AnimalMother

While I share your sentiments, I actually have not tracked down mishap rates for recent years. If my brain hasnt completely checked out for the day, I do believe the historical class A rate for the USAF is ~2 per 100k flight hours and has been that way since about the 1970s. Not sure where we're at over the last two or three years, but I can list quite a few class As just off the top of my head, as I'm sure many of us can.

I don't care where Obama was during the bin laden raid, I'm still going to vote for him in 2016.

Debatable.

Given those restrictions, exactly what information were you hoping to learn/discuss on this forum?

Let's not give a free pass here to the AFSOC leadership who set up the deal while buying up tons of cheap Clovis property via proxy before the news dropped. I think we all know who we're talking about. As for the 15 U-28 folks dropping paper, yup.

Terrible article.

Lets make one thing clear here, the bonus is not stupid-sized, it's the same bonus, just over a longer period. All smoke and mirrors man. I got a 1 million dollar bonus from the Air Force when I signed up, they just spread it out over 12 years. Yup, the issue here is all about money, it has nothing to do with quality of life, one does not equal the other.

I sincerely hope that you are correct sir.

If I knew how and cared enough I would repost the clip of Michael Jackson eating the popcorn, shit never gets old.

Yup. I've only seen 2 dudes actually escape AFSOC in nearly 7 years. Not saying there aren't more, and I can't speak to the RPA side of the house, but like I said, I only know of 2. I do know, however, that a lot of guys have tried. I hope guys are getting more opportunities to move on, especially from RPAs, but I can tell you that AFSOC will not let you go without a serious fight.

Sounds insane doesn't it? But look at the statistics and the results. This shit is epidemic. Why? Probably because we have unwittingly instsitutonalized a culture in which this type of feedback is not valid. I have had a lot of commanders in my short time in teh Air Force, and I mean a disproportionately high number. Only 1 has directly asked me (and other dudes in the squadron) for honest feedback and input. And, i only felt both comfortable and effective at bringing serious concerns to one. It can be hard to give when solicited, but nearly impossible to do so unilaterally. Part of it is human nature, part of it is concern for career (which is also human nature), but at the end of the day, that dude got shown the door rather quickly. If we really think this is valuable, then we need to motivate leadership to seek (and provide!) this type of feedback. I have seen one seek it, are any providing it up where you live liquid? And I mean really providing it. And, just fyi, Historically, there have been three options when junior leaders engage in disagreements with more senior leaders; either the junior officer resigns in protest ( if he has that luxury), is fired or otherwise removed from his job (effectively ending his career), or is expected to execute himself due to the humility of failure and insult (this would be somewhat anachronistic if we saw it today). Leaders aren't getting this feedback because they aren't promoting an environment in which this type of feedback is valued. Sure you have the occasional rogue wave who steps up up, but it usually ends with figurative seppuku. It also needs to be the right person with the proper motivation. If you open up to CSAF, for example, about some shit that's f'd, it sounds like he'd genuinely listen and respect your pov. If I did it, he would certainly temper my assertions with the fact that his son is probably older than I am and and teh fact that I have no PME in res and am just finishing up my masters now; and then probably eviscerate me. //sarcasm. The point is, it may seem easy from one standpoint, but the nuances of the entire process make it much more challenging. Liquid, you have opened up a channel to receive this feedback, (maybe not personally) in a way that bypasses most of these difficulties. I hope you have manged to figure a way to do this at the office, and more importantly, I hope you are able to propagate it (or at least some of the valuable info) to the rest of the force. We receive the behaviors that we reward, even if its a behavior that we don't think we are rewarding.

Can't tell you if/how that data is being tracked, but apparently, leadership response was along the lines of "well, we'll just plan for slightly higher attrition." This type of thing doesn't seem to really get their attention. Only when the #1 or #2 dude in the wing drops paper do they seem to make an effort to convince them to stay. I think they see it as an insult to the invitation to the cult of the anointed.

It's not just that guys are being told that its "up or out." The young guys are being inundated with this stuff from the get go. This is what they are being told are the keys to Air Force success. Many sq and wing level leadership highly value this stuff, and it makes sense that this is what the young guys learn. I have run into many lieutenants who have started their masters degrees before they even showed up for FTU. My old cc kicked me in the balls as an lt when I asked him if I should be worried about advanced education. Nowadays, I think it's quite the opposite. This is why policy pushers come up short so often, they are unable to accurately predict the second and third order effects of their decisions. In many cases, it is incredibly difficult, if not impossible to accurately determine how far the ripples will reach, which often leads to more reactionary policies and more unanticipated effects and so on and so forth.

That would apply to what? 1, maybe 2 guys that I know of. AFSOC is a selfish child. "If that happens"? Still holding on to hope are we? Just let it go bro, let it go.

One of my favorite quotes of all time. Say what you will about Gen Powell, but he is a sharp dude. My interpretation of this is that leadership is entirely about people. Everyone loves to talk mission mission mission, and that shit is absolutely important, but as a leader, your job is your people. Take care of them, give them direction, enable them to perform the mission, and it will get done. Focus on your people, and they will succeed in the mission. It kills me to see how readily the Air Force accepts losing quality people. Found out today that another 10 dudes have dropped paper in the last month or two...from a single squadron.

