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It's....transitioning?

Do I think the woman who had years and years of political experience and a foreign policy team that didn't consist of her immediate relatives, some real estate tycoons, and a fox news/Nat guard maj, would have done better? You can't seriously tell me that the answer to the question is anything other than yes. We wouldn't be in the conflict because diplomacy would've prevailed. If we were drawn into it anyways, we'd have more experience and stability at the helm to lead it. A person that actually could read their daily intelligence briefings, understand the levers Iran has, and work with rather than allienate allies and experts (Ukraine) to nullify their advantages. Remind me, how much was gas when Biden left office? How much is it now?

Do you seriously think it would have been worse? Serious question.

interesting take from the side that simply claims "TDS" for every critique of their orange god they can't/won't respond to, but go off queen 💅

@Pooter @No One It’s very easy to understand guys, stop being such disingenuous douches.

The left will NEVER see a positive thing associated with Trump. Sometime in the early 2030's our Baseops loonies will begin their annual trip to Miami to have a TDS circle jerk in the parking lot of Trump's Presidential library. More Americans died in the liberal mecca of Chicago last weekend than the entire U.S. military since the fight with Iran started...

It must be exhausting to be such a miserable person so full of rage. Go have a few beers and relax a bit.

Absolutely! Based on the previous two Democratic administrations, she would have either a) buried her head even deeper into the sand and/or b) sent pallets of money to them in hopes to buy their cooperation. If you think she would have been smarter, please enlighten us all!

Peace deal:

-No tax on tips is solid -I like how angry he makes blue haired liberals -I generally like his border hawkishness but in execution it’s been kinda a mess -his Supreme Court picks have been generally decent There. Now can we talk about how this war is a shitshow? Or are we just gonna deflect to Chicago crime rates or me being “triggered” or TDS again? Explain to me how we are in a materially better position right now with this 10 point ceasefire proposal, than we were two months ago before all this went down. And I’m talking strategically. I know we blew up a bunch of their stuff. We’re great at that. Cool. Explain to me how Iran is weaker in terms of regional influence today than they were last year. Because it seems like they just got us to tentatively agree to a deal that is better than anything they’ve had in decades.

I will never discuss this with you in "good faith" because you can't admit a single good thing Trump has done. The vast majority of us have pointed out the good and the and said we don't like him a as person. Its that simple...you hate him....we get, it is pointless to even attempt to discuss issues with you.

If BaseOps used AI to moderate posts I'm convinced this thread would drive the AI to become self-aware and destroy mankind.

For the record let's exam the last deal the US managed to negotiate in 2015. Key Aspects of the JCPOA: Nuclear Constraints: Iran agreed to reduce its installed centrifuges, cap uranium enrichment at (far below the needed for weapons), and redesign the Arak heavy-water reactor to prevent plutonium production. Sanctions Relief: The UN, US, and EU agreed to lift nuclear-related economic sanctions on Iran. Monitoring: The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) was granted enhanced access and monitoring of Iranian facilities, including 25-year surveillance of uranium mines. Sounds like much better terms than were getting now. What happened to that deal? Oh right trump couldn't stand someone else's signature on it. Withdrawal: In 2018, the US withdrew under President Trump, citing limitations in the deal (e.g., sunset clauses) and re-imposed sanctions. Iran subsequently began enriching uranium to higher levels. Iran isn't going to negotiate. Last time they did in earnest, we said "lol jk" within 3 years. Then used the fact they're enriching uranium, even though we are the ones that backed of the agreement that prevented them from doing so, to bomb the shit out of them 7 years later.

Reading all of the “pundits” posts here, listening to all of the “pundits” on Cable TV and Network stations. Communicating with Family and Friends, and listening to their definitive opinions….is like listening to debates of the existence of God, Heaven, or Hell… And since I’m getting older, and wiser now, to when knowing to sit and wait things out… And so, I’ll Toast (with another IPA from “tac airlifter”) to all of you my fellow pilots and to your Family and Friends. Cheers, keep it civil guys…. Check 6

100%. It's always the case. Bring paragraphs of arguments and the evidence to back it up and the only counter is "TDS. But what about Harris." 5 pages ago these guys refused to believe osint reporting we'd lost an F-15E. Now let's sweep it under the rug along with 2x MC-130s, 1x E-3, 5+ KC-135s, 1x A-10 and sky-high oil prices. Look at the backlash regarding the troops lost at abbey gate executing Trump's poorly negotiated withdrawal deal. The ability to project outrage only when the other side is at the helm is ridiculous.

