Rusty Pipes

Not a slam in anyway here... but isn't it too late at that point? The part of being a leader/supervisor where you fight for feedback is a big problem today. Sometimes the "why" is out of the control of the supervisor/commander, but in a perfect situation no boss should be surprised when one of their folks tells them they are leaving. The shame of it is if someone tells you why and there was something that could have been done to have kept them in. Again, not saying you weren't doing the right thing... I think there is an atmosphere today where line guys don't want to provide feedback to their bosses for fear of either "showing their cards" or being seen as a trouble maker.

I have no issues whatsoever with AAD being required prior to O-5 IPZ... same for IDE. I think it should be Y/N for both though... in other words remove all dates associated with it. I actually think that AAD should not appear anywhere on your records prior to pinning on O-4 unless you were specifically sent to school by the AF to do your job (AFIT, USAFA Academic Instructor, etc). If Lt Jenkins wants to get his AAD to get it out of the way then more power to him, but he shouldn't be "rewarded" for it... especially if it means that others need to "pick up the slack". Lt Jenkins may be a single FAIP at Laughlin with a hell of a lot more time to knock it out than Lt Smith who is married with a 4 month old flying MC-130s 300+ days a year in places that most people have never heard of. Jenkins having that box checked does not make him a better leader than Smith... right now that is how it is seen.

Its not about getting more people promoted, its about making sure we get the right people promoted. Under the current system we are literally deciding who will become O-5s and especially Commanders when they are Lts because when you are using "when did you check your box" as a discriminator that is when you need to start checking those boxes. I have talked to countless O-6/O-7s (granted about 5 yrs ago) who have said that when they were Majors they didn't know if they even wanted to stay in, didn't really know what school was about, was just flying the line and doing their job, never even knew what a School Select was until they told them they were a Select, etc... and they became Wing CCs and Generals. Liquid actually said those same things in this thread. I think that is great, but under our current system that is literally impossible to do today unless you get multiple DFCs or something extreme along those lines. When I fly with that young co-pilot who doesn't know his Ops Limits, but is taking 2 Masters classes at a time it pisses me off because he is obviously putting his AAD check ahead of being an expert at his job (again, not his fault... I blame his Commanders for that). But that co-pilot is eventually going to be an Aircraft Commander as a young Capt who is going to be more worried about what box he needs to check and still won't be an expert at his job! Now I have an Aircraft Commander AND a co-pilot who are literally putting flying combat missions #2 behind queep. I'm not sure the folks wearing Stars really understand that is what is happening... and it is of their own creation. Liquid talked about providing feedback to bosses and I agree there is a difference between whining and bitching, there just seems to be very little room for innovation or new ideas with the new mold of "leaders" in our Officer corps today. The unspoken feedback being given to the boss by the Lt who puts the AAD first over job performance is that they are willing to fall in line while the kid who does it in reverse is seen as some sort of "trouble maker". If you want to say you need an AAD to make O-5 then I'm completely onboard with that, but we need to pull out of this senseless box checking nose dive that we are in where that has somehow become associated with how well someone can lead.

