ViperStud

Dude I pointed out some miscalculations by management that have led to retention probs and offered an argument as to where they misstepped. I never called out non-flyers. I simply said that leadership is not doing enough to keep those of us with lots of options to stay in. You called us a bunch of whiners. GFY. I don't care how or why, but you didn't complete training and now have flight suit envy like countless other light switch dicked people in the AF.

The AF is a comfortable place for those mediocre types that don't have the skills or work ethic to succeed in truly competitive workplaces - you know, the types that punch out of difficult training. Those (you) are not the one with the options I was talking about on the outside. Enjoy your time-based promotions and keep scoffing those who finished what you couldn't. You fit right in.

Wake up, bro. It's not just about money, it's about QOL, working for an organization you're proud of and (yes) compensation. QOL - I serve in the RC doing the same job as on AD. I also have a stable location near family, leadership that ensures 12-hour days are not standard, a wife able to pursue a career without the threat of moving and control over when/where/if I deploy. The AD needs to compete with (or compensate for lack thereof) this option. I serve for the same big picture company, but there are two distinct differences. First, leadership is better. Some of it trickles down to the ANG but that if it gets way worse (similar to AD) that brings me to point number two: options. On the bonus in AD I'm screwed; here I have options. Money: like it or not we are not all equal. Even moreso, Some younger pups are far more productive that the below average dude that is 5 years older - which is why the Sec Def is looking into some changes. The business world is not handcuffed by time-in-grade and compensation limits, which provides a situation with more open competition for money, leadership and promotion than we currently have. My BIL is SF (same age too) and we got to talking about this subject. He basically admitted that he only common jobs on the outside that make the same money right away for him would involve personal security in the Middle East, minus the pension plan of AD with more time away. Sorry, but I have more options. People can bitch all they want about aircrew (or legal, docs entering late, and eventually cyber) making more, but the AF needs to compensate for the fact that I have more options on the outside. In my case, the bonus (as big as it is) was not enough. A lot of people agree with me - I dont think it has influenced anyone to stay that wasn't already doing so. The SF dude doesn't need a bonus because his options aren't the same. Life isn't fair, it's real. If you want options, develop a skillset or experience that opens them up for you. Don't just sit back and bitch about others that have the work ethic to set themselves up in a better place.

I doubt it will happen. The shortage is absorbed by shorting staff positions. The porch is very blunt about it and it is the right way to handle the problem. Ultimately we will be cutting deep on staff positions and we will end up with 11Ms filling positions where we really want CAF expertise, but mother Air Force will still pay lip service to the fact that it's business as usual. Who knows though, the cracks are already starting to show. The fact that there have been substantial changes to the bonus twice now in a matter of a few years shows that management is starting to sniff a problem.

The problem is that these force shaping initiatives have been executed with a goal of political correctness having a higher priority than actually getting the job done. A few years back one of my bros already had a separation date - his goal was always to fly vipers, serve his commitment and then go back and run the farm. With DOS in hand, he was force shaped and given ~80K as he was "kicked out." He was told by management that one goal of force shaping was to cut from an entire cross section of the force (gotta be "fair"), so it made some dipshit bean counter's slide he briefed to a general look a lot better that there were 1-2 11Fs on it. After all, why be honest and say that we aren't cutting those dudes because they are critically manned? Much more important to be PC. I'm always happy to see good shit happen to good people, but from the perspective of force and money management, this is a joke. Fvck our culture and the management that made it what it is today. PC has become more important than mission accomplishment. It shows everywhere and I believe it is the root cause of 99% of our cultural problems that drove dudes like me out of AD.

I would sure hope so. People here called me (and others) out for accusing leadership of a potential bait-and-switch last summer, although my guess was that dollar amounts (not duration of bonus) would go up. Considering the (lack of) transparency in AF leadership lately, nothing would surprise me. Good luck to those with the big decision to make.

What I saw the past few years was that the Raptor was the clear winner for top choice. After that mostly an even split between Mudhen and Viper. The occasional stud wanted a Hog or Eagle. It appears the writing is on the wall for those platforms. If/when that changes I bet they would become more popular again.

