hindsight2020

My advice to you as someone who spent 7 years of his life getting engineering degrees to end up a pilot is, change majors. You are on the correct train of thought by safeguarding your GPA. The AF doesn't care about technical degrees or what school they came from, they care about you having a degree and having a good GPA. As long as you have a pulse and a good GPA, categorizing as a pilot on ROTC shouldn't be a problem (medical pending of course). I'll let ya do a search on your own about how much "piloting" you'll actually do as an AF pilot in some airframes/communities. Good luck in college and whatever you end up doing.

Well, by no means I suggested one shouldn't care about the pay situation. I can vouch for how uncomfortable the thought of not having a guaranteed paycheck can be. That said, it is part of the choices one makes as a low-time guy. My heart truly goes out to the full civi types in aviation. One has to recognize just how much more favorable the pay situation is for a Guard dude, having at least SOME re-assurance that there is some way to legitimately supplement one's income while working for a regional if the need would arise to do work there (as opposed to having been born with a trust fund; not because I wouldn't take advantage of it myself if I was in such position, but because it is disingenuous to offer it up to the rest of us non-lucky f$cks as a way to making ends meet). It is pretty clear by your post that you goal is to make a living out of flying professionally. That being the case I am here to tell you that you will NOT enjoy the AD, and really are better off pursuing the Guard/Reserves. I was just having this discussion with a ACIQ guy who just got back from an ALO tour. He concedes that no way in hell he would have felt it was a good deal taking 3 years off the cockpit if he intended to shoot for airline work, and he's pretty clear (as of right now anyways) that he'll prob be a lifer, and getting yanked out of the cockpit again will proably not disuade him from finishing his 20. The point with that tale is that you have to assess what your career direction is, in your case I would STRONGLY recommend you do NOT sign that AFROTC categorization commitment, and instead pursue the Guard option. You will take a paycut from your AD 1LT types when you get back to the unit as a bum, but it doesn't mean you'll necessarily starve. As I mentioned in my previous post, worse case you have to pursue a regional airline and have to make tough decisions in terms of where to relocate to (living in domicile or living at the Guard unit) in order to make working at the regional worththile (hint: live on domicile if you can, I'm telling ya you can't afford to commute to a regional gig, Guard baby or full up civi alike). Best case, you could successfully bum (unit dependent, some are rich on mandays some not, some have other jobs the AD could give you and put you on orders for a while, some not, there's tons of iterations to bumming) to stay afloat until you can either get offered an ART job (unlikely but who knows) or in conjunction with a regional gig where u can make a comfortable living until you can get enough TPIC to make it to your preferred major. Bullet-proof plan? Hardly. BUT, it's a flying job and lifestyle, and that has a non-economic value as we previously discussed. All in all, I respect and agree that there is peace of mind in making an AD paycheck versus slugging it out as a Guard crew dog, but you're flying for a living at the end of the day in the latter, so to each their own. You also have to understand that life is not fair, there is a point where this career gets priced out for some folks. You are in your mid 30s with a family, brother you're gonna make your family go thru hell if you intend to live off the bottom pay scales of the pilot profession. For some people it became just too late. Be glad you'll be barely off college, where your expenses and family commitments allow you the flexibilty to find creative ways around regional scale FO pay, being a Guard/Reserve bubba one of the really good chips to hold, heck best-case it might allow you to forego the regionals completely. Good luck in your decision, the application process and competition sucks, the wait sucks, the not making that great steady AD paycheck sucks too, but in the end, it was the best decision career wise I could have ever made and I'm not concerned about the 3 years it took me to get in.

