Opie

Air Force Times Article, 21 Apr 09. CSAR Airmen worried about mission "The CSAR-X program, Gates added had gotten “out of control” with requirements that did not match the high threat a helicopter faced flying 250 miles behind enemy lines to rescue a downed aircrew." "Another CSAR officer told Air Force Times, again on the condition of anonymity, that Gates is equating the mission with helicopter acquisition. There is a wide range of opinions on which helicopter is the best for CSAR, but the debate is about acquisition — not the merit of the mission." You can't help but get the feeling that AF CSAR is getting sidelined due to a failed acquisitions process rather than mission necessity.

By Michael Fabey Editor's Note: These articles are part of an exclusive series on combat, search and rescue (CSAR) that originally ran in Aerospace Daily & Defense Report in late January 2009. U.S. forces may have to reconsider the way they plan for combat, search and rescue (CSAR) missions with the advent of fifth-generation aircraft like the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Pentagon acquisition chief John Young says. “The whole conops is doubtful,” Young said in an interview with Aerospace DAILY. Indeed, he said, there are likely no existing or planned CSAR helicopter fleets – including the $15 billion CSAR-X replacement program – that would be able to conduct rescue missions in the kind of deep enemy territory missions envisioned for Raptors and JSFs, Young said. “No CSAR helicopter is going to be able to get to those regions,” he said. Range issues Even the planned upgraded CSAR helicopters have neither the range nor survivability to support the range of operations for the new-generation fighters, Young said. “If we have that situation we are going to do our best to rescue those people,” he said. “I think the V-22 could have some of the speed and range.” The V-22 was pulled from CSAR-X competition because of downwash, cost and other concerns — and Young was quick to add that he was not pushing the aircraft for the job. It may be worthwhile to look at other ways of doing the mission, he added. While the Air Force begs off any direct confrontation with Young (Aerospace DAILY, Jan. 28, 29), service officials maintain they have met all the acquisition requirements to move ahead with the CSAR-X fleet selection and eventual contract award. Young maintains that some of those requirements should have been vetted more thoroughly much earlier in the process. “You have to start further back,” he said. “Those requirements are not carved in stone, and they shouldn’t be. Program managers are not advocates for their programs. They are not used-car salespeople shilling for their programs.” Young said classified data show that dedicated Air Force CSAR aircraft have made no recent long-range rescues deep in enemy territory – the very mission CSAR-X is supposed to perform. But Air Force officials connected with CSAR acquisition and requirements maintain that dedicated CSAR fleets have been called upon numerous times for a variety of rescues, especially by sister services, and that CSAR requirements have been proven and honed through the decades. They also point out that CSAR requirements have never been based on the maximum range of other aircraft, because the distribution of a downed crew is more of a function of where U.S. forces fight than long-rage aircraft potential. B-1Bs performing missions over Afghanistan fly thousands of miles from bases through the Middle East, covered by ships and Navy helicopters until they get near their targets. Then they would come under the purview of the dedicated Air Force CSAR forces that do not operate from the same bases as the bomber. Afghanistan Young said Afghanistan is such a benign environment now that dedicated CSAR fleets would not likely be needed if a rescue was warranted. But he did acknowledge that range differential between the new and legacy fighters could be offset by mission configuration. Young’s comments continue in the same vein as thoughts he voiced at a November breakfast roundtable interview with Washington journalists, during which he questioned “the premise [that the] CSAR-X community is in desperate need.” His comments drew the ire and fire of some in the CSAR community. “I offered a view,” Young said later. “I have not directed any specific actions. I have looked at the past data, and there are only a modest number of CSAR operations, and very few at long range. Indeed, the Army and the Marine Corps largely conduct CSAR as an adjunct mission with the equipment the services own or can access.” But even some U.S. allies are wondering about the Pentagon’s commitment to CSAR. In a Sept. 4 letter to Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz, Lt. Gen. J.H. Jansen, commander of the Royal Netherlands Air Force, wrote, “I am concerned that the development of certain advanced capabilities, such as Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR) or Joint Personnel Recovery, is being hindered by a lack of focus and direction.” Jansen continued, “No European nation has the capability to autonomously plan and execute a complex CSAR mission in a high threat environment. It has been generally assumed by some that U.S. forces will meet the shortfall. However, I believe this is an unrealistic assumption, not least because of the constraints this could impose on future operational planning. Instead, we should be combining our capabilities and resources so that we can at least conduct CSAR missions in a low-medium threat environment.” https://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/sto...0CSAR%20Concept

Thanks a lot for the info rotorhead. I had another question for you guys if you don't mind. With the HH-60 being a HD/LD aircraft, how does that work with your deployments. Do you have similar rotations as the AEF assets or are your days deployed much higher and more unpredictable? How does that work? Thanks again for all the good info.