I understand why the rule is in place and it makes sense. That being said, rules are made to be (and have been) broken. Isn't the whole point of the TI and BIP programs to welcome you to the world of UPT- level buffoonery? Part of PIT is learning how to be proficient in the airplane, part of it is war stories. If one or two PIT IPs had no war stories I don't think it would have made a difference at all.

Unless you're working a PFA. Buddy's wife got there having never been out of the ops world; part of a join-spouse deal. We all know the rules apply to some more than others. If you aren't working an angle and don't know someone though, expect to have to follow the rules.

Yeah dude hate to pile on, but don't waste your cash. This problem doesn't even register. First, it's not like I'm taking that hour out of my personal time. I've run over to get a pic taken and, when there, dropped the flightsuit down and UPT on a shirt/tie and service coat - total investment of less than a half hour. Second, time at work is a sunk cost. If I do this between flights, it's not like my time with the photography dude translates to extra time at work. I would only get it done if I was not busy anyway. Third, good luck convincing me to pay my own money to get around the minor issues listed above. I doubt you'd turn a profit on the approximately $0.69 I'm willing to forego to prevent some dude in the photo shop from actually having to do his job. In unrelated news my buddy saw an AF PT test calculator app in the App Store for a few bucks. Talk about a solution for a problem that doesn't exist - reading the app description trying to sell you on it was entertaining to say the least.

Slander, sent you a PM

To be relevant in combat for the past 15 years.

Dude that's a good post. Funny anecdotal story, my SIL is married to a skycop and we were casually BSing when she mentioned us being peers because we are in the same year group. I chuckled and said we weren't, to which she went on her insecure anti-pilot rant (she's AF too). I replied with the same argument - if we worked at Apple as a designer and an accountant, would we be paid the same because we are the same age? Would we compete for the same jobs outside the AF? He couldn't fly an airliner any more than I could compete for a private security gig or donut taster. The look of bewilderment on her face was hilarious. It's like she never realized the options available to some of us on the outside are far greater than those available to others. It amazes me how many people inside and outside the mil think we are all peers and equals even though we have vastly different specialties. This is the biggest problem with lumping us all together for promotions and trying to compare a fighter pilot to a pharmacist. It shouldn't be happening in the first place.

DD - first, please don't mistake my sarcasm for true anger. Second, never tone down sarcasm - it breeds weakness. I get it, I had a tone. That was on purpose. Should I have to wear blues when not on the schedule? Hell no. But I bring it up as an example of having some logic (not flight suit envy) dictate UOD. I have to wear a bag most days. Do office workers have to wear ABUs? Either apply some type of objective criteria across the board or shut up and color. Insecurity and hurt feelings are poor foundations upon which to build policy. Culture and leadership are the two main reasons I separated. Chalk this up to a sub- bullet under culture. I don't bitch about berets, badges/tabs, cords, weapons that I am not authorized to wear. I chose my path and live within the confines of that path. This is the military (not Boy Scouts) and we cannot/should not cater to insecurities. I get why senior leaders may mix up uniforms and there is a reason for it that logic does not apply to the masses. Want a beret? Finance isn't for you. Want a gun? Be a sky cop. I went through a longer schoolhouse than most other career fields go through. Want to wear a bag? Earn it. When I was at Vance, we had 1COs that had wings made. Didn't wear them obviously, but had them sitting on their desks. Full-up radiator badges. How does that look to the dude that washes out in phase 3? Out-processing and seeing some 1CO with the wings you couldn't earn on her desk. Or how about the grads? You work your balls off for a year to earn something and see that? Sure, that's a little dramatic. I get it. My point remains - if you want something then earn it. If you aren't willing to walk the walk, then why should we take away something from those that do, just to level the playing field? It's another example of the PC everyone gets a trophy mindset that is weakening our culture.

And that's the crux of the problem. Most non-rated people who suffer from uniform insecurity focus on one thing - flight suits. Let's not make it about bags, let's make it about wearing the appropriate uniform for your daily duties. I'll wear blues if I'm not going to fly/sim. MX wears ABUs or coveralls. Management and office workers wear blues. Problem solved. Wait, you don't like that? You want to wear your ABUs while you sit in an air conditioned office from 0730-1630? Copy, it's not about pragmatism or form fitting function. It's about your flightsuit envy. Grow the fvck up and worry about something important, like doing your job.

