unnamed experts you've never met and likely know virtually nothing about. That is entirely your choice. When it comes to matters of my own health, I'm not going to be. If I have a health problem, I discuss it with my own personal doctor, whom I know and he knows me. I still get to choose whether to accept his diagnosis and treatment. How many times in history must it be demonstrated that being deferential and submissive to government power is bad for your health?

Spot on especially with regard to innocent until proven guilty and Woodward's books. If only the system has taken the same approach to General Flynn... I hope Cotton and others can peal back the onion and I think there should be something even more formal with the DOD IG...perhaps a special counsel. Even if completely innocent and explainable the system and the people need absolute transparency. Since the beginning we have held civilian rule as a basic tenant and the mere perception of improper military influence over power, nuclear weapons or the rule of law is something that needs a microscope. Others have commented on Woodward and his books, obviously he has a halo from the Watergate days but he has indeed become more partisan and INHO sloppy in his older years. He does seem to find "sources" on the periphery and mainstreams their outlandish claims. Milley is clearly a political animal and it is my personal belief that he has leaked some of these and other details. For the good of the country I hope the rest of the accusations are false, if they are not then it certainly adds even more fuel to the deep state argument and potentially undermines our entire way of life.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/milley-chinese-counterpart-phone-calls-senate-testimony I would encourage everyone to read the entire article above and not just the headline. If you believe Fox News reporting, then it doesn't seem like the accounts in Woodward's book are 100% accurate to say the least.

With a Dem as POTUS? Even if he was charged with anything, Biden would pardon him.

I was at Laughlin for 4 years and had a great time.

It will.

Milley is a fucking disgrace

Lots of parties at the club, flotillas on the lake. I’d routinely take a T-38 XC solo on weekends from TX to WA, land at a civilian airport, party with friends, and fly home. Sure, it has its down sides but overall a great experience.

Maybe I’m misinformed, but Milley is not part of the Chain of Command when it comes to launching nukes. It goes POTUS-SECDEF-STRATCOM-and then on Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You would think, but who will do the firing? At this point, I think we should consider the facts: - He usurped the sacrosanct authority our civilian government should always have over our military - He sidestepped the chain of command and contacted a strategic enemy's military leadership directly to cconspire in relaying information regarding our national defense and DEFCON status. There should be at the very minimum, a nationally televised joint congressional hearing followed by an indictment and trial. But that's likely not going to happen.

The level of Chinese meddling in other societies and even UN processes, all for bolstering their Nationalism, should frighten everyone. Imagine you applying for a grant to the UN for a music scholarship, and then be turned down because you said "Taiwan." But changing that to Taiwan Province of China is okay, and you're magically approved. China looks at every little thing which comes before the UN, they seek every avenue to further their influence and stature. Conversely, every bit of US nationalism is assailed by the woke crowd. So tiring.

And... why does congress allow blanket immunity from legal liability for all vaccine manufacturers? what other private industry is given protection from lawsuits over physical harm caused by its product that the government forces its citizens to use?

why is congress exempt from the vax mandate for federal employees?

They absolutely should be repealed or at the very least renewed but they won't be. Right now Congress gets to have their cake and eat it too. They can argue either for or against the use of military force without having to actually go on record to vote for or against sending their constituents and said constituents' sons and daughters to war. A good majority of them rail against federal overreach and the expanding powers of the Executive branch but are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to voting to go to war.

So long as the Congress is democratically aligned with a sitting Dem president no. And I’d argue the same would be true the other way around. Funny I remember all sorts of loud urgency on the need to collapse the expanded Presidential powers once Trump used the act to take out Solemani. Wonder where that emphasis went… Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Now that the Afghanistan is over, does anybody think the 2001 and 2003 AUMFs will be repealed? AUMF reform is desperately needed so Congress can actually take some responsibility and actually vote for committing US forces to conflicts rather than abdicating all of the responsibility onto the Executive. Something that I learned from the below podcast was that the 1991 AUMF is technically still in effect and was used in part as the legal basis for committing forces to OIR in 2014. The Lawfare Podcast: AUMF Reform After Afghanistan - Lawfare (lawfareblog.com)

Well more people in the country today seem to care about football than what happened in Afghanistan…