hindsight2020

Let me take a stab at your questions. The OTS board deals with active duty officer candidates, it is an acitve duty selection board. Both enlisted personnel and civilians apply to this board in hopes of being selected for the opportunity of gaining a commission in the AF. There are rated and non-rated boards (pilot is a rated position). Then there is the Guard and Reserves side of the house. ANG units hold boards once a year, depending on their slot allocations for that fiscal year. Priors, current enlisted, civilians alike apply directly to the particular unit, some get selected to interview and from those a selection is made. Once the lucky winner(s) are selected by the unit, they are put thru the process, which includes all the paperwork and medical sh$t, then the commissioning is obtained by attending AMS, which is the Guard's version of OTS. After AMS comes UPT etc etc etc. Now for your question. In the AF Reserves, AFRC holds a pilot selection board twice a year to approve candidates. In the Reserves your package gets submitted to the board either as a sponsored or an unsponsored candidate. Sponsored candidates are those who have been selected by the particular Reserve unit with which they interviewed. Reserve units hold interviews in a similar fashion as the ANG, but the final decision is not made by the unit, such in the case of the ANG, rather the approval is made by the AFRC board. Now, the thing about sponsorship is that FOR THE MOST PART, it's a done deal. That is to say, if you interviewed with a Reserve unit and got selected you can pretty much consider that as the equivalent to having been selected in a Guard unit. When your package gets sent to the AFRC board as 'sponsored' you can pretty much expect to be approved, it is in effect a rubber stamp. There have been scenarios where a snag was encountered in the process, but for the sake of simplifying the discussion, the folks who are going sponsored to the board shouldn't even sweat that board, it's a non-issue. Now, in addition to submitting a sponsored package, there is the option of submitting a package as an unsponsored candidate. This means there is no unit that has selected you, but the AFRC still enables you to be considered. What happens with the unsponsored route is that if you are approved by the AFRC board, you then become a 'free agent' of sorts and have to then start looking for a unit to call home. The slot expires age-wise only when you are no longer eligible to enter UPT and Robins does keep tabs on their selected 'free agents' as to try and match them with units that may have short-term manning needs or otherwise need to fill holes in their rosters (read sponsored guy washed out etc etc). It's on a voluntary basis (meaning they don't ASSIGN or ORDER you to be inducted into a particular unit) but most folks either flow into a unit they've been chasing or get selected into a Guard unit or perhaps go active by being selected by an OTS board, and we know this because the majority of folks applying to the Reserves are probably concurrently applying to Guard units and even the active (OTS) board. Now in the case of Reserve pilot selectees, they obtain their comission thru OTS, just like the active duty OTS board selectees (sorry about the redundant statement). I'm not sure if some Reserve folks have gone thru AMS because of a time crunch, but we'll leave that aside. For the most part if you're active duty or Reserves, you get the bar out of OTS, if you're Guard, you go to AMS. After that like I said, everybody meets at UPT. As it relates to your inquiry about your enlistment status, the short answer is that it doesn't matter. That is to say, the fact that you're currently enlisted doesn't put you on a different list regarding the AFRC board, deadlines are the same and the process you have to go through to get selected is the same as a civilian. Hopefully that gives you a road map of the different routes, and I hope I addressed the Reserve questions you had sufficiently. MDINC

