drewpey

We discussed this a page or two ago. There is reason for and against, but only Coons knows the answer to that...ask him. Asking private citizens repeatedly isn't going to get you anywhere. We can only speculate, but in the end what he wants doesn't matter.

RIP Republican talking points. Have to see what they cling to now. My money is they flip the script and start banging the "thanks Obama" drum. Cant wait to see who is in the hot seat on today's Meet the Press, Face the Nation and State of the Union.

Assuming this is about the FISA warrant, the evidence isn't even available to us to make an informed criticism of the FBIs actions. I'm all for having a close examination of the FISA process and how we approve things, because I think a lot of rules exist outside the knowledge of the public. We have been provided cherry-picked data points from one side of the political spectrum that flopped when scrutinized. The cherry-picked response to the R side was sidelined. We are currently ignorant of the entire truth, but it seems folks are content to jump to their conclusions...much like the Trump/Russia investigation. Just because folks don't like what the outcome was, or how the outcome was achieved, doesn't mean it was wrong or even illegal. It's best to wait for the facts to unravel themselves and we can have an honest discussion based on the facts.

Given the email investigation and the frustration with the dossier/FISA warrant, the FBI is being dragged to center-stage of politics despite their best efforts. I think the Senator sees the report dropping just prior to the election as continuing down that path, which is not a good idea. The GOP is already prepping their constituents to discount whatever Mueller presents, regardless of content from their messaging about "collusion isn't a crime" as well as trying to undermine trust in the FBI. It's working well as I can see here. I can see Caseys concerns, but given what I've read about Mueller's reputation as business-only, political considerations will have no bearing on the investigation. He will push out his report when he is well ready, regardless of anyone's timelines.

Sanctions targeted towards Russian oligarchs and leadership money laundering. Stop accepting kids of Russian oligarchs into western universities. Expand NATO east. Sell more patriot systems and F-35s to counter Russian influence. Harden our election systems. Properly fund the state department. Invest more in renewable energies to minimize their leverage with oil exports. Combat climate change to minimize their warm-water ports. Eastern European countries are heavily dependant on Russian oil. Western not as much as they are able to diversify.

Democrats don’t want open borders. The GOP website has a nice article outlining the Democratic stance over the past several years: https://gop.com/dems-claim-to-be-pro-border-security-but-criticize-a-border-wall-rsr/ In 2013 a bipartisan senate bill was passed 68/32 and was ultimately shelved in the R-controlled House for not being comprehensive enough. Several of the topics in that bill share current-day R talking points, to include more border security, expanding/upgrading the current fence, as well as shifting to a more merit-based system, and changing the lottery to focus on those already in the country, vs those who have never lived here. Democrats have maintained they are in favor of reasonable border security throughout the Trump presidency, and are willing to work with Trump. Trump wants his wall, and to impose limits on legal immigration. Democrats are in favor of legal immigration, and don’t want the wall. "We believe in border security. We want to make it work, we want to make it real, not just symbolic. But we believe in it. If our Republican colleagues and the president engage in good faith in that negotiation -- without unreasonable demands like the absurdly expensive and ineffective border wall that publicly many Republicans oppose and privately many more do -- I do not doubt that we can reach an agreement on DACA that's acceptable to both sides." ~Schumer, 3 Jan 18 Democrats don’t want socialism. What I typically hear is that democrats want to turn us into a socialist country and we will inevitably end up like Venezuela, or many of the other countries full-blown socialism has claimed. While democrats do advocate for platform policies with a “socialist flavor”, I have yet to see a democratic politician basing their platform on seizing control of private companies, property or production for the greater good. Democrats simply want to provide a better healthcare, social safety nets and education to get people back on their feet and continue producing tax revenue for the country. No one should go broke for losing the health lottery. Many modern countries are able to juggle a capitalist economy and still maintain a more affordable healthcare system. Bernie was able to motivate a lot of younger voters but Democrats turned away from him and his policies to a less popular, more vanilla Democratic candidate (she who shall not be named). Democratic voters are interested in some of those policies, but are still haven’t gone full-Bernie. Democrats don’t want to run up debt…just like Republicans, but they will when it suits their purposes…just like republicans. For Rs to run around claiming to be the party of fiscal responsibility is a bit disingenuous. The parties just argue how to spend the money. Democrats don’t want to gut the military. Many folks seem to think democratic politicians harbor some resentment towards them and just want to gut us out of existence. The recent gutting of the military was mainly due to sequestration, which was a bipartisan failure. Obama did draw down the military, but mainly because he was trying to exit (unsuccessfully) from Iraq and scale back Afghanistan. Currently both parties favor a DoD audit along with a predictable long-term budget.

