Chuck17

Why not? We could use a few more opinions.... There IS a trend. The trend is that in a few cases, dudes disregarded the rules for whatever reasons and got burned. Some died. Show me one period of aviation history where that HASN'T happened. There's a reason rules are rules is all I'm saying. The vast majority of experienced aviators, and dare I say officers, know that there is wiggle room in any set of rules giving operators more than enough room to maneuver or hang yourself. The choice is ultimately up to the operator. Ive flown with guys who knew every goddamned line of the V3 by heart. They could quote the 11-202 like scripture. And when they came upon a decision or mission that required them to THINK rather than recite, to decide how far to BFM the rules... they froze. Literally, stopped thinking - inability to make a decision. Rules are necessary. And strict adherence to regulation is not practical in all cases. If you want to be an automaton that doesn't have to think, this job ain't for you. Check that - you could always be a ground safety officer (don't get me started) or a SNCO on shoe/sock/lightbelt patrol at a deployed location earning your Bronze Star... Bottom line - there are times when rules don't apply and you have to manage the risk/reward benefit (thats what they sent you to all that training for): when lives are on the line, combat, emergency, etc. Airshows and flybys ain't on the list. Chuck

MC-12 bills get paid by all types in PACAF, including former F-15 and current F-22 types. Chuck

YGBSM. This happens in cycles. The cycle has already gone around once. Every time another report comes out things got MORE conservative. Then people relax. The same thing will happen on a larger scale within the heavy world: standard "OH FUCK" knee-jerk reaction from AMC will put the ka-bash on things for a while. Then AMC will write the no-shit rules for everyone to follow with regards to demo teams, remove ambiguity, and establish East and West Coast Demos. The Reserves will get one, and so will PACAF... but it will follow a period of over-conservationism that, in the end, was brought on by a culture of "mission first, at any cost." The program was delegated, didn't get oversight, and they got burned. These dudes packed it in because they didn't follow the rules. I'm sure there will be lack of oversight findings as well that will trickle down to OG and OGV types getting moved on to other duties. It fucking sucks. Im witness to it firsthand, every single day. But I wont stand for guys saying "kill the demo" or that this was somehow to blame on how we currently employ the aircraft, be it in training or in real-world ops. It's not the case. This was an anomaly. If it wasn't, then it would have happened before... This discussion has already occurred. Tactics/Training isn't to blame - stop trying. The same guys blaming this on tactics and training are the same guys who will be whaling when the next mass airdrop gets lit up over JATWISH DZ because they were holding each others cocks doing a SKE pass.... Sound tactics and training are inherently safe. What happened at Elmendorf wasn't. You're right about one thing GoAround, it's not a fighter plane and we (myself included) are NOT fighter pilots. But if you think flying this bird is about one to a full stop, haulin' shit and chewin' cud, you're way off. But then again, Ive been out of AMC for almost 4 years learning how the rest of the USAF thinks, plans and fights. What do I know...? Chuck

1. That question is addressed in both reports... 2. Your second question is the real issue. The issue of oversight shows that the buck stops somewhere. My issue, and the reason I'm engaging you guys on this, is that there is a defined process that has determined who was at fault. If the AF decides that any of the leadership has to go, so be it. We ALL serve at the behest of our commanders. But every un-informed bag-wearer on the block calling for blood and the replacement of all leadership en-mass is simply reactionary. I have pointed out several of the issues being dealt with right now - information that was in both reports, but information that dudes would rather not read, preferring instead to place blame on an entire leadership chain or on the squadron or base as a whole. There is much more to this matter than is present in the AIB or SIB. There is a process. It's working. But wholesale leadership changes aren't the answer... just the tradition. Chuck