Well, I disagree on some of the points. What folks haven't mentioned here though is what exactly constitutes a "flying gig" in the AD. I'm here to tell you that it's not flying airplanes. The bulk of your job in the current AF is to swim through the swamp of "additional duty" jobs while you find a way to get to fly, and once you do, maxizime your time in a flying seat instead of riding passenger with the other 10 co-pilots in the jet. The only thing AD has going for it is the salary, which compared with a fresh dude at a Guard/Reserve, can't be matched on a dollar for dollar basis. But NOT the flying when compared to the RC. I can vouch for that, going on 3 months of, you guessed it, NOT flying, at the SCHOOLHOUSE for Christ Sake, sharing with my AD brethren the joys of chem gear training, getting treated like a freggin 5th grader over e-mails about who left the light at the popcorn machine on, who hasn't turned in their Self-aid Buddy care certificates yet, et al ad nauseum. Using UPT as a yardsitck for what flying is like in the AD is the biggest mistake one could make. I wouldn't mind dealing with office politics if my job was to fly airplanes as advertised, but when that's not even the case, forgive me for opting out. Diffrn' strokes... People are also not painting the complete picture talking about Palace Chase. The process is a crapshoot. AFPC has the prerrogative to NOT let you off the hook, even if you are on the up and up with the gaining Reserve Component unit. So there is a lot to be said about that. You are in a much better position to search for units NOW, and forego the commitment. I'm telling you, if what you care about is to get to FLY for a living, the Reserves and Guard is where it's at. AD is NOT about flying for a living. Also, when people here throw "a couple of years" when talking about Palace Chase, they mean the bulk of your ADSC. If you PC within your first assignment, you're not far off ahead the off-the-street Guard baby in terms of employability in civi aviation, but the guard baby sure went through much less a$$pain to be in the same spot. So let's not be disingenuous about Palace Chase; it is a reactive measure, not a proactive one. Proactive is to have done your homework before you signed the dotted line versus getting the morale beat out of you in the AD and realizing you should have gone Guard and hence decided to PC. So consider the source, and that goes for my own bias too. Lastly, the argument about regional airlines is also not being painted complete. I agree, pay at the regionals suck, but when you're a guard bum and the man day pot is running dry, you may have no choice but to work for a regional. I buy staying in the black working a regional would be highly questionable, but I want amcflyboy to expand as to why he feels it has such a predisposition to get you non-current at the unit. I haven't seen that so far. You can drop trips at the regional without much repercussion, and God knows one shouldn't feel bad about it, since they get what they pay for, so getting your 96 UTA/TP and 14 AT on the year shouldn't be a problem even working a regional. Now, what I don't have much sympathy for is the guys who decide to commute to their regional job. I understand if the wife has a good but non-replicable job and doesn't want to live in Memphis or "insert city your wife wouldn't want to get caught dead moving to", but other than that, man that's just dumb. If your unit is starving you, and you need the regional job cause you're a low-timer (for disclosure, I'm in that exact category as an off-the-street to UPT type), common sense tells you to live in domicile and commute to the Guard gig, not the other way around. But that's worst case; best case, you live at the unit and bum, and forego the regional. I just don't buy that one goes non-current at the unit by virtue of working a regional (provided you live in-domicile). As to being a broke bum, point taken. But that's an opportunity cost one evaluates for oneself. If I wanted a paycheck right NOW I would have taken that depressing engineering job I was running away from in the first place by going Guard; but it wouldn't have done squat for my career advancement in aviation. So the fallback value of a civilian career is over-rated when assessing the "value" of being a broke young Guard baby. My CFII has more fallback value than 2 engineering degrees I haven't used going on 2 years since I left school, and I doubt they would get me squat job-wise in a decade when I would be 10 years+ non-experienced in the field, and the employer is going "WTF you want a job here for? we can't use you". Also, you won't be a 1LT at the unit forever. Once you make CAPT your minimum guarantee comes to 17-20K, that's straight up min running it, so you add 20K to any civi flying job, including first year pay at most regionals, and you can get a livable wage. Upgrade to Captain at the civi job, and now you have a decent wage combined with your guard boost (however much or little you work it/the unit can afford for you). In the same 5 years you're sucking sand in you ALO tour, out of the jet , going no-shit non-current, and NOT flying. My point is let's compare apples to apples, there are reasons for the pay disparities and they have more to do with personal choices than what mother blue tells you you should do career-wise. Just some food for thought, in my experience I get AD peers at least two a week asking me "how does the Guard/Reserve work/can you hook a brother up?" and hardly folks the other way around. Man that's a lot of smart dudes who are depressingly behind the curve when it comes to having done their homework (after I advise them that as a new guy I couldn't hook my own self up if I wanted to LOL). Take my post for what it's worth (free advice) and use it to compare and contrast and come up with what works for you. Good luck brother.

Well that's what happens when you generalize, you can over-reach. By your standard, you just called out 75% of the Guard Reserve bubbas out there, and practically all the airline dudes. If it makes you feel better, the above specimen (the regional dude fishing for Guard slots) is the minority in terms of getting hired, these folks are historically behind the hiring power curve because of age mostly, as they spent their 20s toiling at the regionals, in that regard I do agree with you. I have no sympathy for the 29 year olds out there who had the "come to Jesus" moment last week, and decided their regional job, or 80K/yr desk jobs, is unfulfilling and are hustling to get someone to waive their sh$t and get in the door. it pays off to do your homework early about the Guard, and if somebody chose the RJ job because of a bad case of SJS, or you partied too hard during freshman year and last week you realized the benefit of getting the freggin' degree done and over with, then sorry you're turning 30 tomorrow. Now, that said, I'm not about to agree with you that everybody who chose not to be 'just anything' for the sake of being enlisted is somehow lacking in their character. I never considered the AD precisely because I had no interest in the qweep that is involved in being a 'pilot' in the active military, and we forego the salary for that decision. That's what being in the AFRC/ANG is about in the first place! That doesn't mean the work we pursue does not have merit, and in my experience Guard/Reserves bubbas chuckle at anything the AD folks have to say about it, since they know who the disgruntled group is. My heart goes out to the TAMI-21 crowd, but you have to do your homework in this world, I never did a day in ROTC while in college and yet I fully understood how someone can go from signing the pilot commitment to sucking sand in a non-flying billet for years, or ending up permanent partied at the Tyco airplane show. Being a crew chief has nothing to do with the self-valuation of your skills; you set the price, I knew that's what I wanted to do and busted my a$$ to get there, and in proper fairness a lot of crew chiefs got jobs at their units in my time interviewing with said units, and I also watched some of the same get non-recommended from IFF in my time at UPT, which is why I try not to generalize. Besides, I can point you to a couple million american 20-30 yo who sit at home with their 9-5 jobs and generally stay away from the fight and have no intention of giving an ounce of their time to anything military. They generally feel they're above it, and more commonly, feel economically able to avoid it. That classy bunch are yours and my neighbors btw. We're still here voluntarily, in spite of not !GASP! having been a crew chief before getting hired. Sure, there are plenty of dudes who hang around the unit when the hours are low, and min run the unit when SWA calls, some are not 100% transparent with their fellow civilian FOs at the civi gig and that's a shame, but that's the nature of the beast. Otherwise ,nominally speaking, most dudes in the Guard have an honest appreciation for the work they do, and not having enlisted to get that job generally doesn't get many people riled up. That at least has been my observation so far.