I am participating in the discussion, and presenting facts to support my stances. Some people feel attacked by facts and when confronted with hypocrisy, that's not my fault. Politically speaking the military is an echo chamber. So many republicans go around making snide remarks about democrats because they think everyone in ear shot has the same views they do. I've sat quiet for many years, and now I'm to the point where I'm willing to engage with most folks on politics if they want to openly talk about it. I'm finding that the military is filled with a lot of loud and politically uninformed people. I have yet to flip someone politically, but I have found that educating people of the facts, and explaining the democratic stance at least softens their views, and makes them realize there is in fact some common ground for D, R and yes...even Libertarians to agree on. Those in charge just want to divide us, say that Democrats want open borders (not true), to turn us into socialism (not true), run up huge debt (not true) and to gut the military (again, not true). They benefit from the fact that those that listen to them aren't going to seek out the truth in their words and actions (and also that Democrats suck at unity and messaging, but we're working on it). Those that become more entrenched in their views and use their interactions with me to verify their preconceived notions of democrats weren't going to do so differently if I used flowery language. I guess I could be gentler for some of you, but it might be better for everyone if people (as the republicans say) stop being snowflakes.

Democrats were wrong. As was Bush before them. We've given them plenty of opportunity, but Russia has demonstrated they cannot be trusted time and again. We should work to exile them, starting with enforcing the overwhelming bipartisan sanctions that were approved by the House and Senate. Spread the Magnitsky Act around the world, and turn the oligarchs into the pariahs they long to be. Keep squeezing until something changes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/russia-is-our-adversary/552962/

Word-for-word can be said for Fox News. Anyone who gets their news from editorialized panel talk shows that try to condense complex situations into sound bytes is going to be horribly misinformed. "They always try" is such a cop out. Where is the Republican party of pre-2016? What happened that made you fall in love with Russia? Was it their invasion of Crimea? Their involvement in Syria? Them violating North Korean Sanctions? Meddling in our democracy? Harboring Edward Snowden? Feeding propaganda to undermine the west through Wikileaks? Violating nuclear treaties? Please tell me so I can begin to wrap my feeble liberal mind around it. I guess I should just learn to shrug off foreign interference in our democratic process to be more "American"...it's what the founding fathers would have wanted. You guys are beyond hope.

What proof do you want? I can't even find a reputable source that says they DIDN'T fuck with us in 2016. Republicans just want to say "eh, it happens...it wasn't that bad". Ask yourself: where do YOU draw that line? Do we wait for the entire population to lose faith in the voting system and the democratic process before we act? They will keep at it at every election until our elections are as rigged as theirs. It's not about "her"; it's about US.

I completely agree. We should all set aside our partisan differences and recognize the ample proof that Russia attacked our democracy and respond with appropriate action. Without doing so they have won.

Saying "pissing on hookers" shows you haven't even read the dossier. There are lots of details in the dossier beyond the kompromat, and it's not very hard to see how some parts would have been corroborated by a separate investigation...particularly when you look at the details on Page and Manafort...given the FBI had been watching them for years, and likely had their own sources on what they were up to. As for the emails...Jr didn't need or want the emails. Why get your hands dirty when they are willing to do it for you? It was public knowledge that she had been hacked previously and Russia was involved. No one had to mention the elephant in the room. Russia wanted the meeting to make clear what they wanted in exchange for the upcoming efforts...repeal of the Magnitsky Act (Orphans). As for Hillary...I'm sure she appreciates your attention, but you should really stop letting her live rent-free in your head and accept that Trump won the election.