FWIW Burt, it only appears that I've been trying for 'a while' because I'm a high-visibility target with the screen name. You're probably right about it too, it gets me more hate mail than it probabbly helps, but how fun would it be if we were all to bow down and have 'bona_fide_c$ck_sucker_won't_disagree_with_you' for screen name, there would be no fighter pilots left! That aside, I don't go spewing off my political views on the process during the interview, feel free to imply that it shines through though, I can't appease the whole world. But a message board? come on, we can all get over that, hopefully. I have no fear of sharing my experience, it's real and it's valuable to the extent that people are willing to put it in their bank of knowledge and move on. Constantly trying to discredit that experience is evidence that 1)you can't accept differing views or 2)people who elaborate on the particulars of their not-so-smooth sailing are de facto whiners and have no business being part of your flying organization. It's all perfectly fine, that's your prerrogative man. The truth of the matter is that the amount of time I've been pursuing the slot is nowhere near extreme when compared to others in the same pursuit. Two years around the block is not that long a time by any stretch of the imagination. Several pilots I've had the opportunity to interact with at these meet-and-greets met the board from 2 to 3 consecutive times AND were prior enlisted. This is further evidence that my time in purgatory is rather small. In addition, I have not applied to OTS, so my applications have been strictly to the Guard, at THAT, fighter units (with two exceptions), so that skews the experience. Your take on the Guard selection process proves once again that we continue to go "missed approach" with generalizations. This has become an all-out d$ck-measuring contest to prove to one another that there are either MORE prior-enlisted who are SH than are crew 'chief of the month' or conversely, MORE non-priors that are SH than CRJ flyin', parent-subsidized, university flight program babies. Once again, 'mileage will vary'. Like I told ISU, fight that urge to see red (perhaps the screen name ticks the sh%t out of you, I'll concede you that) and automatically discredit my experience because I spew it with dry sarcasm. The irony is, I usually spare you the semantics in person, and you have a point there, but Bozz's assessment IS true to whatever extent you feel comfortable with it. With that in mind, we hopefully put this big ol' parenthesis to bed and steer the thread back to the Reserve discussion. --AFRPilot Your point is certainly consistent with what my recruiter's position was on the matter. Something as to the effects of a general change in procedures. Also, I don't believe MEPS facilities ever did issue FCI's but I may be wrong. I remember going down to MEPS *thinking* I was going for a Flight Class I to discover that I just completed a General Class III hehe. [ 22. August 2005, 02:28: Message edited by: my_daddy_is_not_connected ]

ISU28, Dude, nice way of pointing the finger at me. I was expressing, just like you, MY experience. I didn't take an uncalled shot at anybody. You got your mouth slapped by a senior guy and are shifting gears on me because I haven't gotten a pilot slot yet and I'm an easier target to discredit with the military "got the T-shirt?" spiel. I'm not making excuses for myself, you just got defensive about BOZZ's assertion that there are several units out there practicing 'crew chief of the month club' selection criteria and getting burned by it. Don't spin it like you're just NOW taking exception to my agreement with him as the whole reason you blew up. See, here's what you fail to see, after all you did disclose your bias towards the experience of the prior enlisted candidate. The difference is that, in the game to select the next guy who'll wash out, odds are that the in-house guy will get selected. You said it yourself, in the event of a tie-breaker, the in-house guy will get the slot! We get it, search my previous posts and see what my position is on that, you'll realize that all I have always pointed out is the simple reality that you can't have the cake and eat it too. I don't discredit the priors as a group, but I won't blow sunshine about the practices just to help you not feel alluded to. And what about the cake? Simple, you can't justify the pshycology behind picking an enlisted guy over a non-prior AND get chafed when the kid washes out and people raise the point that the non-prior could have made it. It's not a wash as you feel it is, the in-house had the edge in at least getting the chance. Simple. Does it happen in every unit? No. I never said so, neither did Bozz. Does it happen in several units? You betcha. As for the personal shots you took at me, raising questions over my quality as an applicant, pffff.... I won't even dignify that tangent you took, besides, the difference between you and me is time buddy, mere time. If there is one thing I have learned in the process of seeking a pilot slot is patience and one hell of a callous skin. The process is competitive, and the units do, for the most part, the best job they can to size up and gauge the interviewees, some do a better job than others. We certainly disagree in experience, and it's obvious why, but don't discredit one's experience just because it rubs you the wrong way.