I rest my case. He wouldn't be caught dead on the technical track. I applaud your dad for being proactive and making lemonade out of a potential career pigeon-holing. But I gotta tell ya, there's a boatload of engineers who are planning to do just that: get an MBA so they can get themselves out of the technical drudge work hell, and into management, which by the way it is the only way to jump into six figure land; the technical side of engineering plateaus below six figures in most industries. Had he not pursued his MBA the tune of that song would be quite different. My point was that for the sake of being a pilot, you can see how the fallback value of the engineering degree becomes an even wider stretch, since the career skills you develop as a pilot have absolutely no correlation to most engineering jobs (unless you pitch the magic consulting gig), so by the time you would actually need the degree to save you, you'd be better off with an accounting degree, or a finance degree, or a nursing degree, or a..you catch my drift. Not that I'm saying choosing to be a pilot is that smart of a decision career-wise (airline work in the dump and such) but one has to choose some type of work that makes your life somewhat worthwhile. I was faced with that decision a couple of years ago and I still chose to become a pilot in spite of the unstable nature of such work. The prospect of starring at a CAD/CATIA scope all day made me physically sick to my stomach, I used to moonlight at a retail store catalog department part-time with a masters in engineering mind you, and as much as that job sucked I slept better at night knowing I was doing it for the money and I didn't have to take the job home with me like the aforementioned eng gig. All that said I admit that as a military pilot that decision was made easier since I would effectively be able to forego the regionals; for my fully-civilian counterparts to make the same decision would be much tougher starring at the regionals in the face. To those about to embark in the major picking deal, choose wisely, research the field, and if you're wanting to become an AF pilot, for your own sake do not fall for the "eng degree will give me an edge". Good luck

^ Hence why my sn is hindsight....In my own defense, the situation for the avg college freshman is a little more complicated, but in the end the advice above is about the honest truth. The problem is that most folks don't know what they want when they're 18 and a college freshman, and even if they said they did (I thought I did) you have NO idea what it's like to be an engineer...you really don't. Most people I know who continued to pursue the field after getting the degree did so because they were stuck, too far along the program to begin a new degree and with enough college debt they needed the d$mn job (such as myself). The other issue is this whole idea of the fallback value of the engineering degree. Let me tell you, there is none. I am in the same boat if I lose my medical clearance with an engineering degree as I would with a degree in economics. Engineering firms want recency of experience and relevance of experience. If you have none, (a pilot would have none) then you're at the start of the line, and they'd be hard pressed to give you a job, and even if you were to get it it'd be an entry-level position and a huge paycut for those getting out of the pilot game after a decade or so. Some people make it happen, those who were more interested in the tron gadgets than in being pilots, while they were pilots in the AF (there are quite a few of those, which baffles me but I'm just a dumb pilot with a smart degree lol), but most people wouldn't be able to hook that up. In the civie world, if you don't intern with some company for a while, forget it, you'll have a hell of a time getting a competitive eng job if you interview cold turkey; so that's for a recent grad, somebody trying to get back in the game as a fallback plan, *RexKWAnDO* ¡Forget it about it! Is it good general knowledge? Absolutely, plus people think you're smart in social circles, which helps in networking. Other than that, what he said, wayyyy too much BS to get to the same place, and it doesn't make you a better stick and rudder , not that all AF planes really require to have those skills to begin with..I keed I keed. Major in finance! Good luck

'astronaut' is going the way of 'fighter pilot' these days. A lot of qualified people have realized that devoting a the better part of 15 years to be competitive for an astronaut position, where years and years of training and sacrifice will culminate in maybe ONE 5-day trip in orbit and you're done (considering the end is near for the shuttle program), is not as appealing as when they thought about it when they were 5 years old, as the opportunity cost is too much. As for the alleged sabotage it doesn't surprise me. NASA is filled with thousands of people whose sole reason for being at NASA is some shattered dream of becoming an astronaut. This is not an exageration, I can't remember the amount of people I've talked to or associated myself through work or school that at one point or another tied their tenure at NASA with a "once upon a time I wanted to go for astronaut". People need to put the pipe down, working close to something to remediate the fact that you can't/aren't allowed to do that something does not make your life better, it still leaves you empty. Too much Kool-aid in that place, and ever since the crazy mallet and briefcase incident people have realized 'astronaut' is not even something to aspire to really, hence the shooting at Johnson a couple months ago and now the computer thing.

Generally speaking the answer is no. If you don't complete training you are released as your position was contingent upon successful completion of said training. To wash out academically at UPT, you have to bust three exams and be recommended for disenrollment. I think it is straight up buffonery to fail academically out of UPT but there is a weather test that a lot of people historically fail, and has put a fair share of folks over the magic number and into the elimination process. FWIW that weather test is on it's way out for that particular reason, it was a worthless test anyways. So nowadays it is even more clownish to fail academically. Medical washout is a more realistic way of disenrolling, but even then they'll work with you. The most common reason is airsickness and it has to be BAD for it to disqualify you. I've seen guys get washed back twice, sent to the voodoo doctor in SPS or RND, come back and puke their way into a freggin jet slot; T-45s for the NAVY but it was at VN in AF training, so the example stands. Others with chronic sinus problems that eventually require surgery get put on a looooong DNIF and still make it. Then again, there are others that do not, but my point is that barring a really bad problem, so long as you pace yourself and give your honest best effort you should be fine with airsickness and/or sinus problems. Hope that helps.