Also they tried to issue a bipartisan statement on their actions, but turtle threatened to call him out for partisan politics to help Hillary win. I don't understand this false equivalence. Hillary campaign and the DNC (as well as Republican sources) funded Fusion GPS...a private company. That private company hired a private individual (a foreign national) to gather raw intel, and he went out and gathered intel through consensual interviews and discussions legally. The lawyer was representing Russia and was offering illegally hacked emails to a political party....are you seriously ok with that? You are comparing apples to oranges. What's next...we are going to have politicians touring outside the US to get financial and intelligence support from other countries. The DNC should start hitting up all our disenfranchised allies and the "liberal EU" and have them pitch in efforts to undermine the next election...just make it a total shit show. This shows the nearsightedness of the republican party. It helps you out now, but that path doesn't lead anywhere good, and we should nip it in the bud now.

From the "DEEP STATE": https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tillerson-warns-u-s-not-better-prepared-new-russian-election-n845396 And some throwback thursday for everyone: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/election-assistance-commission-republicans-congress/516462/

It's not like we've got anything else better to do.

Kidnapping is a process...

How many presidents will we have to endure coming into office and wanting to build a bridge with Russia? It's time to treat Russia as the aggressor it is. Enact the sanctions, let them continue to economically wither. It's infuriating a country with a GDP half that of California is left unchecked. R's love Putin now, but wait until the 2018 elections. If you were Putin and you wanted to create the maximum amount of chaos within the US...how would you tinker with the 2018 elections?

It's a bit premature to say the dossier was a nothing-burger. It is a composition of raw intel and discussions that had occurred, and not a list of factual statements. It's got some things right, some things wrong, but there is still much of it few will know the accuracy of until the investigation completes. The dossier was likely just another data point for the FBI investigation. The thing the dossier may have had that the FBI intel didn't was specifically identifying Page. With 702 warrants they likely knew something was going on, but if the Russians didn't specifically identify Page or contact him where they could unmask...the FBI wouldn't be able to identify Page. The dossier would give them that piece for their puzzle. Just a long-shot theory, but its a lot more believable than a bunch of career LEOs suddenly deciding to betray their oaths to support and defend the constitution and conduct some political coup against republicans by spying on a former trump official repeatedly while at the same time having a public investigation going on-and-off-and-on against the primary Democratic nominee...but don't let facts and reason get in the way of a good conspiracy theory. The beauty about this whole thing is if the FBI was careless and went about this process improperly...Page is in the clear as he has a strong case to have any/all evidence gathered via this process thrown out of court. Heck he could probably even get the ACLU to pay his legal fees.

Just to clarify, I think he was being watched or under investigation as far back as 2014 for Russia-related concerns. Everything I've read says the FISA didn't start until 2016, and was followed up by three renewals, one occurring under trump's own administration. The lede being buried here is that the FBI followed the legal process to convince a FISA judge (edit:4 seperate FISA judges) that Page was working as a foreign agent. The initial application the FBI convinces the judge they will likely find evidence, but for renewals they have to prove they corroborated the initial application, and that further evidence will be attained...THREE times. Rumor is that the funding was in the initial application. Nunes just went on Fox News and admitted he didn't read the FISA applications...only Gowdy did. Also worth mentioning is Gowdy is headed for the exit instead of standing his ground...he came out today and downplayed the memo, and refused to go on the record saying he had confidence in the memo. In fact, only 4/13 republicans on the committee that produced the memo would say they had confidence in it. Best of luck republicans, on to the next meme while we clean up this mess with the truth.

