Motofalcon

You jest, but I have heard more than one person from AFPC talk about reducing the 2MDS vol 1 hours requirement to be "experienced", that way the experienced/inexperienced ratio numbers look better... So it may not be a huge stretch to change pilot rest requirements when home station on training sorties (i.e. Not deployed). If stop loss is on the table, I'm sure other crazy ideas are as well.

Dude, we get it - you hate the President, and you are throwing major bait for us to jump on your bandwagon and blame him for every problem under the sun. Nobody is taking it; we are focused on slightly more specific Air Force problems. Just STFU already.

1) As long as it doesn't make them disagree with their boss, because only yes men get promoted in today's AF. I don't ever expect a commander to help me unless it also helps him, and that is from experience, not just "sour grapes". 2) Or you could be great at your job and still get a raw deal because AFPCs two most used lines are "timing is everything" and "needs of the Air Force". Which when you dissect it means "performance is nothing, you will take what we give you, and your whole life is a game of chance every 3 years". I still can't believe that YOU don't believe US. Do you notice how every single person on this thread is saying the same things? QOL(not money), cut the BS/non primary duty stuff, etc? And do you notice how damn near every thread on this board devolves into these same lamentations? Go look at them - almost any one of them can be re-titled "What is wrong with the Air Force in regards to..." And they all have the same problems! Do you think we just sit around and have secret meetings to make sure we all complain about the same stuff? No! It's because it is reality and we are all dealing with it! But you refuse to believe it. CSAF said morale is pretty darn good, so it must be true. These guys in the squadrons are the minority - just a few "sour grapes". What is so damn frustrating is I constantly hear leaders say, "if you complain/highlight a problem, give me a solution". Well, everybody is providing you the same solutions. Maybe not the "how" to implement the solutions, but that's why you have whatever rank you do - your job is to figure out how to implement the fix. And guess what - stop loss isn't a fix. It's emergency triage that has it's time and place. This isn't it, and it will backfire terribly. And if you are a troll, well done. You got me fired up - and maybe you don't actually matter/have power, but that doesn't make what I'm saying invalid.

Sorry for the delay, wanted to get the truth data from afpc before posting it here. Your two year Time On Station clock starts the day you in process your new base. So you are eligible to pcs away two years after you inprocess. Your ADSC (3 years minus 1 day) starts at the completion of your training (PIT, IFF UI). So quick example - you show up to Sheppard 15 June 2016, and you finish your IFF UI upgrade on 20 Oct 2016. You can PCS again/are eligible to be non-vol'ed on 15 June 2018, but you are committed until 19 Oct 2019. The PCS timelines/ADSCs and ADSCs from training are concurrent but different. I realize this probably belongs in the adsc thread, not the WIC thread, so I'll post anything more I hear over there.

Just like ThreeHoler said - no ADSC for the requal, just ADSC for the PCS. And if you want to fight something/have questions, the fastest way to get an answer is open a case in MyPers, because they email you back quicker than trying to get ahold of them on the phone.

Short answer - You are eligible to be back on the VML and can move after 2 years time on station. The IFF IP training doesn't affect that. Long answer - you are eligible to be somewhere new - "boots on the ground" - after you have 2 years time on station at your current base. So let's say you show up to SPS 15 Oct this year - you can PCS out of there 15 Oct 2018. Your training to become an IFF IP doesn't affect that. If you were doing something like go through training at Randolph, then go to Sheppard, then it would be two years after showing up to Sheppard. But all the reg/afpc uses is time on station, not time on station as a full up contributor to the sq ops (i.e. Done with all upgrades/training). Basically, once you have two years time on station they can move you, and your CC can't do anything about it (this is how they non-vol people to Korea when needed). However, in the above example, they would have to wait to send you to a T-X course until Oct 2018; if you wanted to go to the T-X in August for an October report date at your new base, your commander would have to give permission for you to go to the T-X before your 2 year TOS. Recommendation: make sure your CC and the functional know of your desires to get back to the jet. Don't start your first meeting with your boss by saying, "Hi, I'm Reticulous, and I want to get out of here ASAP", but work hard, establish yourself as "a good one" and then gently bring up the fact that you didn't want to leave the greatest fighter ever made and want to go back at the earliest opportunity. And like I said, let the functional know, because after 2 years they can pull you back and your CC can't stop them.