Yes - we would have been burdened by what was.

I read a lot of their nonsense just for mod reasons, otherwise, I’ve taken the stance that if they don’t want to discuss in good faith, then why bother.

I love how triggered these guys are...thanks for the comedy.

Because after seeing years of simping and rushing to his defense when we call him out for saying clearly unhinged stuff, you saying “well I don’t like everything he says” and claiming not to be a supporter doesn’t really convince me anymore. The “I’m just a stoic political realist who picked the lesser of two evils” routine doesn’t hold as much water when you charge in to defend him and glaze his every policy move whenever there’s the slightest criticism. As others have said there is actually a 3rd option here: expect better and stop making excuses for the guy

Whoa whoa buddy. Verifiably false information, must be hard having so much pent up rage. Drink a beer bro, you’re being a Loonie, chill out. #TDS Trump Devotion Syndrome. Sorry, is this how we’re supposed to argue on this forum? Tryin to channel my inner CH/Brabdawg

From The Atlantic back in September of 2016: "It’s a familiar split. When he makes claims like this, the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally." Almost 10 years later and you guys haven't figured it out. Would I prefer a president who says what they mean and speaks with poise and strength, instead of lobbing rhetorical bombs in every direction to keep the news cycle in a constant state of catastrophe and, more importantly, to keep him front and center of every single camera? Sure. But I react to the world I'm in, not the world I desire. His supporters ignore his insane rambling and unhinged posting because he delivers where others have not. Please don't waste our time with the many examples of Trump failing to deliver. That's every president ever, and humans don't care about every issue. Only one president treated illegal immigration as illegal. Only one president has scraped the trans insanity out of the government ranks. Only one president has given the 2A community a supreme court that actually believes in the 2A. Only one president has told our "allies" to put up or fuck off. On and on. You don't like those things. That's fine. If you don't like what he's doing, you'll definitely latch on to what he's saying as more evidence of his whatevertheaccusationoftheday is. But to the Americans who are finally getting their policy priorities met, his obvious lies and bluffs are just the cost of politics. That doesn't mean Iran is going to end well, but I'm not going to suddenly start caring about his rhetoric now. I want a non-nuclear Iran. I want the regime that routinely kills Americans and Israelis to die, or live in perpetual fear of dying. I want the Chinese to have as few allies as possible for when we end up in a war with them. I want Europe scared of their self-imposed weakness and South America stable and productive. I would *love* to get those things from a president that spoke like Obama and appreciated our history like Bush Sr. But I can't. I'm not going to pretend that his favorable policy results make him a good man. I think Trump is a piece of shit. But I'm also not going to pretend like he's the first piece of shit in Washington. Or the first liar. Or the first politician to take classified information home. Or cheat on his wife. Or enrich his family. I hate those things. But I also hate mosquitoes, yet neither one is going away anytime soon. And personally I kind of like having politicians look as ugly on the outside as they act behind closed doors.

An insightful rebuttal as always, brabus. Should I write the exact same thing to you every time you rant about the lunacy of the left? Or does the “misery and rage” label only apply to those who don’t love your Dear Leader? Here’s the thing. I’m not miserable and I’m not full of rage. I am angered, dismayed, and saddened to watch Trump and his cabinet of sell-outs and yes-men systematically dismantle our country’s reputation and honor. To watch them build and sustain this bizarre cult of personality, in which literally nothing is too crazy, too shameful, or too inexcusable, ….and in which you appear to have bought into, hook line and sinker. Your response above is a prime example. These tweets are only the latest in a 10+ year history that includes calls to terminate the constitution, images of American cities in flames/ruins, lies about rigged elections, and labeling half the country as “the enemy within.” Now he says he’s going to wipe out an entire civilization and he ushers in Easter with threats of Hell and praise to Allah. …..and your response is to tell me I’m a miserable person and to “relax and have a beer.” So it’s this. The tribalism, the cult following. The abandonment of core principles. The spinelessness. The sane-washing and the constant effort to defend the indefensible. The sad and predictable minimizing, downplaying, and redirection that you do. This is new. This mindset and this behavior is alarming, especially to see it so widespread. You guys think it’s all about Trump and “TDS.” It’s not. It’s not him, it’s the effect on people and society that’s he’s caused. Trump will eventually be gone, but the rest of us will have to live in the country and culture and world that he’s irreparably damaged.