Opinions vary. Id like to know how far you think it should go? Who should get the axe? Sq/CC? After all it was his people, right? But which Sq/CC? If you read the report you will note that it was an ANG training line, with 3 out of 4 ANG crewmembers. So should the ANG Sq/CC get the axe? Or the active duty Sq/CC? Or both? What about OGV? OGV was the OPR for the airshow program. Do you can the Chief of OGV? What if Chief of OGV at Elmendorf is a fighter guy? Do you fire him? Or do you limit it to the C-17 Stan-Eval pilot at OGV? Do you then fire the active duty Chief of C-17 Stan-Eval because the ANG one is dead? How much is enough? Lets see how deep this rabbit hole goes... Do you fire the OG/CC? After all, OGV works for him. Oh wait, there are TWO OG/CC's involved! Do you fire the ANG one too? Is it a matter of oversight of programs or of iron? The OG was scheduled to fly on this very flight and jumped off when an F-22 took the barrier that afternoon. How close of a call was that?! But that's lack of oversight I guess huh? The guy's not dead, so lets find him at fault and fire him too... It was a USAF 3rd Wing asset that was destroyed... so do you fire the Active Duty Wg/CC? Or do you fire both the ANG Wg/CC and the Active Duty one? One is a BGen, the other just got notified of his pending promotion. Does that factor in? Go further... The Wg had an ASEV last year. Was the Airshow program inspected? Regardless of the answer to that question, do you fire the inspectors at PACAF and AMC? How much blood is enough? I had a discussion this week that I ended abruptly with an old friend of mine over this matter. He is a SE dude at a MAF superbase and is of the opinion that the entire leadership chain needs to be removed. Really? Should we expect that? How far is the USAF going to take it? Don't lose the forest for the trees... and don't think for a minute that this couldn't happen at any MAF base or otherwise. History has proven that not to be the case. C17

There was no hard over or uncommanded deflection. Upon realizing what was happening, the MP swapped from full right rudder to full left and aft left stick to try and recover. If you can figure out the "why?" on either of those happenings, you'd answer the million dollar question we've been wrestling with for months up here. It would have taken THOUSANDS of feet required to recover the jet. Chuck

Nothing has happened to anyone in the wing... yet. Standing by for that... Chuck

Excellent! Well played... Chuck

No. Bong flew the Eagle in the Dozen and the 19th first. Chuck

There is no longer any doubt in my mind that there will be a stop-loss in the next 2 years, right as I am primed to hit the ADSC. No bonus. Indentured servitude in on the horizon gents. Id keep hacking away at your masters and the PME if I were you. I sat next to a Delta exec on the way down to Orlando a few weeks ago. 1000 pilots. Thats what Delta alone is hiring starting in 16 months. No shit. "Got USAF Multi-engine jet time? Know how to cross the North Atlantic? Been around the world? Youre hired... Telephone interview. We dont need a resume, just send us your SURF. And Im not talking Delta Connection flying RJs - You'll fly for the major - for Delta." - that was this dude's exact quote. (They know about SURFs?) Bottomline is this - the airlines are going into panic mode with the amount of dudes they have to replace due to mandatory retirement age and the new rules for crewrest from the FAA. You may make a little less, but you'll have a job. More: UPS and FedEX - 400 pilots each. All of this starts in 2012. Good luck dudes. The grass is always greener, but be ready to be stop-loss'd. Chuck

BTDT Gents :) https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/2581-performance-report-oprepr-info/page__st__40 and here: https://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?/topic/16294-i-hate-reflective-belts/page__st__400

All AK-assigned aircrew complete USAF Arctic Survival Training at Eielson AFB, AK as part of their certification process to fly up here - if youre stationed up here in a flying unit, you go to the course, no matter what MAJCOM youre in. It's a week-long gentlemens course that I found to be fantastic training, WAY better than standard Survival School and you find that survival in the arctic isnt all that hard if you know a thing or two. It was -30F when I was in the field. RIP Jeff, I will remember you brother... Him Him. Chuck