It wouldn't actually be an APZ guy getting promoted over an IPZ guy. Remember that I'm saying it would be modeled after the 3 year School look window which would mean that your IPZ would be that 3 year window. When someone gets picked up for school on their third look it isn't seen as him taking away the school slot of someone who is on their first look. You would become APZ if you didn't get picked up in that window and then either be continued or not, but you certainly couldn't complain if you had 3 legit looks and didn't make it. Right now they pretend you have 3 looks before being continued or not, but even Liquid admits that unless you have a DP APZ (far more rare than being picked up BPZ) that your records aren't even really being considered... if they even look at them at all. I think this would also give us more developed FGOs as well as (just as important) better mentorship from those in leadership positions. "Hey Maj, you didn't get picked up on this look, but here are some of the things I think you can work on that I think might get you there on the next round." Right now you might get a "best guess" reason from some guy down at AFPC or your Boss as to why you didn't make it, but its after the fact and too late to do anything about it at that point. I'm not seeing the major downside to this process. The guys who are going to get promoted early are still going to get promoted early (you could even look at a 1 year BPZ for your true fast burners which would still line up with timing they have now). They did away with the BPZ to O-4 years ago because too many guys were just box checking to try to get there (it was good that they did away with it), but then they eventually slid the boards 2 years to the left which essentially means that not only is everyone "BPZ to Maj" now but EVERYONE needs to box check just to get there. There were a few true fast burners back then who could check the right boxes and still hack the mission (they were your 1% that got BPZ), but obviously everyone isn't talented enough to pull that off which is why the guys today are being forced to choose one or the other. Keep in mind... if you get a guy who got picked up on his second or third look for O-4/O-5 he is actually pinning on the same time as he would have under the promotion system that was in place less than 10 yrs ago. I'd rather have an FGO who is wearing that rank because he/she has the actual experience and right knowledge set... not just because they checked the AAD/SOS box earlier than the other guy (because that is what we are getting now which does not equal leadership). I'll even take it one step further... the only School "selects" are the BPZ guys (1%) and everyone else needs to compete in the School window. If what Liquid is saying is true and only School selects are actually going to be going for the next few years (no candidates), you are going to see a low in morale/motivation among your FGOs (anyone who is not a select) like you have never seen. Maybe it is just the competitive nature in me, but I sure as hell was motivated and worked a lot harder in UPT knowing that I was competing with the whole class to ensure I had a choice when track select and assignment night came around. If you told everyone what their assignment was going to be on day one of UPT I don't think we would have nearly as good pilots in the Air Force as we do now... just my opinion. Edit: I will now wait for Liquid to explain why this idea would never work and for Chang to tell me to stop complaining

Liquid actually explains things with logic which is why he has actually gained some credibility here even if many don't agree with his (Big Blue's) philosophy... You pretty much lost all credibility out of the chute with your "you should be thankful just to be here" and "If you don't like it, do us all a favor and quit" philosophy.

I'm guessing I would see it along the lines of how the school selection process works. I would agree that your top 25% will always stand out just as your bottom 5-10% would. The numbers in between are all relatively close to each other. How many times have you seen a Major/Maj (S) who just seemed like your average (or maybe even below average) officer hit a stride and go from someone that the Boss didn't really know to a guy he ends up pushing for School... and he gets it on his 3rd look? I've seen it happen lots of times. Maybe I'm just not getting the "Big Picture", but if you are going to go through all the trouble of writing a PRF, pulling the records, convening a Board... at least take a look at the thing and score it. If you do and realize that the guy who is APZ scored higher than the IPZ would you disqualify the APZ just because he is a year older? That is what essentially happens now when the APZ P doesn't even get his PRF looked at. Maybe there is solid reasoning as to why that should happen, I just haven't been able to hear anyone come out with it. Some of those 157 who were booted were really sharp dudes who may have just been victims of bad timing and what is basically a one look promotion system. I'm not sure if the kind of system I'm talking about would have helped my two buds who got booted get O-5, but they are both O-5s now in their respective ANG/RES units which are pretty competitive... so they weren't the passed over useless guys that many see the APZ types as.

1) Actually APZ guys always have a shot to compete for DPs in future years with IPZ guys... nobody was saying they couldn't 2) I agreed with Liquid that a guy who didn't get a DP IPZ will probably not beat out someone for a DP APZ 3) Liquid agreed that an APZ with a P is essentially not really even looked at which is why I asked why we practiced bleeding with APZ PRFs with Ps 4) I then suggested that instead of having a single year IPZ that it be a window like School looks, possibly 2-3 yrs so those in the grey area that we all agreed were about the same didn't fall between the cracks because of something as simple as changing Board criteria or Staff opportunities that were out of the individual's control. I have an idea... instead of talking about my head spinning from discussions with Liquid who actually seems to know what he is talking about, maybe you should take your head out of your ass and go troll somewhere else! Airman Chang... You're dismissed!

I think that there is going to be quite the demand for military trained pilots. I wonder if all the current co-pilots will be grandfathered in? I'm guessing they would have to be. Anyone see an effective date for this?

Nope, still missing my point... all I'm saying is to let the APZ guy with a P compete with an IPZ guy with a P (in that 3 year window for example). Why do you say the senior rater is saying the IPZ guy is more worthy? I'm saying to let the 2002 guy compete with the 2003 guy... score them both out and the best record wins. Are you saying that you think it is better to have the 2003 guy promoted over the 2002 guy with a far better score sheet just because he was comissioned 6 months later? How does that make sense to anyone? What I'm saying is that we would not have those guys fall through the cracks if your IPZ was a 2-3 year window instead of just a one time look.