Yeah, I love how afpc says they "don't negotiate with terrorists" whenever anyone puts something like that on their adp. It's not that we are terrorists, we are giving you an accurate picture to work with. We have determined that if we get an assignment below a certain cut line, it is not worth it for us to stay. You would think afpc would appreciate having such direct and blunt Intel, but then they have always been more of a shell-game group of scheisters who don't like being forced to make tough decisions - just handing out raw deals (sorry, bad timing!) so we have to make tough decisions...

Perfect example of "timing is everything" - I bet if you looked one vml in either direction you'd find someone who meets the requirements to get that assignment, but instead of getting that person, afpc will just get a waiver to whatever that requirement is, send you some one who shouldn't and/or doesn't want to be there, and then you have to pay the price for the porch's mismanagement (non-student lines, etc). This probably belongs in the "what's wrong with the AF thread" but basically this "timing is everything" and AFPC's zero flexibility/ability to forecast personnel needs is slowly(?) breaking the Air Force.

Well, I hope so - his data is about 72 hours old, and it pisses me off because I was an IP and wanted to go there, but couldn't because filling a PIT slot was higher priority than a test sq job and/or I wasn't good enough/didn't get the push from my leadership (it doesn't hurt my feelings to get honest feedback, but my leadership said I was phenomenal all the way up until the day I walked out the door, so who knows what the truth is). However, to then see that they are getting a non-IP that they didn't interview/request... It's mainly just my envy speaking, but damn is it frustrating. So I hope it is rectified.

1) Fair enough. I wasn't trying to sound combative to your point either, just adding my 2 cents to the conversation 2) Agreed. 3) Agree to disagree. I know it theoretically *can* happen, I just don't think it does nearly as much as it used to. Which I blame squarely on AFPC's inability to be flexible and give outsiders (i.e. CAF OGs and sq/ccs) any bit of power or influence. They porch is scrounging (reference all the posts above about dudes 7-day opting) and therefore are in triage mode and don't do a lot of the bro-network wheeling and dealing they used to.

Not to be a jerk, but do YOU know how the vml process has been working lately? I am good bros with the viper functional, and after many conversations with him, here is some truth data/points to ponder: In the most recent (summer) VML of 120+ viper drivers, there was ONE ops to ops assignment. Some B-course, some AGRS, and a lot of UPT/PIT/IFF, but only one CAF to CAF assignment. I will quote the functional here: "My job is to get you in a fighter squadron, get you experienced, and then get you out to make room for the next crop of FNGs". This summer the porch will deal with A1's "grand solution" to the viper driver shortage - 69+ b course grads. By the end of the summer. New b-coursers can't go to Holloman, can't teach UPT/IFF, or do any of the other 11F required jobs - they can only go to a CAF unit until they are experienced. So that doesn't leave a whole lot of CAF slots for dudes who want to stay - no matter what your OG says. You are just a number and as soon as you are experienced, you get to fill all those other jobs. Now you would say "Well your OG can fight to get you a spot at Holloman or maybe at 422/85 TES as a stepping stone to WIC" to which I would normally agree, however, filling test billets are lower priority than filling UPT/IFF/PIT/B course etc. They are also being really stupid about the b course spots - they RARELY send viper guys to Luke because Luke is shutting down (eg 2 dudes in the past year and a half). But they won't send you to Holloman because its not big enough yet, and two vmls ago they sent 25 dudes there, so it's all full. On the other hand, talking to a bro at the 85 TES, they just got a new inbound who isn't even an IP. The 85th didn't ask for him, and don't know why a non-IP was sent there, but now they have to deal with it (ie take away test sorties so they can put him through an IPUG). Why do I say this? Because it demonstrates how f*cked the situation is. I will quote the functional again - "Timing is everything, and it will always trump performance". So yeah, maybe this kid does have hands of gold, and maybe his OG did fight for him, but if the spots aren't there (hint, they aren't) there isn't a damn thing anybody can do about it. Or maybe his OG did fight for him for that ONE ops assignment, or that ONE 85 TES job, and he lost out to some other dude. Doesn't mean he isn't good enough for WIC, maybe his CC just isn't good at fighting for him (a situation I think most here have seen, directly or indirectly). No reason to sh*t on him. Oh and all you CAF viper units out there, expect to have an inexperienced ratio approaching 80% by the end of the year - don't worry, AFPC knows about it, they just don't care enough to change their ways. TL;DR - AFPC is f*cked more than most people realize, and it is definitely going to derail some people's career aspirations through no fault of their own.