It's not that people don't understand where you're coming from, they do, as we all have to go through the gayness. UPT is filled with gayness, and it's a haze, period dot. Some people look at everything with a remarkable sense of stoicism, that's not a virtue as some assume, that's just their perrogative. That said, UPT has also been around for a long time and things will not change, so the best thing you can do is eat the sh$t sandwich for a year like the rest of us and pull chocks out of here as soon as one possibly can. Venting in this forum as you can see will not win you much sympathy. As it pertains to the instructors, they come (sts) in all variances. Some are great teachers, easy to fly with and supportive. Others are d$cks and have personal agendas that make one's life miserable. Again, it's all a day by day affair at UPT. The key is to hold to the finish line, then you're somewhat home free. The gayness should diminish as you go through the pipeline, some have to endure extra a$$pain (IFF and certain RTUs continue to carry UPT-like antics) but in the end it should diminish. There is a practicality to it as some posters above suggested rather callously; quite fittingly, it's the concept of a thick skin. If you have one, great, if not, it is advantageous to develop one. Again, I make a distinction between having a thick skin and being stoic, but a thick skin will be an assest to you as you move to the operational force, and it that sense DO take the previous posters' advice to heart. It's easier for me as a Reservist though, I don't have to look forward to a continuation of the gayness once I peace out of here with my middle finger out the window into the sunset, but a thick skin definitively aids in enduring the circus. As to the officership stuff, yeah I wouldn't let the airman-type slack off on common courtesies, but as an Lt I know that there are plenty of more senior NCO types that have been in the branch for much longer, and in spite of my rank I make sure and act with respect and recognition of their seniority, it's just common sense. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle about that one. Again, as a reservist, active-duty-isms roll off my back like water on a duck, but you get the jist of my point. Perception is reality at UPT. Make sure you keep these feelings as private as possible (you see the reaction you get when you go public with this), play the part, take the weekends to decompress from the gayness, and hold on 'til the finish. Wings are a great accomplishment once you get there, in spite of the training environment. Good luck.

It's called Palace Chase, but I *think* that presupposes you are already qualed and flying something. Getting hired at a ANG/Res unit is a lengthy process, so even if you started applying now you'd most likely be done with UPT before you would have an interview of any sort...unless you were local to the unit of interest and/or they knew you well and making contact was therefore a non-issue.. Also, it will be difficult to get out from the hectic year and a half UPT/FTU is to go rush units. My guess would be that you need to get done with UPT, figure out what you're going to fly, and once you're established in your assignment, hit units up until you get picked up. Of course, once you are qualified in an airframe, units that fly your particular frame will most likely be your most realistic option. If you track T-1s and your wish was to fly fighters for the Guard/Res, I don't think it's gonna happen for ya bro. The main thing here is that you need to understand that getting picked up by a Guard/Reserve unit is a fairly competitive process, more competitive than getting an active duty pilot slot (there I said it). So you should have done your homework earlier (as in, before you committed yourself to pilot training with the AD). That said, I tend to think you'll be in a more realistic position to Palace Chase once you get done with pilot and follow-on training. There are some folks in here that have palace chase'd to the Guard less than a year after completing FTU, so having to wait until your ADSC is done with is not the only way to go about (I think that had a 'pay your dues' tone to it) .....it's definitively doable early on, you just have to apply apply apply. I don't think you'll get any support from your AD chain of command though. So keep it to yourself. Good luck man.