BTW, it was just released today that the FAA will be requiring Commercial Pilots to have 1500 hrs and an ATP... but military pilots only need 750 hrs. Not good for the Embry Riddle kid about to graduate, but with the 65 yr old crowd starting to retire at the Majors and this new ATP requirement it looks like the military pilot hitting his ADSC might have some considerable options when weighing whether to study for his ATP or his AAD. https://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-10/pilot-qualifications-raised-by-u-s-faa-to-improve-safety.html

You are completely missing my point... If Maj Snuffy didn't get a DP on his IPZ he probably won't get one APZ. But if he doesn't get a DP APZ then you aren't even looking at it! I am saying that in reality the APZ guys aren't even being allowed to compete with the IPZ Ps even though with the Board's scoring process they could possibly well excede the cut.

Ummm... yeah I'd say that a 0% selection rate for all APZ with a P for the last several O-4/O-5 Boards are a pretty good indication of that! OK... 4. Joint job - GCC, OSD, JS, Inter-agency... Yes (if so, where?) or No 5. HQs job- HAF, MAJCOM... Yes (if so, where?) or No 6. IDE either in-residence or correspondence... Yes (which one?) or No 7. Masters degree... Yes or No (he's a dirtbag... DNP) Better? Maj Snuffy had no Staff when his PRF was written at Shaw 6 months ago so got zero credit for #4-5... he now works for Adm Jenkins or SES Wilson at TRANSCOM on their Staff in an O-5 billet, but the 4 Star has to give all his DPs to his School Grads IPZ (understandable). If the Board actually scored his PRF he would be well above the line, but since he is an APZ with a P they don't waste their time even though by their own scoring criteria he is clearly above many they do select for promotion. How does this make sense? This is a serious question... with the Board criteria changing every year why does a 3 year window for School work and not for promotion? Congress mandates how many officers we are allowed to have in each rank, but it doesn't mandate that we need to have X amount of rank per year group, right? I get it that Maj Snuffy isn't the typical case, but I think we miss out on a lot of good talent by the way we do things. When the young guy sitting on the fence with his ADSC coming up looks at how Maj Snuffy is treated it makes their "on the fence" decision pretty easy if they have options.

Not at all... what I'm saying is that while the overall Board process looks at the whole record, #4-7 of the list you posted from the CSAF are Y/N questions. So when Maj Snuffy has his PRF written at Shaw AFB and then immediately PCSs to TRANSCOM/CENTCOM/PACOM the "points" given to him for Staff credit are zero when in reality he "checked the box" for what the CSAF says is his #4 on his list. With the current system he is just SOL apparently because since he is APZ on the next round in reality his PRF isn't really even being looked at, but if you use whatever standard point system the board is using his "score" would now be well above the cut off line for that APZ Board (assuming he was AAD/PME complete). Unless the several O-6s and GOs that I have talked to who sat on these Boards have all lied to me, they said that an APZ with a P is not something they spent time on and they are not in the same pile as the IPZ PRFs with a P... so essentially it doesn't matter what they would "score" at that Board, they aren't realistically even being considered. Am I wrong?

Curious as to the circumstances in which this happened. I have a friend who was at the Pentagon and had 3 guys in the office and his boss somehow had 3 DPs to give (one guy was APZ and got picked up for O-5 with the DP). Maybe I haven't been in situations where it was an option, but I've never seen anyone APZ given a DP when there was an eligible IPZ (at a Wing or on Staff). In your cases did you have multiple IPZ candidates (I'm not talking Article 15 or DUI types) that you could have given the DP to and chose the APZ guy for it?

So then why practice bleeding on APZ PRFs? If an APZ PRF with a P has a 0% promotion rate then why bother going through the motions and wasting everyone's time and money for zero results? Does this mean officers are only qualified as promotable leaders based on the instructions given to the particular board they meet? I guess when the CSAF says he is looking for XYZ criteria for promotion he means he is only looking for those qualities in that particular year group... and even if that criteria changes 6 months later now making them more qualified than a good percentage of the next group they are basically told "sorry, thanks for playing... you had your chance!" Good luck keeping those guys motivated. Even worse... you give them a kick square in the junk by showing them the door after 15 yrs of service! And we wonder why there is a morale problem in the AF? You get three looks to compete for school, but just one for promotion... do we want to promote our best officers or not?