Yup. Vetter, solid question. Liquid, solid answer, thanks for the honesty. Acknowledging that we have some challenges ahead is the first step to solving them. I'm seriously tired of hearing that the Air Force shits roses, cuz it just ain't true. Where do we go from here? I dunno, but maybe once we get past all the mudslinging we can actually figure out the most sensible path forward--maybe. I seriously hope that you can bring some common sense into the mix, because I haven't seen a lot of it lately. Believe it or not, this forum offers great insight into the status of the operational force, despite its propensity for bellicosity. I hope you are able to filter it and generate some solid input for the special Ed kids up on the hill, just saying.

Holy testicles batman. Let's cut the bullshit then. We have some fundamental disagreements, no big deal. But good lord, sack the ###### up and put your money where your mouth is. You want us out? Deal. I will be much obliged to you if you would sign my waiver personally. You make it happen on your end, and you'll have my separation papers tomorrow. But don't sit here and vilify the people who put up the ######ing numbers that got you promoted in the first place and then string them along. As for the sexual assault witchhunt, if you think it starts with pictures and songs, I do feel sorry for you. This is a leadership issue. 1. Leaders need to step up and foster an environment in which this shit is handled appropriately. And, I can promise you that such is not the case, despite your boisterous but effectually flacid efforts. 2. Leaders need to stop deviant sexual behavior themselves if they want subordinates to follow, something about setting the example. 3. Leaders need to devote themselves to understanding the nature of this problem. Have you read the annual SAPR report and internalized key statistics from 2006-2012? Because I sure as shit did. Have you given any critical thought to how you, as a leader, can address these problems starting with the most statistically vulnerable times and situations? Because I sure as shit have. Have you discovered that the vast majority of sexual assaults occur in the Army, perpetrated by a senior male NCO against a junior enlisted female (most often between the hours of 6pm Friday and 6am Monday. Contrast this with deployed statistics which show little regard to days the week)? Have you read the Gallup poll (2010 i think but i forget off the top my head) of victims asking them which action they felt would be most effective at mitigating sexual assault? Overwhelmingly, they responded that a change in culture would be most effective. Oh wait, no they didn't, leadership enforcing standards, protecting victims, and prosecuting perpetrators was what they thought would be most effective. And by prosecuting, I mean following the law, as it was intended. You don't have the right to strip someone of their rights simply due to an accusation of sexual assault, nor does congress get to throw it's political muscle into the discussion to make itself feel better. But, that's a whole different issue So, How about for now ill just go learn up myself with that fantastic new CBT that you all feel is a suitable substitute for substantive leadership and try as hard as I can to resist the urge to sexually assault the next woman I see (that's sarcasm by the way, no need to actually send the FBI pre crime unit after me please). In the meantime, myself and several others on here are eagerly awaiting your separation approval letter via PM. Let's just leave it at that shall we?

I would have said just the opposite. Most guys I talk with want to know why Forrest Gump gets the number 1 or 2 strat, while the sharp dude with all the boxes checked gets a P. I absolutely love the idea of not promoting everyone, I think we should do more of it, but we should also consider an approach that evaluates performance and potential more thoroughly than a 60s glance and a "oh this cc wants this guy to go to joint staff, cool." And, if we're really being honest with ourselves here, who is really better for our organization, a guy who "doesn't give a shit," calls a spade a spade, and still excels at his primary job, or a guy whose concern for his own career is so acute that he turns into a dickless automaton? I never understood why we preach service before self, but spend so much time worrying about ourselves. Why the duality here? One thing is clear to me however, we (cgos and young fgos) have a very different opinion on what is happening in our Air Force than you guys do. And, maybe we don't have the "bigger picture," but that doesn't summarily invalidate the picture that we do have, nor does it automatically validate yours. I honestly hope that we can find some common ground, sooner rather than later, but I see our window of opportunity closing rapidly. Will the Air Force survive? Absolutely, but maybe not in the capacity that is truly best for our nation. Will anyone care? Maybe a select few of the anointed ones will, but they won't dare bite the hand that feeds, and most of us disposables will be long gone.

So you're saying there's a chance?!

True. So why is it so hard for leadership to be honest with us? I have significantly more respect for dudes who shoot straight rather than try to church shit up all the time. "Hey guys, Cannon is a fantastic place!" "Nope, we didn't pull any shady shit with the VSP, you guys misunderstood our intent". "We chose Cannon for the great weather and fantastic range space, shady ass politics and money grubbing had nothing to do with it." Ugh, the list goes on. As someone mentioned before, what happened to the integrity that I was brought up on? cuz it sure as shit doesn't exist in the political side of the Air Force.

So you're saying that doing this would violate a SOF truth? I know you know that we excel at that. The SOF truths are just words that AFSOC likes to throw around to make themsleves feel, well, special. similar to the "if you don't want to be here in AFSOC, then you can leave" line that I've heard from almost every commander I've served under. We say it, but at the end of the day we don't really mean it.

Eventually yes, but initially it's a loan to ourselves (US Govt)...from the people, and it doesn't come from taxes. Actually, it's not really a loan at all...

Not to derail the current discussion, but holy shit, can you tell us anything about the FY14 force shaping? ie will pilots be eligible (for real this time)? I know it's probably close hold but my inner terrets has taken over and I can't refrain from asking any longer.

"You get the behavior you reward," that pretty much explains it.

Awesome exposé brother. Big ups.