The answer to your question is a big "it f%ckin depends". The availability of man days varies from unit to unit. Factors that play into your paycheck as a bum/trougher are the type of airframe, the general ops tempo of the individual unit, as well as the number of co's/wingmen doing the exact same thing you're doing when you get there. In general I would say you will fare well in the 135. Heavy units tend to have a healthier allocation of man days than the fighter types. As it pertains to the seasoning period (which are active duty days), it is my understanding that it used to be quite healthy, circa a year. From talking to other guard guys the number now varies. Some expect 30-45 days (myself included), others have 270 days, others a year. The longer periods tend to be quoted by the fighter guys in my recent epxerience asking this. Again, your individual unit will be the one to definitively answer that one. Now regarding pay once back in traditional status. The guarantee is 48 pay periods for UTAs (12 drills @ 4 pay periods per), 48 AFTP and your 14 AT days (15 for Guard...the f%ck I know why one day more..) Clearly this amount to roughly 9Kish for 2LT rate and clearly not enough to live on. I don't think your unit is going to set you up for that kind of expectation. You WILL make more than that. How much more depends on the factors I stated above. For 135 guys I would venture to say the biggest factor is how many other co's bumming at the time of your arrival. If you're one of the few, then there should be enough work to enable you not to have a second job. If there's a lot like you then yeah the pickings will be slim. At least you're not in a fighter unit, I would venture to say that it is a little more difficult to pick up man days in a fighter unit, plus you have to actually fly twice in one day to "double teep" (toungue n' cheek guys...:) ) that's Guard for burning two pay periods in one calendar day. At any rate, as you can see things can vary a lot. I would ask your Capt types in your unit, they're right in the thick of it and would be able to answer you fully without much reservation. I've heard of people accruing roughly 300 pay periods calling it a good year, on 2LT that's 25-27K, 1LT about 35K etc..and I think I might be low-balling the math as I don't know if I've figured the pay fractions fully. Anyways, that's like 4 man days a week averaged out.....which is a healthy amount. The Guard/Reserves (in my short experience so far) takes care of its own, you should have no problem finding work as a new co. Now, how much pay also depends on your expectations. Are you going to make 60K? I don't think so. Could you? Maybe, but at least I'm not banking on it. Are you going to make 12K? No, you're not. You'll make anywhere above 30K. Guys in my unit have made 45K the first year, it is my expectation to make a similar amount and I've been told by folks in my unit to not expect to have a second job. PROVIDED you don't have much competition from other co's in the bumming dept I also expect you to pull upwards of 35-40K your first year. After the first year things get better, the whole issue for the new guy is the 2LT pay rate, once you go up in rank the pay periods become more valuable and making your income target becomes easier. The other thing that I think you have going on in your favor is the fact that you're brand new. The unit's expectation is to have you available and working the line much more so than the seasoned guys. Most guys I know going thru training right now are all expected to be local, and so was I. So clearly there is the notion that the unit wants you and needs you there to do the one job you're supposed to be doing as a fresh co/wingman...to become proficient in your jet. I think the naysayers come with a little negative transfer from the shut up and color attitude presented to the active duty LTs, but I digress. My point is that I don't see your unit forcing you to min run as a NEW guy, which would necessitate a civilian job right off the start (the scenario Rainman alluded to). The unit expects you to be there almost full time the first year. Regarding civilian employers, once again, odds are you're better off bumming/troughing. Once you take a peek at the civilian employers you will quickly discover that aside from an airline gig, the schedules just don't jive. It is very difficult for a brand new guy to fulfill the additional commitment that entails being new at that unit and maintain the 9-5. The unit (should) understands this, which is why so many of us are "encouraged" to be locals. As I said before, all the guys going thru training with me right now are going to be locals, pretty much as condition of employment. That's not a coincidence. You WILL be flying more your first year than the average O-5 in the unit, guy who mind you, can make the same coin as you in the fraction of the pay periods. So you see there is a method to this madness after all. So let's say you're thinking on going to the regionals as a way to cover your livelihood. Chances are you WILL make more bumming than on first year FO pay. That means your opportunity cost is better to stay at the unit (and stay in town) all week than commute to sit reserve and make sh%t while the neighbor takes care of your wife/gf all week. Hell, on the -135 you are likely to match or exceed the yearly flying hours that you would on a regional, which even as SIC time it sure as hell looks better than RJ time anyways.(and the only airline that cares about 121 time notes military time in lieu of 121 so there ya go) You could even go and get hired at the regional and then go on leave as much as possible, I consider that somewhat of a dick move to your FO bretheren, and would have a hard time keeping a straight face about it, but it is an option to deal with the only hit you might be taking, which is the health care issue. So I see little reason for you to actually need a second job, other than you want a lavish lifestyle and/or already have 3-4 kids and have no choice but to suck it up chase as much coin as you can. Once you're a CAPT, and AC on that big ol'jet then your options and pay issues become exponetially alleviated. I still find it a great opportunity to have the priviledge to serve in the Guard/Reserves and most of the flak you'll catch from the AD types (the ones who object to bumming I'm referring to ONLY btw), while mostly consisting of the Guard baby name-calling and constant references to your canned training missions, have more to do with the fact that they wished they would have done their homework on the ANG/AFR a little earlier. TC :) My purely speculative $2.75 on the matter. Good luck brother

VN 07-11 Totals (AF only) 5 T-38 (2 Guard, 1 Reserve, 2 AD) 6 T-1 (1 Guard, 5 AD) 1 T-44 (1 AD) 1 UH-1 (1 AD) So, 22% 38s AD only On par with the average drop statistically, but none of the AD Toners wanted them. We had 2 guys put 44s as #1 choice. One got it, the other got Toned. Almost all the AD guys, except the helo special request and the two -44 wannabes, put T-38s first with 44s second choice. Plenty of broken hearts (and heavy drinking) to go around tonight. Apparently, CB got 5 AD 44s that nobody wanted, and there were unhappy faces down there about it. Maybe if those 44 slots would have made their way up here both classes would have been pretty content. Navy side of the house will wait till Thursday. Only two dudes had already heard back, one jets (T-45) and one helo (TH-57).

Assuming you're a resident of AZ I venture to say that it will still cost you more to go back to ERAU, hence the argument about wasting your parents' money goes out the window. Hell, my take is that you ARE wasting your parents money by going to ERAU, for the reasons I've already highlighted in my previous post. Now, the rest of your reasons are of a very personal nature and can't be weighted objectively. Personally, I don't know exactly what "I really don't think ASU is all that cool and quite honest I had more fun at riddle" means, but most people who know anything about the differences between private and public universities, small and large colleges, and have worked on both sides of the classroom (yours truly) would usually raise the BS flag about that one. I went to southern and midwestern schools, but had friends at ASU, and it really takes a social cripple to not have "fun" at ASU. But like I said, those are intangibles that cannot be objectively quantified. Who knows, some people like going to school in more homogenous (or was it hegemonized? LOL..sorry couldn't resist) demographical environment, different strokes for different folks. Regarding the transfer of credits, yeah it sucks, but it's not uncommon. Sometimes it's not that the credits don't transfer, it's that they don't transfer into the major for graduation purposes; same result but it's a distinction worth mentioning. My take on it is just like I did with my repeated courses: easy A's my man, particularly going from ERAU to ASU. You weren't having problems with your grades to begin with, so it shouldn't be a problem, go chase some poon since you won't have to go to class as often All that aside, I think you're putting wayyyy too much emphasis on how the college tab on your resume will affect your Guard chances. You can transfer 3 more times (provided your GPA doesn't get affected) and all it would transpire out of it is more stuff to bullshit about in the interview. That's it. It doesn't go into a magical secret algorithm that deducts points for number of colleges attended and partially weights on college rankings LOL. I used to be all about racking up my college profile and freggin' 2 degrees later (including a MS) I was still getting f#ck you letters. It's all about timing, luck and chemistry with the unit members that will be making the decision process. You already know my advice, but somebody who needs arm-twisting to pick ASU OVER ERAU probably has their mind made up. Good luck on whatever you do. [ 03. December 2006, 07:00: Message edited by: hindsight2020 ]