Maybe Liquid can answer this question for me or maybe Herk... Why is it that with our promotion system we have essentially limited ourselves to giving our officers only one shot at getting promoted? Yes, for O-5 and O-6 there is the possibility of getting promoted below the zone, but that is an approximate 1% chance. For everyone else you essentially have your IPZ look and that's it. The reason I ask this is because I had two good friends who were part of the 157 that were shown the door at 15 years when they were non-continued after being passed over for O-5. The reason they were both given for being passed over IPZ was because they had not had a Staff job... of course they were both told this when the results came out 6 months after PCSing to Staff. Both were late rated pilots (prior Nav/WSO) who were told by AFPC that they needed two Ops tours as pilots before they could go to Staff, so them even going to Staff before they did was not even an option. I have heard the anecdotal story of someone getting promoted APZ, but those are almost too rare to even consider mentioning. Every O-6 and above that I have asked about this topic have said that essentially when they have the Boards there are 4 piles of PRFs... DPs BPZ, DPs, Ps IPZ, and then the Above PRFs that essentially are there to rest coffee on. If the AF is going to give every Wing CC or equivalent on Staff 1 BPZ DP that doesn't count against the IPZ DPs then why would they also not give them a DP APZ that doesn't count against the IPZ DPs that is their option whether they want to use it or not? Every time Board results come out you see the names of those who didn't make it and most of those names won't surprise anyone, but there is always that one or maybe even two folks that even the Wing CC is scratching their head surprised that Maj Snuffy didn't make the cut. I get that "timing is everything", but giving Wing CC's or those at Staff this option may be a way to keep some good leaders that if they PCS'd or got commissioned 3 months earlier or later would have made the cut. BTW... both my buds mentioned above who were part of that 157 are working full time Res and Guard and are now O-5s. All boxes checked for their IPZ look on their PRFs (except Staff, although when the actual board met they were both at Staff), IP/EP types with competitive strats and both had the "Super P... If I had one more DP to give"... just to give some background.

I don't think it is a matter of being the best pilot, it matters what you are focusing on. If you don't know your Ops Limits or weather mins on a flight on the deployment and when you land you spend your free time working on your AAD then it is a problem. The bigger problem is if your supervisors are saying that if you had to pick which one to work on then you should work on your AAD. Are Commanders coming straight out and saying this... doubtful. Is that the message they are sending on a daily basis... absolutely! Getting the point yet, Liquid? I'm certainly not saying that you did this... I'll take your word that you did the opposite which is great. It is the message that is getting to the young pups... intentional or not; it is coming from their bosses and from the looks of the past 42 pages of this thread it certainly isn't MWS specific.

I was drinking my 7th third beer at the MUFF one night with a Navy and Marine O-6 who were both Wing CC equivalents at home, but deployed to the CAOC (both flyers, both great dudes) who were "venting" to me about the young AF guys they had working for them. It completely blew them away that these guys were on a "combat" deployment and they were working on PME and AADs... neither of them could even comprehend it. They were asking me about it in the hopes of calling BS on these guys who as young Capts and Lts told them they needed to get their AADs and SOS done in cor or they wouldn't get promoted and that being deployed was the easiest time for them to do it... not only that, doing it while deployed was highly encouraged by their Commanders. When I confirmed what their guys told them and that it was what was being pushed by Commanders the response from the Marine O-6 was, "No offense, but shit like that is why nobody takes you guys too seriously from the other services. If one of my Marine Capt pilots working for me was taking Masters classes over here I'd kick his ass because that's not why he is here!"

I think you missed his point. His Commander (and the majority I have had share this stance) implied or straight out stated that the box checking that everyone keeps referring to is what makes you a good officer... or more along the lines that you cannot be a good officer unless you check these boxes (and now unless you check them as quickly as possible). I've heard the same speech from multiple Commanders about "if you had to choose one, you should be a good officer"... not sure if that came from the same speech by a speaker in Polifka or something, but to a crew force that has been inundated with this constant barrage (AAD, PME in Cor, etc) for the past 10+ years it directly translates to "box checking is more important than being good at your job". That may or may not be the message that is intended, but I can promise you that is the message that is being received loud and clear by your crew force from those in leadership positions in most cases.