See you might think this is a damning sequence of incoherence and impulsiveness from our president that sums up the complete lack of strategy and maturity they’re approaching this with, but actually you just have TDS and don’t understand the 15-D chess going on in the background.

"What the Captain means..."

Yeah telling the death cult that they are going to die probably isn't going to have the desired effect. Just kill them.

Reminds me of this famous song:

The pundits on both site cheery pick to make it look great or horrible, I lean to the horrible side for reasons outlined below. I've read a lot of what Gen Jack Keene has written and said on the matter. For those that support do you really think Iran honored the deal? They are masters of lying and delay. JCPOA had a HUGE loophole that allowed Iran up to 24 days before a site could be inspected. Bottom line for me: Why were the enriching in the first place? They lied about the TBMs as proven by four that were launched at Guam (4,000 Miles). There were the single largest exporter of terror in the world. How many dead injured Americans have they impacted? Posted on other sites here are the key faults of JCPOA. Sunset Clauses: Restrictions on uranium enrichment and other activities begin to expire, allowing Iran to expand to an industrial scale after 2030, merely delaying rather than preventing a nuclear program. No Missile Restrictions: The deal did not address Iran's ballistic missile program, which is capable of delivering nuclear weapons. Regional Aggression: Critics claimed sanctions relief provided Iran with funds that enabled it to expand its network of proxy military forces in the Middle East. Weak Inspection Regime: IAEA inspectors did not have unconditional "anytime, anywhere" access, specifically to military sites, with a potential 24-day waiting period for accessing suspicious sites. Limited Scope: The agreement failed to address Iran's past work on nuclear weapons and didn't cover conventional weapons proliferation. Sanctions Relief: The deal freed up billions in assets, which opponents argued empowered a hostile regime rather than encouraging it to change its regional policy.

Lord Ratner, First, the lesser of two evil's argument you keep repeating is such a lame cop-out. "Well....we must have a psycho, liar, piece-of-shit in office....it's just the price of politics" is such an obvious false dichotomy. There's no middle ground? Really? Everyone that's a liar is a liar to the same extreme? Everyone that's corrupt or narcissistic display those traits to the same degree? You know that’s nonsense. …."Like mosquitoes?" (--you just can’t get rid of them, so eff it?) Are you kidding me? You’re smarter than this, so I can only believe you're being intentionally disingenuous. Second, you act like there are no possible ways to suppress Trump's madness or hold him accountable. Once he's in office, that's it. He's in, so he just gets free rein? You’re going to tell me <verbatim> “that's just the politics that I have been delivered.” Wow. If you want to tuck your tail and embrace this “not my fault, can’t control it,” defeatist BS, enjoy. I see right-wingers with “We The People" and “Don’t Tread on Me” flags, stickers, and tattoos all the time. When did those slogans turn into “Govern me harder, daddy” and “Mmm, your tread tastes delicious??” See, this is a huge aspect of the “No Kings” protests that a lot of people on the right aren’t understanding. They think No Kings is about Trump personally. And no doubt, it is, to an extent. But many people are much less worried about Trump attempting to act like a King, as they are about the willingness and enthusiasm of so many people to push him along that way. The folks who encourage him to rule with unlimited power. And on the flip side of the coin, the folks who just allow it. The apathetic and resigned people (i.e. Lord Ratner), who can be just as dangerous as the enthusiastic ones because they just rollover and go along to get along. Go to one of his rallies. Listen to his cabinet members speak. Watch interviews with supporters. These people like when he deploys the military in our own cities. They cheer when government buildings and airports are re-named and giant portraits are hung up. They salivate when ICE murders American civilians and are granted “absolute immunity.” They applaud when he pardons criminal political allies as a reward for loyalty. They like that he starts wars without consulting congress. They don’t care if he tries to bypass the Constitution with executive order, or if he ignores legislative mandates. He tells his voters, straight to their faces, that he’s now doing the total opposite of his core campaign promises…..and they lap it up and ask for seconds. He tells them the Epstein list is a hoax and that he's going to solve the national debt, and they believe him. Religious leaders routinely say he’s divinely ordained or some sort of “chosen vessel.” And “Trump 2028” hats and shirts and flags were on sale at CPAC. This shit is disgusting and cult-like and anti-American. No Kings is as much about that aspect of today's politics as it is about simply "Orange Man Bad."