comanche, I really don't know exactly how they are going about it. Everybody seems to have a different experience. FWIW, when I was sent to Brooks, I was the only one there without a pilot slot. That raised a lot of eyebrows, which I thought was hilarious. There were about 14 ROTC people, all of whom had already been alloted a pilot slot. Some of them didn't pass certain tests so the fate of their pilot slot was in question as of the second day of testing (when I left). Then there were two Reserve folks, a kid who is being sponsored by a Reserve heavy unit and then Johnny hole-in-my-pocket (yours truly). I really don't know if my case is standard procedure now or not, but I know I was cut invitational (civilian) orders to show my unsponsored a$$ at Brooks and complete both MFS and FCI, which took two formal days of tests. I didn't ask much about it, all I got out of the recruiter was a generic "That's how they're doing the medical thing now in the AFR..." referring to the way the medical-related timeline has gone since MEPS and beyond. I'll venture to say that sponsored applicants may have different experiences since their unit will probably do all the scheduling and paperwork for them, so when I talked to the other AFRC guy while at Brooks he concurred (sp?) and told me his unit was doing all the stuff for him and here he is going thru Brooks in the same fashion as I'm going thru it. So as always, as it relates to military flying slots 'it f$ckin' depends', for good or bad. I have no expectation of being sponsored by a unit before the board, it is clear there's no time for that now anyways. What I have felt from my communications with AFR units is that they are letting me 'ride' the board lone-wolf and if I come out on top then certain magic phone calls may start happening. One particular D.O. even used the term 'free agent' and 'off-the-shelf' during a phone conversation. Convenient for them and nail-biting for me? Absolutely. But you know what? That still beats the "crewchief of the month" shenanigans with the Guard; at least with AFR Command they can hear my case and give me a shot. When/if the boss says I'm good enough, I do see some of the units I've been having a fairly amicable relationship (read: they have requested I inform them of the results of the board and my progress with the app package) extending possible offers. --Hey BOZZ I'm so glad a veteran said what you said, you hit the nail in the head brother! That's EXACTLY what my experience has been with the Guard for the past 2 years. I know I've had this discussion with AirGuardian before, and I still concede to him that for the most part Guard units are top-notch in their selection criteria, but my personal experience has been more along the lines of what you described. I have been witness to the complaint on the part of officers on these boards about applicants washing out of training, which floors me considering the tough time I've had getting interviews because peole are "just soo damn qualified" And you're right, from my last two interviews their selections have been literally the 'in-house crew chief guy recently graduated from West Valley Community Vocational Junior College and Screen Door Repair'. So we'll see how the AFRC pans out for me...

Just to add my take on the process. I'm shooting to go for the September Board (I guess it's in October now) as unsponsored. The application process to meet a AFRC board is at least 6 months long. the recruiter will be the one to send you and compile all the forms as well as schedule the medical for you. I'm non-prior civilian and I can tell you that they are doing things very differently now as it relates to the medicals. I was scheduled a Class III medical at a MEPS facility around May. After that came the big shuffle to get into the Brooks scheduling. No longer are people being sent to local AFB's for either the FCI or the MFS. At least that was my experience. Once in Brooks you will complete a FCI/MFS which will take about 2 days if you aren't a PRK case. I don't know about the 're-visits' but I didn't need a re-test on anything, and I was formally released at the end of the second day of testing. The paperwork should take a month or so to process and it is good to stay in touch with the status of it. My recruiter originally had my travel plans scheduled for the whole week, which would have accounted for any re-testing that they would have required (it didn't in my case so I was able to expedite my return day); once again it seems to be a different way of doing things than what others may have experienced in the past. Ditto on the sponsored package. If you're going to the board sponsored, it is for all practical purposes a rubber stamp affair. The only people doing any 'crossing-fingers' business will be me and the boat of unsponsored packages. I just hope this board yields results similar to the board last March, but something tells me that people probably flooded this upcoming board by watching March's results...well I guess I should start the cross-finger business :D

That has been the information I've been getting as well. Robins provides the units facing short-notice manning needs with a heads-up about those selected as unsponsored. You do not have a fiscal year time limit on your slot allocation. The only limitation is the age threshold for UPT training, which for a young guy, early 20's and just approved, could mean a healthy chunk of years of buffer zone. However, in my search I haven't been able to find a case where an unsponsored candidate has waited longer than a 1.5 years to be inducted into a unit. By that I don't mean physical time to UPT, I mean time between getting approved by the board and verbally accepting a bid from an interested unit. If anybody has whatever-hand experience of a scenario atypical to that feel free to share. I hear what duece is thinking about, the line is getting long on that one btw :D . I don't know how that would that play out in real life though, a lot of politics go on within the Guard/Reserve side of the house, one wouldn't want to stand out as too picky, the unit you're interested in might decide you're not their kind of material and you're just gonna end up 30 without a slot. Realistically I would expect to accept a bid from a unit within a year of being approved (IF approved) within a reasonable list of airframes of interest and location. I think most unsponsored selectees end up taking that route. Hey Slye, just to add to duece's question, how many boards did you meet? Can you meet consecutive boards? I'm just being realistic, these days it looks as though it may take a couple of boards just to get through the system. Thanks folks