I wouldn't transfer back to ERAU. Having a degree from ERAU vs. ASU is NOT going to fundamentally re-shape your chances of getting into a Guard unit. ASU is cheaper, the quality of life is better, the academics are relatively easier, and you will get the same degree. Even if you were job hunting for a civi job I would say it's not worth spending the extra cash for, and if the contention is that you're getting a degree because it's part of what's required to get a pilot slot in the Guard (which a degree is) then even more of a moot point. stay in ASU, you're fine. During my undergraduate years I did what many of my colleagues considered to be a downward transfer of schools, based on their Kool-Aid-drinking, US News and World Report rankings carrying myopia, and I got a pilot slot anyways and the name of the colleges I attended probably contributed the least to getting accepted. If the unit is local to the area you're going to school at, it may have some significance because you might have local folks who went there, otherwise it's a wash. Stay at ASU. College Rankings are a racket, if high school students were better served by their parents and mentors at that level they would stop feeding on the lie that a degree from a perceived higher ranked school naturally flows into "making it". It doesn't. Your goal should be to get the degree in the shortest amount of time possible, maximize the GPA (easier schools happen to afford ya that too), and minimize the debt load right off college. That's your goal and in all 3 counts ASU would put you ahead. My $0.85 [ 02. December 2006, 09:22: Message edited by: hindsight2020 ]

Robes is correct. Yes, if you are Guard/Reserve and you have housing costs at your HOR (meaning you rent or own back home) and continue to carry those costs while you're at UPT, you are entitled to receive full BAH rate for your HOR location. This holds true regardless of your housing allocation status at UPT (works the same whether you occupy off-base housing or on-base housing/dorms at UPT, whether you're married or single). What this means is for guys like a buddy of mine who's from New England, he's living in the dorms here and pocketing about 1K in BAH for his HOR!$!$!$! This is a recent addendum to the rules and I think the link in the previous posting has the thread that includes the source document. I always loved the "TDY with PCS entitlements" on my UPT orders. PCS entitlements but not a PCS, TDY but no TDY entitlements lol. Total Force at work for ya.

One of the things I noticed in my joyful OTS experience was how little some AD folks knew about their fate as future AD pilots. To see them assuming all they would do as an Air Force pilot is to fly shocked me! In that sense Guard/Reserve folks have, in general, done more homework on this question than the active folks. I personally could not put up with the qweep of a 20 year stint in the active. AirGuardian and Bergman are right on the money regarding the flying time, and may I add quality, that the Reserve Component guys get. My unit in particular fills all training requirements and currencies in sorties that last half as long, and folks ready for upgrades have been run through the ringer so much so they find the schoolhouse to be more of a pain than a learning experience. All at a fraction of the cost I might add. You just can't beat it if your primary focus is flying. Of course all this is airframe dependent, but at least the flying frquency aspect of this is true for most airframes. Now, you gotta deal with the pains of finding civilian employment (unless you get lucky with an AGR or ART slot) and the scheduling conflicts and pains associated with that, but that's a choice I was willing to make in order to get in. I wouldn't have done it any differently, and judging by my AD contemporaries sitting casual for the next 12 months, asking me how's the hiring right now over my side of the fence and what the hell is Palace Chase, the morning of commissioning ceremony no less, neither would they advise me to. Different strokes for different folks.

I am in the same situation as you are right now. I am single and my g/f and her kitty (STS) will be moving with me to UPT, and the base has the same stipulation regarding living on-base as a "single" stud. The first time I asked the question I got the "you GOTTA live on-base". Let me tell you that's just the party line. My advice to you is to show up at Base Housing no earlier than your RNLT. That way you maximize your chances of showing up when they are full and/or have no way of allocating a dorm for you on the spot. That's what I will be doing anyhow. Now, all that is great and good as it pertains to BAH, but that's ALL it is about. If you get the non-avail slip great (you get BAH), if not oh well. Now, most people you'll talk to interchange the "can't" and the "not willing to". When people don't get the non-avail slip they say they "can't" live off-base only because they don't want to pay for a domicile with basic pay. And that's fine, but don't let that term-misuse confuse you. They can't restrain you from obtaining a second dwelling on your own dime if you so choose to. What happens is that you'll have a dorm, and it'll come in handy during certain points on any given week, but then you'll have your stuff and your girlfriend in the apartment off-base. Happens all the time, and I personally wouldn't recommend you go the "refuse govt. quarters" route, that WILL create paperwork and a talk with a commander. Rather, lay low, hope for a non-avail slip, but if it doesn't happen, get your apartment set up and have your dorm for show. That's how I'm going about it if I don't get my non-avail slip anyhow. Most of the time the housing office is so busy they just work with ya and a "if I don't know about it I don't care" anyways. Be cordial with the housing folks when you show up and you'd be surprised how much of a non-issue it is. I do have to say that the "needs of the Air Force" argument is bullshit. How is it advantageous to the government that I go about it like some of the married folks around here who shotgun wed the honey across the street (Air Force doesn't have shit to say about that now...) so they can solve their housing situation whereas I'm actually trying to do things the right way at my own cost? The answer is, it isn't advantageous to the government, but it IS highly hypocritical and simplistic. This "policy" is nothing more than a by-product of the cultural construct of the UPT/UNT demographics, that's all. Mother Blue assumes ALL single U(P/N)T students are little AFA graduate collegiate inmature children who horseplay during MFS at Brooks at the age of 24 (no shit, witnessed it myself), although judging by the article I just read on the latest AFA commencement AETC does have somewhat of a leg to stand on that one, sadly, but I digress. Bottom line, it's an economic thing, less people to grant BAH, period. That's why they put that economic disincentive to living off-base, and most of the kiddies bite it, which is fine if you just got off the Academy or the 3-bedroom-with-8-people-college-life, but for people in different circumstances (never mind Guard and Reserve folks, where our units are the ones paying the potential BAH no less!) they can't do anything about your choice to have additional dwelling on your own dime, other than witholding BAH, opportunity cost that you and I will agree is a non-issue given our circumstances. Hope that sheds some light into your head-scratching. Hit me up if you have any other questions. Good luck bud.