The whole thing reads like a cliffhanger going into a commercial break on a reality TV show. Not surprising, since we foolishly elected a reality TV star to the highest office in the land. When people are overwhelmed or uncomfortable, they retreat to what they know and like. That’s the basis of Trump’s obsession with his stupid ballroom. He spent his life building gaudy hotels, towers, and casinos. He knows that world and likes it. So it’s no surprise that while our servicemembers are out risking their lives, and while everyday Americans are struggling because he couldn’t deliver on his bullshit campaign promises, you find him aboard AF1 awkwardly holding up poster boards of the ballroom and bragging about how ornate the columns will be. This is no different. He knows and likes reality TV. He knows the hallmark is manufacturing suspense. “WHO KNOWS?” he writes. ….GMAFB. Spoiler alert, he (and all key cabinet members) know. ….But that’s boring. Reality TV is about keeping people guessing. Create drama and keep them coming back for more. That’s how Trump treats Americans….as an audience. For his ego and amusement. Tonight he’ll say they struck a deal. “A beautiful tremendous deal.” “At levels no one’s seen before.” He’ll pretend that the Iranian’s came groveling at his feet and begging him. ….“Isn’t he so strong and tough?!” the MAGApotamian’s will exclaim. And for 3 more years, we’re going to have to listen to another one of his bullshit “Sir” stories (….. that’s where he goes into an alternate voice, either wispy or rough, pretending to be someone else, and says “…. They asked me, they said ‘sir,….sir, we want…..’” blah blah blah….. it’s obviously fabricated nonsense virtually every time.) The next 24 hours will be no different. Just more embarrassment, shame, and discredit for our country.

Absolute lunacy. Oh sorry, I forgot. It’s just “mean tweets.”

The plan straight from the horses mouth: Mar 3: "We won the war." Mar 7: "We defeated Iran." Mar 8: "We must attack Iran." Mar 9: "The war is ending almost completely, and very beautifully." Mar 11: “You never like to say too ⁠early you won. We won. In the first hour it was over.” Mar 12: "We did win, but we haven't won completely yet." Mar 13: "We won the war." Mar 14: "Please help us." Mar 15: "If you don't help us, I will certainly remember it." Mar 16: "Actually, we don't need any help at all." Mar 16: "I was just testing to see who's listening to me." Mar 16: "If NATO doesn't help, they will suffer something very bad." Mar 17: "We neither need nor want NATO's help." Mar 17: "I don't need Congressional approval to withdraw from NATO." Mar 18: "Our allies must cooperate in reopening the Strait of Hormuz." Mar 19: "US allies need to get a grip - step up and help open the Strait of Hormuz." Mar 20: "NATO are cowards." Mar 21: "The Strait of Hormuz must be protected by the countries that use it. We don't use it, we don't need to open it." Mar 22: "This is the last time. I will give Iran 48 hours. Open the strait" Mar 22: "Iran is Dead" Mar 23: "We had very good and productive talks with Iran." Mar 24: "We’re making progress." Mar 24: "[Iran] gave us a present and the ⁠present arrived today, and it was a very big present, worth a tremendous amount of money." Mar 25: “They gave us a present and the present arrived today. And it was a very big present worth a tremendous amount of money. I’m not going to tell you what that present is, but it was a very significant prize.” Mar 26: "Make a deal, or we’ll just keep blowing them away." Mar 27: "We don’t have to be there for NATO." Mar 28: No major quote Mar 29: Claimed talks were progressing Mar 30: "Open the Strait of Hormuz immediately, or face devastating consequences." Mar 31: Claimed a deal was "very close" and that Iran would "do the right thing" Apr 1: "We’ll see what happens very soon." Apr 2: Repeated that a deal was likely, while warning of continued strikes if not Apr 3: "Something big is going to happen." Apr 4: Said Iran must comply "immediately" or face further consequences. Apr 5: "Open the in' Strait, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in Hell - JUST WATCH! Praise be to Allah." Apr 6: "The entire country can be taken out in one night, and that night might be tomorrow night." Apr 6: "They made a proposal, and it's a significant proposal. It's a significant step. It's not good enough...they have to do certain things. They know that, they've been negotiating I think in good faith." Apr 7: "A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. I don’t want that ‌to ⁠happen, but it probably will." April 7: Iran cuts all diplomatic channels.