In defense of YeFirst, the post can be misunderstood (or perhaps it did come out) as a little patronizing, based on these: Aren't you deadset on becoming a pilot? The adverb here makes a lot of difference... WOW.....It should? This one, I think, is the one that got him in trouble. I do agree that most UPT locations are rather limited in the way of professional employment, so it is definitively a factor to consider when making a decision to move down with a spouse or not. However, I wouldn't be so "granted" about her being well-served to join the Stepford Wives Club, and I think that's where some of the demeanor in the post came into question. Not everybody (my gf included coincidentally) is attracted to the UPT wife club thing, some like to establish primary social circles outside of the Air Force, which I would actually encourage in my relationship, but that's a matter of personal opinion. The important thing is not to take either position for granted, and I can see how some folks in the posts above took the statements as reflective of that attitude. That said, I wish you both good luck, it's a challenge but it matters for very important reasons. My 0.02 pesos

I'll just add that it's not just civy flying....it's all of flying! But then again we all know my dad of course :D so I'll stop here

The only math that doesn't add up in my mind is the question of how is EVERYBODY happy when there are more people who wanted to track 38's than people who actually do. My point being, I don't see how everybody that is flying heavies now is absolutely, unequivocally a CRM personality. Particularly the close calls at track select, those folks don't just become CRM friendly overnight. That they have to is one thing (I allude back to Koolkat's post), that they actually do is another. Moreover, I'm inclined to suggest the same for those who actually had their stint as fighter pilots and transitioned to the heavy side. I think that [single seat personality] would be the source of most hesitation for -38 hopeful, I know it would be my hesitation if I came in #4 out of 3, the dreaded gear flippin' seat. I concede I do not know for a fact if that is what the right seat is all about, just anecdotes from the civi side...if it's true maybe the new MPD program might be a mitigating factor, hell maybe an incentive, on getting over those sentiments, FWIW. Any thoughts from the folks who actually have gone thru this?

Devil's Advocate switch: *ON* Unless you have a nagging feeling that it is likely that they will talk about you using it, or other relatives for that matter, I wouldn't disclose an event like that. You've learned a great lesson in the power of discretion, particularly of those things that can hurt other people's perception of you. Are all AF officers saints? Not by a long shot. Most didn't fully disclose all/any of their sh%t either. It's a matter of valuation. A guy killed a neighbor's goat (I need to sound biblical on this one), never got caught; you tripped on the carpet at a party and fell face first into a joint, but didn't inhale ;) . Point is you go tell the AF you "Yes I experimented with MJ, I am sorry, will not do it again " and my friend, the goat killer will be watching you sit on the bleachers on his T-37. Not disclosing information that is part of your record is STUPID. Disclosing information where there are no legal means to hold up the claim against you (written afidavit, video, audio, hooker is vice.. oh sh%t wrong post..) is plain ol'NAIVE and WILL BITE YOU IN THE ASS but for a whole yet ironically sweet set of reasons. Your cousin: Yo that dude smoked that sh%t every morning with his Oaties The AF: Yo, you smoked that sh%t with your cousins? You: No. The AF: They said you did. You: Can they prove it? AF: No but it puts a question mark on your character. You: You just talked to a couple of self-admitted MJ users, you believe them? Plus I submit they have an inherent desire to see me fail as they never "(put your reason here, doesn't matter, proving if it's right is not your burden, it's theirs)" There ya go son, you won that argument, BUT!, all that won't happen if you save yourself the trouble and not disclose a marginal non-critical issue such as the MJ thing. Once again, if it was a real issue, your doping testing will reveal you for who you are. Otherwise, your naivetté will make it harder for you not only to get to where you want to go but also to reconcile the sudden discovery that 1) life isn't fair and 2) people with worse offenses enjoy the priviledges of being AF officers and pilots. Welcome to the world Johnny. Devil's Advocate switch: _off (Mr. Mackey's voice over): Drugs are bad m'kaay.. Seriously though, don't be freakin' stupid anymore, don't do sh%t where they can catch you red handed. Don't do drugs, use a condom for Christ's sake and don't become an alcoholic. Simple enough for ya? Good luck young one.