Post is a real piece of work, so it doesn't surprise me. He was the first WG/CC in a long time to leave Shaw without being a select, so we all figured he was done. Unfortunately he was only delayed, not denied, said promotion. I've never seen SNCOs openly deride the WG/CC in front of officers with absolute confidence that they were right, was glad to see that was the exception and not the rule as I moved on to subsequent assignments. This is a dude that tried to have a light bar installed on his CC mobile so he could pull people over. Eventually SFS won that battle. If he did say those things, hopefully Welsh holds him accountable. Good riddance.

Hate is a strong word; I didn't hate my worst assignment location simply because of the bros, but I would never want to go back. Maybe viper dudes just equate it with Cannon and can't get that taste out of their mouths. I still think the ideas here are wishful thinking. With "applications" or "hardship pay" the AF still should and will fill needs. Give it 10 years and people will be clamoring for the new iteration of a supposedly "fair" assignment process. Nothing is going to stop the BNRs and the brow on the line will always be the lowest priority.

In my little corner of the AF it appears to be HO that's the problem. One of the reasons I punched is because I figured I had about 99% chance of spending 3-4 of my remaining 8 there. Either that or go to my location of choice now, easy decision. Had a bro working in AFPC who said that they would probably end up having to send mostly dudes with commitments (UPT or bonus) there. Anyone there that can vouch? Is manning an issue or is it business as usual?

You only get one true choice in the AF and it happens 10 years after you graduate UPT, much sooner for clerks and Navs. Screw Minot, how would we man Laughlin or Cannon if everything were by preference. Didn't some general try this in the 90s? I've heard some old hats bitching about getting superFAIPed because they couldn't leave until enough people wanted to PCS to their base.

Can't remember the last time I saw the flight doc or probably even the friggin optometrist and I wasn't asked if I was thinking of huring myself - but only in the past 30 days.

I signed the ADSC several years ago then when I was at my white jet tour I called AFSC and asked them to create a CMS case to remove the ADSC once I found out about this. It took 2 days and my ADSC was reset at UPT expiration. They were very familiar and the dudes I know that called had 100% PK.

Yawn. Didn't read the full report because I couldn't find it on mypers. Granted I didn't try too hard. Is anyone really surprised? TToad said some airframes in particular are hurting. I'll address the ones in most familiar with - Eagles and Hogs. So you're telling me dudes won't commit when their airframe is either on the chopping block or rumored to be the next one on the block? Oh and UAV take rates are low - read these forums much? No surprises there. If there is any reaction to all of this I bet the bonus has to go up (sooner rather than later) and/or UPT commitments go up - granted that won't help for 10+ yrs. What, some authorization bill caps it at 25K - that can be changed with the stroke of a pen if they're desperate enough. Kind of like DADT, the Airbus tanker or the 500+ raptors we'd buy: all written in black and white...until they weren't anymore. What the hell else can AFPC do - close crappy bases, reduce Ops Tempo, limit workdays to 10 hours and cut queep in half? They'd have a better chance of getting a $1M bonus approved than tackling even one of those. Like I said - no surprises here. It will be mildly interesting to see the spin our senior leaders put on it. My guess is we'll see complete silence or some ball wash about how we face manning challenges everywhere, fiscal challenges, leaner force, blah blah blah.

Maybe we looked a different units but that is not a universal truth. I got hired this summer and had another option as well. I'm not talking about HO either. Some others aren't hiring, like Luke unless you want HO hanging over your head. However, there are jobs out there.

Interesting. OG/CC at my unit told me it was more of a matter of if than when - as in will it make it in FY15 or not. Granted it was my interview so I didn't dig for details, but there was also no incentive to lie as I was not being hired as a dude that would be bonus eligible anyway. The guard and reserves are having issues with manning too - hiring freeze of sorts due to the 8/10-year ADSC shift, airline hiring, etc. Is it really a surprise they would throw money at the problem?

Final take rate numbers out for FY14 yet?