Some woman up north (North of Fairbanks) who owns a dogsled team and gets pissed when the fighters boom the shit outta her property - its up in the middle of nowhere, not far from Chena Hot Springs, AK in the Yukon MOA. Hence the "Chena Dog Lady"... "The sonic booms are disturbing my dogs!" "Are they American aircraft, ma'am, that are causing the problems?" "Yes." "You're welcome." Chuck

Ah yes... the Stop Loss... But the 10 year commitment and UAV/RPA slots wont be the only draw. Dont forget we are about 17-24 months away from the start of a major boom in airline hiring as a go-zillion 65 year old airline pilots are forced outta the cockpit starting in 2012. Talked at length on a flight with a Delta guy this weekend. They are talking over 1000 hires for Delta alone in the coming 2-3 years. If you've got multi-engine time/IP/EP its gonna be tough to pass on that 365/RPA/MC-12 to Balad when the airlines are taking all comers [/sarcasm] Im sure it wont be as grand as the forecast but thats a factor nonetheless. Stop Loss for all my friends! Chuck

I didnt say it was a bad thing bro. Just an observation. It's one of the hardest things to get past in Integration - the different languages each community uses. I dont read to much into your post. It was spot on. And an opportunity to learn for dudes cross-community. Sorry if I came off as a dick - it was a feeble attempt to prove a point. Offense was not my intent at all... And yes, it was an effort to back this thread away from the abyss... Chuck

And the opportunity to learn shows itself! I love baseops for this... The irony is not lost on me that a CAF guy was out acronym'd by a MAF guy... And the reaction you had BQZip was exactly how 90% of the MAF guys react when it happens - "does not compute = not important to me = scoff." CAF guys talk like this all the time, leaving their MAF bros in the dust during briefings, standups, integration exercises, etc. Ive seen CAF GO's stop a briefing because the dude on stage was out-abbreviating the leadership. Hilarious, but also lame. Good lesson on know your audience - its tough to not talk down to one ground and not pander to another. ERO - Engine Running Offload CP - Command Post MOG - Max on Ground (a factor in how much cargo can be downloaded and processed at the same time, but also of physical ramps space - i.e. MOG is different for C-5s and C-130s) ATOC - Air Terminal Operations Center - the AMC guys who do cargo transfer Chuck

You know what pisses me off? MATH. And not just math but math used in error, to attempt to prove a point. 69% of all statistics are made up on the spot (/sarcasm). Always, always, always do your homework. Now, ASS-uming active duty numbers only: FROM THE USAF WEBSITE OBTAINED HERE: https://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/airforcepersonnelstatistics.asp 329,638 individuals are on active duty: 66,201 officers (just a hair over 20%) and 263,437 enlisted personnel (just shy of 80%). The Air Force has 14,083 pilots, 4,074 navigators, 1,426 air battle managers in the grade of 0-5 and below. That means ACTIVE DUTY PILOTS (O-5 and below) make up 4% of the total active duty force, and just a bit over 21% of the USAF Officer force. From Jango's example: 2% of the USAF active duty pilot force is 282 shitbag pilots who fuck it up for the rest of us on a daily basis. And thats being generous since you underestimated the number of pilots in the USAF by a factor of 1319 pilots (that one took me a few mins to gonkulate). We can expand that to include all aircrew if you want. My minor point is don't throw bullshit numbers around unless you have the right bullshit numbers - someone will always check. Dont give the bastards the satisfaction of making you look like more of an ass by using your own bullshit numbers against you to make you look silly (or more correct as the case may be); always be right. Google is a bitch, math is too. Thats just good baseops.net forum advice - take it or leave it, there is no quarter given here. Do the math on other career fields - 4% of the total force and 21% of the officer aint nothing to scoff at. When you add the additional rated aircrew types out there, thats a significant portion of the USAF officer force (about 30%) thats rated, running ops world-wide, flying and hacking the mission - dare I say a VAST majority over nonrated career fields in any other AFSC group of three you can find (See what I did there Jango - I speculated, leaving an opening for you to do your homework and prove me wrong). THOSE NUMBERS, THE JOBS THEY DO EVERYDAY ARE WHY AIRCREW RUN THE USAF. This isnt the US Medical Force or the US Finance Force or the US Space Force (yet). If you want to work where bus drivers to run a company, go work for the City Bus company or Laidlaw. Same goes for any other AFSC that SUPPORTS flying "the mission" everyone always talks about... its what you do. Everyone has/had choices. Be proud of yours. There are some dudes running trans, PJs, Cops, EOD that I cant hold a candle to as far as sacrifice and bravery goes. Never. Wont even try. It still doesnt change the fact that aircrew should be in charge of an air force - a fact we learned and relearned time and again since the first battle in the air. I dont know what you guys are bitching about, this thread entertains the shit outta me. .02 cents all around! Chuck