For all I have seen - yes. Sorry. Based on the age/TIS limit (I don't know what it is, but I know it occurs sometime near the end of your second tour, 6-8 years TIS I think) you won't have time to get back to the Viper, become an IP, and become one the wing's top IPs in time to go to WIC. It's kind of like being a FAIP - no matter the order, an AETC tour kind of ruins your chances. Not to say weirder things haven't happened, and maybe you'll get a waiver, etc, etc, but I think the door is 99.69% closed. I have seen faips go to wic in other airframes (namely C-models) but I think that is because they have a less diverse mission set, so they can get better faster and make the TIS cutoff. I don't think I've ever seen someone in your situation go (CAF-AETC-CAF); even if you volunteer to get back to the viper right at your 2-year point, because after 2 years you won't be quite as good as you were, strictly based on continuity. However, if you still want it, what you should do is 1-make sure your leadership at UPT and the functional at the porch know of your desire to go back to the jet asap (right at your 2 year time on station point) 2-bust your hump when you do go back to the CAF and let your FS leadership know you want to go to WIC and even if you get no for an answer a couple times, stick with it. If none of that works, you can always try to get into a guard/reserve unit who will send you to wic. For what I know, because they are paying for the course, they can send who they want and Big Blue's age/TIS restrictions do not apply. Good luck, and I'll see you at PIT...(unless you are going back to SPS)

Here's the short answer as given to me by afpc when I fought it: If you are getting an initial qual in an airframe, you pick up a 3-year adsc, no matter if it takes you past your ten-year UPT commitment. They cite note 1c, even if you bring up note 1b. This applies beyond just AETC; if you're a c-17 guy switching to the kc-10? Three years. A-10 guy switching to the viper? 3 years. There are always exceptions and drug deals to be made with afpc, but the standing rule is initial qual in a new airframe = 3 years adsc. Other responses: If you were a FAIP and go back to the same airframe (i.e. T-6 FAIP, now going to teach t-6s again, either at UPT or PIT) you do not incur additional adsc, because you were already qualified in that airframe (your new form 8s will say "RQ" on them because you are re-qual'ing). If (like me) you were a t-6 FAIP and get an assignment to teach t-38s, you get the full 3 year adsc because you have never been qualified in that airframe before. The same would happen if you were a t-6 FAIP and then chosen to teach t-1s, or go to IFF. The only gray area would be if you were a t-38 FAIP, went to the CAF, and came back to teach IFF; they would probably consider that a requal (even though the missions are different, the instm/qual check rides are the same) so you wouldn't get any additional adsc. Also, in my 6.9 years of being an FEF monitor, I have never seen a form 8 from IFF. Back in the day (20+ years ago) guys got an instm/qual in the 38 when they finished UPT, but no student has ever gotten a form 8 in IFF in the past two decades. Bottom line - the reg is written poorly, and it allows afpc to pick and choose which note they want to follow (in order to make you stay longer), even though the notes are contradictory to each other.

Most recent example I have is from 2012 - guy went from Ramstein - SOS - Eglin. Because it was a tdy enroute from oconus to conus, his wife/kids/pets got to accompany him to maxwell, and he got a tlf instead of a hotel room (and yes, all the per diem for being accompanied as well). It is actually the best situation, because you get a tlf, you can have your unaccompanied baggage and your vehicle shipped to you at Altus, and your household goods go straight to Fairchild, where they *should* beat you there and be waiting for you once you arrive. As long as you have pcs orders with the tdy on them, and her name is on the orders as well, she gets to go with you. *edit - I've got a different bro who did a (I think) similar thing last summer - I'll ask him and see if he's got any gouge. **update - said bro did go tdy enroute to sos with his wife and kids, and everything I said above was accurate.

The only one I know of was about 6-9 years ago - prior army helo WO, but crossed into the blue and became a normal active duty 2lt in the AF. The AF didn't care about his prior time, he went through the full UPT syll, and in the end got FAIPed (because he was still a Lt - they won't faip a late rated Capt, because they care about rank/hurting your career, but they don't care about age). He then went on to fly Vipers. I can PM you his contact info if you'd like. I'll ask the AETC nerds around here if anything has changed since then. I think the reason the other cases mentioned above are different (abbreviated syllabi, etc) is because of the guard/reserve aspect. If you want to compete for an active duty fighter, you have to compete on the same playing field as every other active duty UPT stud.