The results of my morning......So I had a wild goose chase this morning looking for contact numbers for Reserve recruiters.... First the recruting hotline. Guy asked me if I wanted to join the reserves. I said, no, I need the number for a recruiter to set up a package for the pilot board. He said he didn't have that kind of info! I was like WTF... So he gives me the number of AFR Personnel in Denver...I already knew that wasn't gonna help. So I call them and of course, they can't help, they give me a couple of numbers including one particular unit. Then I call the unit, they don't have the numbers. So finally I look in the yellow pages and found them on my own, go figure. The first office won't pick up the phone, then the other does pick up the phone and off I go in my little story. At the end of which the recruiter goes "so...how did you get all this information?" I wanted to say "Well, don't you know about BASEOPS.NET?!?!" but refrained. At that point he gave me the POC for a person who could help me. At any rate long story short, happy to report that they got people specifically for officer/pilot affairs now. The pro is that the guy knows what I was talking about, the con is that like a busy manager he has 20 other clients. :D He was helpful as hell though, wants to set up the package for the Fall board and says he'll try to get me a sponsorship. I mentioned the unsponsored scenario and he didn't seem too optimistic about pursuing that route.I gave him my frame preferences and I guess the ball is rolling now. I will still press for my package to be sent if he's unable to facilitate a sponsorship but he seemed optimistic about finding me a sponsor after he gathered my info, which is nice for a change. P.S.the intel on last board was pretty dead on, he gave me the same numbers that were quoted on here. happy flying folks :cool:

Since I've been at it trying to land a spot with Guard units for a while now and somebody mentioned the options of active duty flying and Reserve flying, I was wondering how much merit and worth would shooting at the Reserves with an "unsponsored" package have? Personally, I did not know one could even do this (once again thank you Baseops for being the mother of all intel sources :D ). It now sounds like a possibility since I already run a de facto Kinkos from my living room, expanding the mass mailing to the Reserve wouldn't hurt. From the posts before, you guys mentioned what looks like a similar process to the Guard... and I do agree with the comment made regarding recruiters. However, I feel that I would perhaps be better served by shooting at the HQ 'unsponsored' and getting it over with (fully understanding I would have to go shopping for units afterwards), rather than having to cater to all these units before even knowing if they are giving me serious consideration (read Guard process). Any merits to the "unsponsored" package? Is it something only Mr. recruiter man would be able to help me with? P.S. I think I have everything for a reserve board package, except the FC1, but I rather consult with you folks than the recruiter, although I'll give him a call tomorrow to let him know I want to shoot an app to HQ. Thanks!

If you don't care what airframe you get, and you're cool wit the active duty commitment, AD is Heaven for ya. It is definitively easier to plain get a slot thru active than ANG/reserves. By the looks of your profile, you're basically in thru the OTS track, aside from manning issues (too many kids wanting to be Maverick this year as opposed to last year) I'd say relax, you're in, wait for the letter, wear a condom, oh and don't poke your eye out or something stupid like that. I would expand on the reasons why active is a better way of obtaining a pilot slot than Guard (a favorite among those allergic to truth) but you answered that question yourself on the last reply. Good luck and happy flying :cool:

Hey tax collector, That topic was visited recently, complete with name-calling and the works, some insight into what you might be interested. https://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultima...t=001792#000000 The thread title is aerospace engineering if you prefer to search for it yourself. Regarding the test pilot, astronaut thing, I'll once again point you to read thru the thread I mentioned. Good luck