TACO strikes again. What a shocker. Just like the good ol' days on The Apprentice.

You don't live and let live with enemies. You destroy them. One of the things that makes the United States stand above the rest is that we have historically defined our enemies only as those who seek to do us harm, rather than those who have land or resources we want. The enemies we tolerate are the ones we cannot easily destroy. We're pretending like China and Russia aren't enemies, using the justification that they don't want to do us harm, they only want power within their own region. I think we know that's not true, but at least it's plausible. With Iran, only the most fearful, ignorant analysis of reality can lead you to believe they aren't our enemy. It would be bad enough to have them chanting death to America at every turn, but they put their money where their mouth is. For decades. You don't make deals with that type of enemy unless you have no other choice. We are the United States. And the last month is shown we definitely have another choice. The administration has been relatively consistent on what we're doing there. Right now there's no "deal," and everyone posting the Iranian demands are shoving their heads so far up their ass to pretend this represents some sort of settled failure, that I'm surprised they aren't being canceled for wearing blackface. Trump has given a lot of "two week warnings." Often it's a TACO. Other times worldwide tariffs jump 10x, or the president of a country gets kidnapped, or nuclear facilities get bombed, or the entire country gets bombed. I think what we're seeing here is more about personality differences than anything else. Some people are words focused, other people are deeds focused. The group here hyperventilating about Trump day in and day out are repeating how "we" keep downplaying how Trump is making everything worse. But they won't stop shouting long enough to understand that we don't think it's worse, because we aren't comparing it to a hypothetical world that no longer exists. Our European allies aren't allies anymore. Just like NATO isn't an alliance anymore, it's a European insurance policy and the Europeans haven't been paying their premiums. Free trade hasn't been free for a long time, and what we got in exchange for a bunch of cheap electronics is a national defense nightmare (the loss of manufacturing) and a social catastrophe (the destruction of the middle class). Immigrants don't make America, America. Values do, and we're no longer assimilating those values into immigrant populations. Politicians aren't respectable war veterans anymore, they're profit-seeking sociopaths. Then when they are confronted with the concept of trade-offs, we get: oh you're just saying the ends justify the means!! Well, yeah, sometimes. When the "means" are ugly and undignified hyperbole and rhetoric, sure. If the "means" become war crimes or racial discrimination or some other horrible act, then the "ends" will no longer justify the means. I don't like the term TDS which is why I never use it. More accurate would be "Trump Fixation Syndrome" where the detractors can't look past the man long enough to intelligently argue the policy. That's not unreasonable, he's insane and becoming more insane. Maybe his brain is finally going through the same old-man collapse that Biden experienced shortly into his term. We'll see. But the Biden administration didn't do anything that broke our democracy, even with an invalid at the helm. So far this administration hasn't done anything to break our democracy either, even with a madman at the helm. Alternatively, we could have had a moron who couldn't string 10 words together despite decades of political experience. Bad choices all around. But comparing the policy preferences of the three (Biden, Harris, Trump) both domestically and internationally, it's not even close for me.

Nah - I will compare it to the plan that destroyed their Air Force, their Navy and 90% of their ballistic missile production capability.