Per the CSAFs rated manning plan, 11Fs are not allowed to go to T-6s except for a case by case basis (the only one I've seen is a command opportunity) . Even back when I was in t-37 UPT (9 years ago) the only 11Fs were one flight cc, one reservist, and the commander. Now that very few 11Fs are even going to -38s, all the 11Bs are going to the -38, which leaves nothing but 11Ms to teach phase 2. Not a bad thing, they can teach it fine, however the lack of being able to talk to the different communities prior to track select is a disservice.

The one I referenced here and during my debate with AFPC is the one on e-pubs, dated 30 April 2012. So Viperstud you may have been operating under the old reg, or right when the new one came out so the personnelists didn't fully know the changes and operated under the old guidance.

Shack.

Yes, taking a pedestrian all the way up to being solo on your wing is very rewarding and a lot of fun, but the flip side of that RMO is when 2 days after track select your new class shows up and they don't know what initial is, how to start the plane, how to do a walk around.... That transition from training day 69 back to day 1 was always painful as an IP...

*pile on the the block 16 info: I was a previous t-6 FAIP, and while I had left AETC, I had never stopped flying before getting asssigned to the t-38. I tried to twist that to say I had meant the letter of the law - I had transitioned between AETC non-MWS aircraft without a break in flying (I had never stopped flying, even though the tour in the middle was operational) - but the intent is switching trainer aircraft back to back, so they shot me down there as well.

I was in a similar situation (only 2 years left on UPT 10-yr commitment) when I got the assignment to PIT - my options were to accept a 3-yr ADSC or 7-day opt. I cited note 1b, they replied with note 1c (because I had never been -38 qualed before) and I took the 3 years (instead of what I assume would be something like an ALO in Djibouti for my remaining 2 years...)

It doesn't matter what you flew in UPT, because you were never officially qual'ed in that aircraft (no form 8). So AFPC views PIT as an initial qual, which means you pick up the full 3 years. As far as block 16, read a little closer - it says "...(no) break in flying between AETC non-MWS aircraft..." The way I (and other personnel it's I've talked to) read this is if you switch trainer airframes within AETC (i.e., switch from t-38 to t-6 for a command opportunity, etc) then you don't pick up a 3 year adsc, even if it is an initial qual. There still is the problem with notes 1b and 1c being contradictory (my situation, posted earlier), but basically, if you are getting an initial qual (i.e. Your form 8 says "INIT" on it) you will pick up a 3 year adsc, even if that takes you past your 10 year UPT commitment. I don't agree with it, but when I tried to fight it, I lost. YMMV.

You guys see this? Welsh is getting the 2015 Great American Patriot Award. Previous awardees include Gen Schwartz...but also a Marine general and a MoH recipient. I have never heard of this award so I have no idea if it is something big or another award for participating. Not to take away from his 30+ years of service, but it seems a bit ridiculous, given all the bad/sub-stellar press lately (we are short people across the board right after massive cuts, "you are always on parade, even your private phone conversations", the F-35 debacle, et al) but maybe my view is a bit skewed from reading JQP. Or maybe this is like that order of the sword or whatever the Chiefs give the CSAF - they did it once, so now they do it every time? https://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/637365/welsh-named-2015-great-american-patriot-award-recipient.aspx

Pile-on to the sweet Wild Weasel watch - Bremont is making them this year to celebrate the 50 year anniversary of the Wild Weasel program (1965-2015). That's why there is the subdued 0 by the 5, making the 50. Also, they have a different one for each Weasel aircraft (F-100, -105, -4, -16), in case any of you old crusties want one with your beloved Hun, Thud, or Phantom on it. Finally, these watches are only available to Wild Weasel pilots, EWOs, and other folks associated with the program. You have to contact Bremont (or me or sqwatch to get Bremont's contact info) and they will verify that you qualify then allow you to order. Cost is around $3k (about 1/2 off) FILO!

Update from this years application - my time in service waiver was not approved, so my app didn't make it to the board. I only bring it up because I think this confirms my "no news is good news" hunch on the waivers - the last two years I never heard anything back (about the waivers or application), this year I got an email about 3 weeks after the app due date/2 weeks before the board meeting saying my waiver had not been approved. Figured I'd pass the info on so the next round of applicants will know their waivers get approved or not. Also, my waiver for TIS was approved last year, which was for only a couple months (I think it its 9yr3mo at start date, and I would have been around 9yr7mo at start date, something like that). So, if you are close, I think they will allow it, but if you are over a year beyond the requirement (I'm 05 year group) the door seems pretty closed. Apply early, apply often....