HeloDude

You really don’t think that Americans are ‘that’ short sighted? We’re impatient as hell and we agree on very little of the issues being made today in the political arena…and that’s probably mostly by design by the politicians on the left and the right, but it’s true all the same. One of the few things that cuts across the majority of Americans is the economy. The left is doubling down on “green energy” vs drilling more here at home and that argument might work during better economic times, but not when the economy isn’t doing so great. Again, even Biden knows this…he wants to not completely piss off his support from green energy folks, but he’s not willing to speed up political suicide by calling for less oil/higher prices than necessary at the pump. And asking Saudi Arabia (not really what I would call a strong democracy/proponent of freedom) to pump more is a joke. The argument that Americans will happily pay $6 a gallon of ask will destroy the left in November. Unfortunately the Republicans at the federal level haven’t been that great on doing what is necessary—cutting at home spending, cutting the military, increasing personal freedom. The situation in Ukraine, while horrible, is being mostly used as a distraction here in the US. Either Russia will lose/largely leave with their tail between their legs (doubtful, at least anytime soon) or Americans will become a lot less interested come this summer.

Give it a little time man. I remember when the vast majority were for invading Iraq, even after no WMDs were found (I was one of those back then btw). I also remember when the vast majority were for forcing businesses to close 2 years ago due to a virus that the vast majority of people would survive without even needing hospital care. When the recession hits, the vast majority will not be ok with $6+ a gallon.

Spin it however you need to man. If you think I’m immoral for not wanting the US to get involved with a war on the other side of the globe, then so be it.

If Russia invading Ukraine is the equivalent to Auschwitz, then why hasn’t Europe went to war with Russia to stop them? Or were you just bringing up Auschwitz as an example of an atrocity that has nothing to do with what is going on currently in Eastern Europe? I agree Auschwitz was horrendous, but likewise so was the Armenian genocide, Rwanda, slavery in the US, on and on. I guess we should thank the Soviets and Stalin for liberating those death camps and doing the brunt of ending WW2 in Europe? And as for the atrocities committed in the USSR… I definitely don’t like what Russia is doing and I think Putin is a bad dude…but I think Xi in China is a bad dude, and I don’t like what they do either. When China invades Taiwan I won’t like that either…but I won’t be calling for ending all economic activities with China. Sorry man, but that’s just where I’m at. We do business with a lot of countries with corrupt governments and that don’t really protect freedom. Ever been deployed to the Middle East? What I would like to think the majority of us on here agree on is that the US should severely cut regulations that hamper business (oil, manufacturing, etc) in the US. If one good thing has come out of this horrible situation is that it has put the pro-big government regulation types on defense, especially the environmental leftists who the Dems can’t seem to upset. But just like Covid, when things start going worse for politicians in the US due to unpopular policies, they’ll quickly pivot away and find a new issue. Politicians aren’t nearly as pro-Ukraine as they are anti-Russia, and when Americans get really upset with negative impacts here at home, the politicians will adjust. This is why Biden won’t cut off the oil…it’s all political theater.

Ohhhhh…”we’re not there yet”. Translation—you’re not willing to sacrifice more “yet”. But you’re willing to call out others for their lack of morality if they don’t want to sacrifice what you’re willing to do so now. Sorry dude…you literally brought morality into this argument of what someone is willing to do vs not do, not me. You also said we should not do business with those countries who do business with Russia…and yet you voluntarily engage in business with those countries. I don’t care whether someone buys Russian vodka or not. And as for not wanting to buy chips made in China, are you saying you can’t live a life in the US without buying such items? Or just that the hardship would be too uncomfortable for you/your family to bear? What are you going to do when China invades Taiwan? You’re free to walk back your original morality argument if you’d like…

If that’s what you got out of my original post, then I have to explain it better…here it goes: If Ratner is going to say that his morality is superior to others because he is wants the US to do X to Russia and wants the American people to sacrifice Y due to economic sanctions (when others like me don’t desire these options), then I expect him to voluntarily sacrifice more than what is a minor inconvenience in his daily life. Ratner says that we should stop doing business with countries (ie Mexico) who are still ops normal with Russia and yet Ratner himself is not willing to make such personal sacrifices on his own. You can live a life in the US without ever purchasing anything from Mexico. If you disagree, then that’s fine…but this is the equivalent to those who want AR-15s banned in the US but is willing to get one themselves and/or hire someone with an AR-15 to provide their private security. Another example are those who want SUVs using traditional gas engines banned, but who also continues to use them until there is such a ban. If Ratner wants to play the “moral superiority” game, then he has to be willing to accept the fact that he picks and chooses as well, and thus is not better than anyone else.