This is the difference right here... I would actually rather have a guy that USES HIS BRAIN to know when to break the rules and when not to. There is a difference. Ive flown with guys who knew every rule in the book, backwards and front - and they couldnt make a decision to save their goddamned lives. Honestly! If it wasnt in the book, it simply could NOT BE DONE. I say THATS BULLSHIT. There IS a difference - know when and where to break the rules; it matters - and anyone worth a shit to their organization knows how to BFM the rules. Im not saying break rules as a matter of policy - just USE YOUR BRAIN! Some other unfortunate souls define themselves by the rules. That is MORE dangerous where I live. Thats how you end up not able to make a decision that could save your life or your crews. Period. That being said, what I do aint what everyone does (i.e. Im not a nuke guy). However, if you define yourself by your rules or the rules of your job, youre only going to go so far - eventually you will run into a situation not defined by your rules. What then? Question the answers as a matter of policy. Dont be insubordinate, just use your brain. If something makes no sense or a process sucks, change it, ignore it or find a better way to do it. Dont defend idiocy. Dont "think outside the box", instead question if there even is a box! Just because youre an enlisted guy doesnt mean youre a robot dude! Chuck

Standing by for the line about how "if you dont follow the rules about sunglasses and PT shirt-tuck-ins, you wont follow the rules when it counts," because apparently every aircrew member with an unzipped flight suit pocket and a friday nametag or pen-patch is without-a-doubt going to be behind the next Mai-Lai massacre... in 3...2....1... Chuck

That sucks. If you have wings, you need to at the very least be able to READ this report. That being said, the AIB is due out in the next 1-2 weeks. Be thankful you didnt/couldnt watch the HD video with the CVR and animation... Chuck

That woman will make you a bloody marry that will melt your face and save your life all at once. Chuck

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the unfortunate." - Gen Curtis LeMay Chuck

Sinise was at Elmendorf for a concert and was asked to help dedicate the SITKA 43 memorial by leadership. He was happy to oblige. Chuck

FWIW, for the C-17 discussion: The stick shaker in the -17 is NOT a warning of impending stall... It is an indicator of APPROACH TO STALL. Ever fly low level when it's windy in mountainous terrain? The stick shaker kicks every now and again, all the time. Im not stalling, Im going 330 kts straight and level... Furthermore, Doing 160 kts at 300', configured and pulling in a circle so tiny your about to fly up you own asshole: Done it, no stick shaker. The bottom line: the airshow profile and others that are similar (WIC performance sorties in early phases of training) are flown all the time with no ill effects... the airshow profile is still being flown DESPITE what happened a month ago. The jet performs amazingly. That tells me its safe enough; time will tell us all what really happened. Though these wounds are still fresh gents, FIDO. Chuck

Youre not. You just dont know what youre talking about. In Feb 2009 we went to India for a demo airshow, a year + later, Boeing went to fly Indian pilots. Now they are under contract for C-17s. Both our statements are valid, but Boeing got beat to the punch my friend. Chuck