Oh JHC,(starpping my harness)this is gonna hurt... here we go folks!..... I knew the self-righteousness came from somewhere, a fellow engineering graduate no less.... Folks, consider tfb1's assertion about his pursuit of an Aero MS having a Mechanical Engineering BS. Kinda oxymoronic don't you think, after all NO AE's got hired at Initech, I mean BAE Systems....LOL Plus, if he's having so much fun, then why the hell quit? UPT?, nah that shit don't compare to engineering, 'inspite of earning 3 times as much', and that's a quote! What they got you working on buddy? running corrosion analysis on the office's coffee pot rim? oh shit I forgot, you must be project manager by now, after all that internship really got ya ahead! :D "You can not go wrong with a technical background. I graduated with morons that were making over $50K to start, and those were kids in the bottom of the class." LOL Point #2 of my thesis in the beginning.Like being in the top of a 'class' means anything LOL (pssssst x-wing for your information, I'll let ya in a little secret they hid from tfb1: they don't keep count on that shit! oh and one other thing: they throw your resume in the trash after the career fair is done...some contract employers have with universities to boost the Institution's image to prospective students and current to boot, where they agree to show face time at these career fairs in exchange for cuts of the research grants..sorta like a cartel, all this while the employer doesn't even need an extra 500 resumes on the already flooded electronic database where people scan and send them ) There is always people on this field spewing the "man I know all these people who ARE MAKING IT!" Remember the 'putting face' minor I told you about x-wing. For every fallacy like the 50K moron above I got one counter-point to match it...conclusion? it's a wash. You know who's getting 60K at Raytheon fresh out of college?? This chick my girlfriend's roomate knows, who's a CS major, whose sister works at Raytheon,whose daddy is living it up swimming in cash in the Suburbs of Chicago,plus (I hate this fact) the girl is HOOTTT as hell, and they lined the job for her... As far as the hard working engineering graduates? they're back home, right with my college buddies, or working non-related fields, or like myself, hiding in grad school for a little bit until we can get into UPT, or get 'decent flight instructing jobs' (perhaps an oxymoron of my own hehe). Oh and don't get me started on the rest of them really smart ones. These kids (international students for the most part) have no recourse in the pursuit of their degrees. They are one-upping one another in the pursuit of the one job at a defence company, yet examples like Raytheon girl just knocks the shit out of the pipedream speech tfb1 has for a recording on his voicemail greeting. I have these kids as co-workers and students and every day I do everything possible to give them real advice to help them, and I have seen them turn around and re-engage into the aviation technology department, get real marketable experience and have a HELL of a better time working around airplanes, since that's what most AE's REALLY got in the game for. As for the morons tfb1 graduated with, well he's talking about the morons he pledged for in the same fraternity, folks who had shit lined up, yes we know he will deny this, like I told x-wing before, look at our minors for answers. Oh and to make sure this doesn't get sidetracked into university name-calling, this is not an issue of niche market one-company town with the regional college not employing me and the others, I'm talking big name universities as well, having, Georgia Tech, Purdue, Alabma under my own belt I've seen plenty of these dynamics and last time I checked the sun is still there after you take your hand off it trying to hide it. :rolleyes: "If you want to major in something that's going to give you a 4.0, do something like psychology or sports management. If flying doesn't work out then you can always do what the psych and sports majors I graduated with do.... serve fries." Classic engineering majors defense mechanism. In Fantasy Land people with engineering degrees, even if they are morons, cash out at 50K from the starting line, but street savvy non-technical majors manage a Burger King. That might need some pshyco-therapy to fix, what can I say. As far as the fun factor, aside from the putting face (no need to beat a dead horse) aspect, another wash. Yeah SOME truly like engineering, but even those who do, get burned out. Don't ask me, ask the older pilots in the board OR career engineers on newsgroups and they'll tell ya how FUN it is to have to switch to working on printer toners after a 'joyful tour' working for an aerospace company...can anybody say 18-month job security? :D