Agree with all the pros about buying a house. Like it has been stated before, at the very least you build equity, and that beats renting every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The only problem is that this market is insane and 2006 money is so inflated is not even funny. Elaborating from the example that Clearedhot provided, unfortunately a year 2006 $92,000 home is a de facto section 8 housing in most metropolitan areas, and even some medium-size cities. Consequentially, it is most likely located in a neighborhood that won't see any worthwhile appreciation, if any. Albeit speculation, I don't foresee witnessing the same kind of appreciation on my 2006 92K home in the same time period than it took to reach 300K in the 1991 92K home.Real estate investing has subsidized the lives of many of us, hell it helped put me through college, I'm just concerened my generation will not be able to enjoy the same kind of profitability our parents did, and preach about on a daily basis. (I'm in my 20s). To get a minimum threshold of "liveability" and investment soundness, one has to get into the 150-175s in small metro areas/towns, upper 200's in major metro areas, which is just not very realistic for a first-time home buyer with no previous cash base, unless you stick up grandpa for the down payment or have been saving since high school, which is about the only way to get ahead nowadays with 2006 paychecks. I concur with the condo and/or townhouse option, they tend to retain value and maintenance hassles are smaller, worthwile to rent as well, if you can find one outside the ghetto for the same price of the single-family home you were basing your budget from. Also, do not get sucked into the ARM loan crowd. These are the same folks who get anxious because they see the market "blow up" and feel they're missing out on something. Forget the doom and gloomers that say the market's bottom is gonna fall out, that probably won't happen, but a minor cool-off in the local market is enough to stop your chances of selling your property at a profit, and now you're over your head.

Does that statement and belief make you sleep better at night?

What puzzles me about this discussion is that if the merits of the T-1 vs. T-38 contention are so "relative", then why do the senior guys on here point out to the factual washout rate differential under the all-Talon system? Now, I was too young to witness the system change, but I can only infer that the presence of the T-1 is due, in part, to the need to mitigate the attrition losses under the all-Talon system. Can somebody comment on the economics of the argument? It seems to me that it would be more expensive to maintain 3 airframes rather than 2. I also venture to suggest that perhaps the cargo/airlift/tanker FTUs can and probably do a good enough job of imparting whatever CRM edge a T-38 Phase III tracking might have not stressed enough, and do so sufficiently well as to negate the need for a T-1 to begin with. At the very least it overcomes the opportunity cost of having a third airframe (T-1) on the line. I guess I just don't get the T-1. To me it seems like a source of a lot of animosity among pilots who would have otherwise smoked in Talons, it fuels airframe-specific stigmas (the B-52 being a clear case), and it introduces the inability to cross-flow, which I think it's a meritless and unwarranted constraint. The only people it seems to be serving is the few cases where the pilot trainee can't fly if his life depended on it and the T-1 provides a larger buffer zone, at the cost of the class majority who could probably end up in the same operational airframe as they did in the new system, but maintain the possibility of cross-flowing at a later point in their careers; as somebody previously mentioned, UPT being only a slice of the performance profile of a pilot. So unless we're ready to assert that the bottom 50% of the T-1 trackers would outright kill themselves in a T-38, I believe my argument for an all-Talon system holds water. If such assertion is true however, then I digress and understand the existence of the T-1, and T-1 folks just need to thicken up, but I don't think that's the case. But that's my opinion from the outside looking in [ 27. January 2006, 15:48: Message edited by: MDINC ]