How often does the UH-1 actually participate in SAR, humanitarian relief, and other civil missions? Is it a rare occurance that af.mil just throws in there or is it a legitimate business for them? Thanks for the info!

Regarding the last post i put on here... I didn't have all the information, but thought that i did. As a result i said on the post that our cadre wasn't helping out Grandpa with his options, which was not correct. I was brash and stupid, and shouldn't have questioned something when i didn't have all the facts, and shouldn't have questioned my superiors actions even if i did. I apologize for being an idiot, and I will hopefully never be so brash in the future. [ 31. March 2005, 10:11: Message edited by: Opie ]

Mike Murph Are you the Lt Napolean from the Vance video? That was damn funny, and an excellent remake of Napolean BTW.

I checked that lind and that was the first time i've ventured over to 'the other side.' Damn.... and i thought we had some space rockets. Guess you better not 'phuck' around overthere huh?

What do helicopter pilots do during peacetime? Do they train for war fulltime, or do they do civilian rescues, counter-drug, distaster relief, etc?

Hey Ken, I posted a similar question in the military spouses forum that came up with some good responses. I would recommend taking a look at it. Goodluck...

I'm scheduled to for my MFS/FC1 at Brooks form August 15th through the 18th. In anyones experiance with the whole process does the process run according to the dates on your orders or if something bad happens can you be held up much longer than anticipated. I'm trying to get married this summer and the only weekend that really works is 21 August. I'm suppose to return from brooks on the 18th which gives me 3 days untill the wedding. If something happens and i miss my own wedding i'll be fighting brooks for a waiver for castration. Any thoughts on that?

Does anyone know much about the lifestyle of a CSAR (HH-60) pilot? Next year i'm heading off to UPT (so long as i don't do something 'too' stupid) and i've heard that you have to tell your flight commander more or less right off the bat if helos is what you want. I think flying helicopters would make for an extremely exciting career but i've heard that if you want to do helos or anything in AFSOC than not to bother trying to have a family. The dillema is that i'm getting married this fall and that would sort of be a problem with the whole family part of the equation. However the only people that have told me that are guys who are neither helo pilots or in AFSOC. Anybody in the helicopter/AFSOC side of the house have any comments about that?

I know there's been a lot of questions already about flying helicopters, but i was curious about how the lifestyle is with helo pilots. I heard that helicopter pilots as a rule of thumb don't see their families for a good 4-6 months out of the year. Is that an accurate rumor? What's your take on it? Thanks for the insight

Im sorry, i wasn't too specific with my question. i meant i had an allergic reaction and blacked out for a sec. so will that be a problem at brooks? Can i get around it? I did for my class III. sorry about the lack of clarity.

I'm heading to Brooks this August for my Class I flight physical and i was wondering about getting my eyes dilated. When i was a kid I had my eyes dilated and had a pretty uncomfortable reaction to it, things got real fuzzy and unpleasant for awhile. i took a class III physical at Luke AFB a couple years ago and the flight doc said it wasn't really a big deal. Will that still hold up at Brooks or do i need to tough it out and see what happens? Thanks for your help

I'm an AFROTC cadet graduating next may (05) and then will be heading to UPT. My girlfriend and I have been talking a lot about when is a good time for us to get hitched, and i was really curious as to how 'newly wed' life would be getting married right after commissioning and then heading to UPT. For those of you who have been through it, is it pretty hard on the spouse having your husband gone all day and then preoccupied with flying for the rest of it? If we held off for awhile can you live on base with someone without being married? Is getting married right before UPT a particularly bad time? I would really appreciate any insight you might have on the subject. Thanks a lot for you time.