Working in both the Wing and OG front office for several PRF periods I never once saw a Commander ask for or review an FEF. I'm assuming the Sq CC knew who was good/bad in the jet, but I don't know if it was taken into consideration in their rack and stack when pushed to the OG. I don't think it needs to necessarily be the number one factor, but do think your performance in your primary duty (no matter what your AFSC) should have significant influence on a Commander's evaluation. On the other hand I did sit in a Training Review Board at the Squadron when deciding upgrades where 10 out of 10 IP/EP types in the room vehemently argued against an individual being sent to IP school (including the individual's own spouse) and after the meeting the Sq CC told the Chief of Training to put the individual in the IP slot because their PRF was coming up and they needed to be an IP for their Board. Unfortunately the individual went to IP school as an AC and returned as a co-pilot with 2 Q-3s in their FEF. I can't speak for other airframes, but this crew position/upgrade box check was/is quite common in my MWS. This was obviously an extreme case that didn't go well, but we seem to be getting extremely mixed messages where on one hand pilots are being told that their performance in the jet is not necessarily the highest priority, yet we associate crew position/status (IP/EP, 4 Ship Flight Lead, etc) with PRFs.

Maybe that put things in overdrive, but my example of LTs asking about testing centers and wifi as well as the AFPC stoplight charts about the timeliness of box checking being briefed by Wing CCs were both before the RIF and VSP debacle. I think this box checking push from above really went hyper-insane back in 2006-2007 (?) when they unmasked the AAD for the O-4 Board. I know back in 2003 when I showed up at my Sq the first question my Sq CC asked me as part of my inprocessing "meet the commander" checklist was if my Masters was done and if I had SOS done in correspondence (he didn't have a copy of my surf in front of him)... so this isn't a recent thing, we have a whole generation of folks who don't know any different.

Ummm... maybe this comes from the fact that Wing CC's are giving official AFPC briefings telling the entire Officer Corps that particular boxes need to be checked and that how quickly you check these boxes has a direct correlation to your career progress? Maybe because this box checking mentality is ingrained in our Officers from day one by every one of their supervisors and commanders? I hate to break this to you Liquid, but the AF you went through as an Lt and Capt is nothing like the AF these kids are going through. A few years ago our Squadron was getting ready to deploy and more than half of the Sq had never deployed before (lots of new Lts). My Sq CC had asked me to have a Q&A with all the first timers after a morning Roll Call because I had been deployed to this location several times. I'm not exaggerating... the first 7 questions were about the testing center, how many days a week could you take SOS tests, was there Wifi in the rooms or did you need to go to the BX area to work on their Masters stuff, etc! Not a single question asking about flying combat missions, typical sorties, standard locations we flew to there, average mission duration or typical duty days. I finally stopped them at the 7th question and said, "You guys know you're going to go fly combat missions in a combat zone, right?!?" I was pissed, but you know what... it wasn't their fault. Do you know who's fault it was, Liquid? It was you and your fellow Commander's fault! They weren't just making this shit up about SOS and AADs... you and your fellow Commanders are the ones who made this their number one priority and you (Big Blue leadership) continue to do so. I wish your typical co-pilot knew more about the hydraulic system than they do about the promotion system... maybe you can do something to change that, I really hope you can!

I'm not sure where this logic comes from. I understand that the take numbers may be down, but in theory the take rate should be higher shouldn't it be? If guys dropped papers to get out between last Oct and when the ACP came out then I'm guessing there is a pretty good chance those guys were getting out either way (maybe a few exceptions). So if you take the folks who are left over and the take rate is low then that should be very telling I would think. Maybe my logic is off, but I'm guessing that if you have someone who is eligible for the Bonus and doesn't take it there is a good chance they have an exit strategy already and are playing with house money at that point... now they have options.

That is great and I applaud you for doing that... if more Commanders were willing to do that then this thread would probably be 2-3 pages long.

No, I'm saying that much of what is being said at the Wing level and below is either not being heard or is being ignored at the highest levels. Like anyone else, even the 4 BPZ super fast burning Wing CC only gets one "but, Sir". They eventually have to fall in line or they are done... it is those at the very top who decide what "falling in line" looks like, so unless they buy off on it nothing will change. EDIT: Or they hear what is being said, but feel their view is better. It may be, but lots of Generals have also had what they thought was the best idea that didn't work out so well when all was said and done.