Well, since nobody stepped up to the plate, here it comes, let's decypher the myth: DO NOT GO INTO AEROSPACE ENGINEERING. #1 The academics and job outlook You will thank me in the end for what I'm about to tell you. First of all, the academics suck. You will be racking your brain out for years and years while your college buddies party it up. I don't know words that can describe the waste of time that it is. Do not be misled by those who say 'well, it IS hard work but if it was easy everybody would do it'. This is a flawed mentality in that it fails to recognize that you will not be rewarded for the extra effort. That is to say, the job AND the job outlook sucks. The market is FLOODED with engineering graduates as it is, getting a degree in aerospace engineering is to further dispossess yourself because it is so much less marketable than ANY of the other engineerings out there. #2 The culture There is an academic hazing culture that is particularly natural to aerospace engineering departments. I know this, I have been thru 3 aero departments! As people progress through this major they realize that the job outlook is bleek, so obtaining the best GPA and one-upping one another is key to obtain the 'coveted' internships that will get you ahead in terms of obtaining a job in the aerospace industry. If you wanted to work on pneumatic actuators for handicapped doors you wouldn't have gone AE but yet a lot of people end up doing just that cause they can't get shit for work. Back to the culture issue. So you will be put through the paces and in the event that you realize the waste of time and money that it is and jump ship you will be pressured by your peers who will mock you and tell themselves 'well, he couldn't hack it'. Believe me, on top of the already crummy social outlook you have basically self-imposed, you will also have the contempt and bitter competition of classmates and even professors that don't want you to succeed. #3More on the job So as a freshman you get into AE thinking NASA, thinking Raptor, thinking active-aerolastic wing morphing, thinking I will CHANGE THE WORLD!.... settle down buddy boy, not so fast....1969 is loooooonng gone,the freggin 777 was designed freggin centuries ago and this economy can't stomach R&D efforts to support the flooding of engineering graduates, let alone AE graduates, that it cranks out every year. You will not see the space shuttle in your work, you will not even see the the freggin tire of the space shuttle. You will work at Initech where every friday you will fear not having a job on Monday, and the closest you will get to experience the 'feeling' will be by running the 1000th version of the same crummy code for the god-forsaken nut and bolt #456463 in section #456 of panel #45. #4More on the outlook So at this point you are saying to yourself and getting a hard-on to the idea that it is worth the extra effort since it will all pay off in the end. Think again. Nursing has better salary outlook than aerospace engineering. You heard it here folks, nurses make more moola and we know the 'tough' time they had in college. That is IF, IF! you get a job. Job which by way I don't even want even if I could get it...but more on that later on in the post. Another issue is the nature of the source. Why do you think all these other posters tell you it's all good?..Or the slightly more honest ones tell you 'it's not THAT BAD' ?¿ Look at bullet point #2. PUTTING FACE is every Aero engineer student's minor, forget all that 10th decimal place differentiation they like to masturbate to, 'oh I'm strucutres, oh well I'm propulsion on the other hand, well I'm dynamics' It's all crap we were all PUTTING FACE minors. You know what I discovered about that crap? When I started my masters in AE I couldn't even get stuff to do research on what I thought I had planned out for a specialty (what a joke!), the thing was THAT dead and this one kid I know who has been a PHD student for at least 4 years just switched to geology because in the time that he basically wasted his life he did a couple of publications in geology and eventually recognized he was farther along getting a phd in a concentration of geological-engineering sciences (which he did as a hobby mind you) than what he was doing 24/7. Waste of time son. Once again, consider the sources, I could make a whole post on 'where are they now' examples from countless ex-college buddies who underwent the AE myth right next to me and oh sweet Jesus you would forever kick yourself in the ass for even thinking about doing AE. Either way you cut it is a loss. If you THINK this shit is remotely your passion, aviation technology and an MBA with aviation concentration will put you closer to being happy around airplanes. If the contention is money for you, son you're better off doing nursing and you will actually have an easier time and the extra moola will make you crack a smile considering the lesser work :D #5 Do an experiment Do an experiment, sit at the computer lab with all the other believers, do it at 3am, they will most likely STILL be there preocuppying themselves on why the 'for loop' they wrote in MATLAB is not flagging right. Do this, do it for 4 consecutive semesters, pretend you are getting paid 30K a year for it, (and yes monkeys that is what people are getting paid in AE, dream your dreams if you don't accept that) and then judge whether you have a passion for it. And if they tell you my account of the experience is the exception and not the rule, once again look at point #2. They are being disingenous. This is the rule son, this is reality in AE. Hell, people with other engineering degrees have a better chance at working in aerospace industry than YOU with an AE degree, how's that for an irony. An accountant I know at NASA has a higher starting salary than the top 3 or top 2 monkey that got the ONE starting-level engineering job at NASA :D #6 So what's MY bias? Simple, I did it cause I thought to myself 7 years ago that it would be smart for me to get as technical a degree as I could to be competitive to land a Viper slot. oh and btw as for why I'm still in this prison pursuing the MS in this crap? Cause it pays the crummy rent, I sit in class, pretending to listen to the professor that's spewing the same crap while I think about how many days I got till I get paid so I can go pay the rent. That's fresh out of undergrad. It was that stipend or going back home with ma' and pa' so I can go to the basement, nail that crummy diploma to the wall, stare at it and go work retail so I can eat...hell even with the stipend I work retail, how's that for using the rocket scientist line on Sears haha. Oh and for full disclosure, 3.85 GPA in AE Magna Cum Laude biotch... for those monkeys who think I must be one of 'those' who barely made it thru the degree by the way I talk about it. Listen, I never wanted to be an engineer to begin with so the job thing doesn't affect me much (other than my parent's frustration in knowing I never wanted to work this degree after all the cost). I did get the degree and realized that I ended up overkilling the matter and actually I'm better educated and qualified than a decent chunk of current -16 drivers when they were in my shoes, YET still can't get a slot (there's a lesson to be learned about hard work in that one too, so take notes :rolleyes: ) but that's another post altogether. I put this down so that you recognize the other posters bias, and my own bias regarding the matter. You make the decision. I hope you can learn from the hindsight of others and use it to your advantage. My one selling point would be to submit that I don't even want the job these monkeys comiserated about getting for 5+ years, so my discouraging of you from going AE in no way benefits me, I'm just another dude trying to fly -16s. My .02 pesos, happy flying folks :cool:

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm excited about the opportunity of getting a Herc slot, as a matter of fact all the units I've applied to have been either 16's or 130's... the thread wasn't meant to lead to that, I am putting out the question of whether or not the fighter mission is losing altitude to the point of not being that viable of a career choice anymore; you misunderstood me. :D My original comment still stands for scrutiny of course, is this [the conversions] a trend or is it just another day at the ANG? Happy flying folks :cool:

So I take it that heavy to fighter conversions are nominally unheard of? Is this an indication of a larger scale trend as it relates to the stability of the fighter airframe(s) job outlook? That is to say, would it be fair to suggest that one who sits on a, say Guard Viper gig, shouldn't take it for granted, he/she might not see a full 8 years of it? Would like to hear some opinions about that point, I remember e-mailing a unit in Iowa for the usual UPT package info and in the e-mai they volunteered the intel that they were converting to KC-135's; also one unit which might prove to be the closest I have gotten to getting a slot underwent a Viper-to-Herc conversion...seems like a trend but it may just be commonplace. Happy flying folks :cool:

Hi folks, I was wondering, when ANG units change aircraft, what happens to the pilots? Particularly when the change is fighter-to-heavy or heavy-to-fighter. Do the pilots get to cross-train? are they told to transfer to another state? ...¿? Seems like it would be something that would depress some folks yet something that could also excite others very much. Thanks and happy flying folks :cool:

WX, Thanks for the correction on the intel! I knew there was a catch with the officer issue (5 year service time) :D As for the other issue, it may surprise you but content and demeanor are not necessarily inter-related. Venting is great therapy, I do it here not anywhere near an interview board :cool: Besides a lot more folks in here feel the same way, they're just afraid of being called up on it...I'm not.... as long as you're not in my interview board haha 'the puppet master' :cool:

Sorry long post, I think the answer is because if you accept a commission as an officer in the unit (a non-pilot officer position that is) that's it for you, since pilot is an officer position itself. If you're enlisted you can "upgrade" so to speak. I may be wayyy off but I think that's the reason a bunch of people who have no business or incentive joining as enlisted do so even with a degree under their belts! (which automatically enables you to apply for an officer spot). Folks feel free to correct my info on that one since I do not know that for sure...what I've perceived from the numbers of people for sure is that there is a non-incentive in becoming a non-flying officer and then seeking the slot as opposed to be enlisted and seeking the slot...I just don't know the exact reason :D I believe the reason Nate is wanting to enlist is because he's painfully aware, just like the rest of us ANG pilot wannabe's, that to get a pilot slot in the Guard you gotta be connected,um connected or..er,um... connected. If your dad is not the commander, or you don't know the governor of your state, or the adjuntant general for the Guard of your state for that matter, then being a crew chief is as close to being connected as it gets. For the purposes of full disclosure I got ONE interview (as an out-of state non prior...aka fu***d) and it went great, the guys loved me and it came down to 'well if you were a little older, and were from the unit we would give ya the job right now). They may pull some force for me in the recommendation and I may have good news in a month but I'm not sleeping on it, I'm 98% confident I won't get the job, 1% confident I MAY get a 4th alternate or something and 1% confident I'll be the 1% that gets an UPT slot as out-of-state non prior civilian ...and I understand their reasons. Personally I would never enlist with a degree and a pilot's license under my belt but I'm aware of the incentives and why people do it and take no bitter feel when they give it to the crew guy over a dispossesed outsider like myself since it is righteously yours putting in your time (I'm just bitter about not being advantaged and everybody deciding to become Johnny Maverick at the same freggin time ) Bear in mind being a crew chief still doesn't guarantee you being picked up by the unit so you gotta be careful what you wish for...real nice to get deployed to the sandbox between college semesters and get passed down a couple of years and then coming to the end of your enlistment and still jack for a pilot slot and having to think about re-enlisting. That's my .02 pesos, happy flying folks :cool: P.S. sorry about the jacked intel on the first paragraph I have no factual proof of the reasons only hearsay.