**I say the following as opinion not based on any operational experience, as my flying experience is exclusively civilian, and I wait to undertake SUPT.** I guess I missed the memo, but what is so bad about the BUFF? I've picked up on the assertion that by having bombers as drops on the -38 track, the commanders and IPs would have an avenue to shelter the "slower" -38 grads from "killing themselves" in a single seater. However short-sighted, perhaps relative, I may consider that assertion to be, I understand what they are trying to get to, and it would and does speak truth about certain pilots, as no system is able to effectively rack and stack people's potential perfectly. Personally, I am looking forward to tracking -38s as a -52 select. Now granted, I don't have half the pressures that an AD selectee would have in having to maximize their chances of obtaining their preferred airframe, but to suggest that a bomber assignment (and a BUFF one, which seems to be the common usage around here) would be a pigeon-hole or dead-end assignment for a -38 grad is just a feeble contention at best. Several of the senior pilots at my sponsoring squadron have very respectable single-seater experience; crossflow made possible in part to, you guessed it, a -38 background. I look at it as a great asset, and once again I am thrilled to get the opportunity to track Talons (and have a blast!) while having an open door of flexibility if the leadership would ever need me in a single-seater capacity at any point in time. On the flip side, and in giving credit to the -38 tracking bubbas who are specifically interested in pursuing Viper, Eagle and Hog assignments, the suggestion some on the TONE side make that one would be ill-prepared by default to tackle the task of flying a bomber on account of it having two seats, and one not having tracked T-1, also strikes me as a little feeble. I understand the role the T-1 track plays in the training system, but to suggest that Talon trained pilots are so one-dimensional as to be crassly unable to tackle the particulars of a crew airframe is a little bit of a stretch. I guess I look at my future airframe as full of opportunity and not a pigeon-hole assignment. Having said that I do understand the apprehension of having drops other than F-x's on the part of folks like TweetFAIP, that are in the thick of things regarding variablity of assignments. That's part of the reason why I side with the suggestion made by Bozz in a previous thread about bringing back the old all-Talon system. That is of course just wishful thinking , and not something that is going to happen. But I rather have that system and have people prove themselves rather than perpetually stigmatizing the -52. That said, I don't think it [the BUFF stigma] is that big of a deal, at the end of the day you either hack it or you don't. :D Tailwinds folks. EDIT: I didn't see rotorhead's post on the refresh, but I totally agree. Particularly about having diversity among the -38 IPs, all while lessening the "whitejet" burden. I was thinking of precisely that case as examples where having tracked -38s as a bomber guy does prove potentially valuable to the Force in the long run. [ 22. January 2006, 01:34: Message edited by: MDINC ]

The 'other' forum had this thread go on for ages, I followed it until I got tired of writing a thesis to the non-believers, you guys probably saw the long a$$ thread and how it got out of control...Slacker your analogy is very similar to the one I gave early on the 'other' board, good choice :D All that said,I love this thread here on baseops...the mere fact that currently rated AF drivers got hung on this one makes ME feel better about my non-selection letters, all the self-validation I needed :D

You shouldn't have a problem doing that, there are several -10 outfits been shuffled. Whiteman seems the more likely one for you (it's some of y'alls birds after all :D ) but Guard outfits are also shuffling, so it might gravitate down to those too. Bottom line, you're still golden, I have no hesitation in acknowledging the fact that I envy your position. Congrats and keep the pointy side forward! UPT is a handful but I bet it's a blast too

Hey ReserveWpilot, If the Guard/Reserve cocks%cking insinuations chafe you the wrong way, you're going to have a long a$$ decade trying to get into the AFReserves or the ANG. I was YOU about 4 years ago. At the time I thought to myself that if I worked hard in school in a technical major and busted my ass saving for and obtaining my civlian ratings, the Guard/Reserve would see my potential and hire me....tough sh$t, wasn't enough.... and here I sit, actually with an unsponsored pilot slot from the Reserves, working on the end of my second straight year of applications, going on the beginning of the third. To be honest, the best thing you can do is enlist with the unit and build up a reputation with them...there are countless examples of people on this board who did this and it worked for them. I didn't enlist because I felt potential deployments would prolongate, for far too long, the completion of a major that didn't even enable me to have a civilian part-time job, let alone a military one. In addition, I was out-of-state so I couldn't really commit to one unit, I needed the flexibility. Nowadays I have too many college degrees to ever consider enlisting, at the most I would commission into a non-flying job, but I digress. My point being, you're still in sophomore year, consider enlisting with the unit you're interested in. And by the way, that doesn't even preclude you from applying everywhere else, which isn't a bad proposition either since you'll be prior enlisted to them (as opposed to in-house which is the ideal case). So you really can't lose by enlisting, unless you piss off the wrong person and/or get deployed and your schooling prolongates for ions. Other than that, yeah visiting helps (I really don't know why I keep giving advice to the competition..oh well) and if you're not a social person then it can be tough... there I can't help you much, I'll tell you where the good fish are but I can't teach you how to fish, I'm on thin gas myself :D As for the Reserves, MOST definitively, you need face time. If you're looking for fighters, I'll save ya the homework and tell ya they're not hiring (and the line is long for a change LOL), but you're still about 3 years away from being in a position to apply so you shouldn't worry too much about the current environment. Reserve Heavy units are hiring on a seasonal basis due to the 2 yearly boards the AFRC holds, so for them it might still pay off to try the unsponsored route if don't quite get through by the normal sponsored route of directly interviewing with the unit (a la' Guard style). And of course, don't forget to also try the ANG; for the purposes of this thread they are one in the same jobwise. Do your best at school, have fun, take your AFOQT, BAT etc etc, get your PPL if you can and try and network with the units as much as possible. You can always forego the networking and go active (ROTC, or OTS if ya decide late in your college tenure). good luck bud MDINC

No prob man, I did jump the gun a little; you've clearly done your homework. Your last reply strikes me as well-grounded, I think that's a huge positive for you long-term. Good luck with the folks in Carolina, I would give my left one to have that mission based in such beautiful country. Ditto for the grad school questions, your exchange with the Dept Head was the kind of experience I was alluding to. Press on brotha.. MDINC