1. Welp you could ask DHS since they notified the states of the voting system breaches, or even the CIA or FBI. You could also pour over the many emails that wikileaks, a well-known front for the russian government, released from the DNC. You can keep moving the goalposts all you want...until a guy named Ivan comes into your home and shits on your desk you will continue to say you demand more proof despite it being everywhere. 2. We do a lot of shit I would never be ok with other countries reciprocating to us because we are the biggest, baddest country on the block. I don't give a fuck about your moral equivalence. Each country acts in their own self-interest. We need to make it clear that it's not in Russia's self-interest to fuck with us. 3. Irrelevant 4. It would have been. You'd be screaming about dead people and illegal immigrants voting, and you'd probably even say the russian hacking benefited Hillary (which is already a Republican talking point) It happened, face it. Like I said...Russia isn't pushing for any political party to win...they just want disorder, infighting, and for people to lose faith in the democratic system. This is just the tip of the iceberg unless we fix it. You can count us out, but we'll see what happens in November. Lots of (R)ats jumping off the ship lately.

Well I guess you can unilaterally define "hacking" how you'd like, but the rest of the world disagrees with you...even Trump himself. I know it's been a busy news year, but try and keep up. "As far as hacking, I think it was Russia" ~Donald J. Trump, 11 Jan 2017 Russia hacked the DNC, RNC (no success), and attemped to hack at least 21 states election systems with varying degrees of success. Should we just sit on our thumbs until we have verified proof they changed a vote and then decide to act? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/09/23/what-we-know-about-the-21-states-targeted-by-russian-hackers/?utm_term=.5b2e53a5cdaf https://time.com/5124313/cia-mike-pompeo-russia-midterm-elections/ https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/jan/11/donald-trump/trump-says-russians-were-unable-hack-republican-na/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/22/electronic-voting-state-hacking-russian-government-cyber-actors/ https://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/ https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article191857354.html https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article174950031.html https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article157039299.html You guys beat Democrats over the head for years when Obama said Russia wasn't our enemy and the "cold war was over" when debating Romney. Democrats were wrong, but now Republicans have done a 180 and are content to sit idly by while Russia continues to influence our democratic process. You can try to act like we are being alarmist, but if Saudi Arabia used money and hacking to support Hillary and she had won the election, there would be a civil war going on right now. You need to take a step back, remove the politics and realize what foreign entities are doing to our country, and the long-term damage it could have. We need to sanction Russia into the stone age, and sit down and have an honest discussion about our antiquated voting systems.

I feel like Republicans will stand in a monsoon and tell me it's clear skies and 80F outside. Politics aside, Russia hacked our elections and has faced no consequences. Everyone in the know is warning they will continue to do so. Right now it's fun because your team is winning, but Russia doesn't care about republicans or democrats in the long run. They want the US in disorder and for us to cede power around the world, which is happening everywhere you look if you're willing to see it. This place never ceases to amaze me...on one thread you've got salty guys willing to crucify their USAF leadership for being shitty leaders and not caring for their people, while at the same time in another thread cheering for the chaos happening in our government for the same leadership transgressions on a larger scale.

Surely you won't mind if I source check your "unbiased facts in public record"...can you specify what "fake" dossier claims were used as evidence in a secret FISA warrant request? Are you concerned that the FBI was able to produce enough evidence to convince a FISA court there was probable cause Carter Page was involved in criminal activity with foreign agents? Law enforcement gets leads from everywhere...why would the dossier be treated any different? Given Steele's background, he was likely a credible source to the FBI. Simpson testified to congress that the dossier was taken seriously because of how many details corroborated the ongoing FBI investigation. The FBI did their job of investigating and requesting a warrant through a FISA court. If you have a complaint about the FISA court process and what their standard for probable cause is, then by all means lets have a public discussion about what power we've given these courts. To say the FBI broke the rules and somehow pulled the wool over a FISA court judge who was appointed by SCOTUS Chief Justice is a very strong charge with little supporting evidence. Nunes is trying to drive a narrative that the FBI is tainted and being used for political purposes...which is rich when you compare the 2016 coverage of Clinton's emails vs Russian interference. For all the "collusion" the DNC did to dig up the Russian interference they sure did a bad job of actually weaponizing it for political purposes. The memo will come out in a few days, and it will be red meat for you and the rest of the (R) base. Crafted by one side to support a narrative, while conveniently leaving out the full picture. In the end the FBI convinced a judge there was probable cause Carter was up to no good, and were allowed to look into it. I see no reason to doubt the system worked the way it was intended.