I’m not the one telling people that their morals are lacking if they don’t support action against Russia for invading Ukraine. So if you’re going to ask where my personal lines are then I’m going to do the same to you. The difference is that I don’t care whether or not you support action against X country but apparently you care if I don’t support said actions. So I ask you to lead by example—be the change that you want to see happen. If you’re not voluntarily willing to sacrifice what you want the government to force us all to sacrifice, then your argument holds zero weight.

So why do you think Biden is not threatening Mexico economically to pressure them to as you suggest? Also, have you personally stopped purchasing items from Mexico? Or is it the same with you enjoying buying items from China? You’re talking a big game, but when it comes to you personally making sacrifices, I’m not seeing it.

What does “merely comply with them” mean, exactly? Mexico is still ops normal economically with Russia, are they not?

Mexico is not sanctioning Russia…should we end all economic activities with Mexico?

Thought so, thanks.

Thank you for showing your moral superiority to the rest of us. But I’d rather the US sit this one out. Your argument has been used over and over the better part of a century and look where it’s gotten us. “But this time is different…” By the way, you never answered my question as to if you have or have not bought anything made in China over the last few months? I imagine you haven’t…since you’re morally superior and would never financially assist a tyrannical regime like the CCP. Fortunately the Dems and Biden will just talk a big game and not actually do much…they know the politics of getting us involved with a war against Russia is not good. Hell, Biden won’t even cut off their oil because he’s afraid of the economic impact. But hey, get rid of that Russian vodka in the liquor stores!

I get a little pumped up when I watch war movies as well…and then realize that war sucks and it’s best to not get involved unless absolutely necessary (this definitely isn’t necessary). As I mentioned 1-2 weeks ago, the war hawks in the US are definitely out there…even some on this site.

The latter. War in Ukraine actually gives them a bit of an excuse as to why gas is a lot higher than under Trump (even before Covid)…but it won’t work. I still don’t see how the Dems keep the House. Their chances for keeping the Senate right now are 50/50 at best. Does anyone really see things getting better here at home by the later summer/early fall?

So you’re suggesting that when China invades Taiwan that we end all economic interaction with China? China doesn’t “follow the rules” now (assuming the rules involve not being tyrannical to your own population and not threatening Taiwan) and yet I’d be willing to bet you have bought something made in China within the last few months.

I don’t know Lloyd, the French are assholes.

This is a joke, right? “John Kerry fears Russia-Ukraine war will distract from climate change” https://www.foxnews.com/politics/john-kerry-russia-ukraine-war-climate-change

I appreciate you taking the time to respond—good debate. Agree to disagree. Back to the Ukraine stuff.

That’s most definitely still my answer. You can’t stand for the values of individual liberty when you’re literally using the opposite to keep those values. Birth rates—if they were to be on a serious decline, they can eventually have a very negative impact to society, right? That negative impact could very well in turn negatively impact the US’s ability to promote liberty and freedom across the world. So should the government force women to have children in order to set the birth rate to what the government needs/desires? You can laugh all you want, but if you’re willing to force an innocent adult male to stand in front of gun fire for what the state says is the security of the country (ummm Vietnam…ugh), then you have to ask yourself what else the state can force upon innocent citizens under the same concept of “security of the country”. This is a tough conversation to have because the majority of the country doesn’t want to believe that the power of the state to enforce X program to protect the country (which they support)…that this same power could be used to go against something they disagree with under the same desire for security. Just because this below was ordered by the state for the security of its nation, doesn’t change what it really was… https://apnews.com/article/tokyo-ap-top-news-cabinets-world-war-ii-japan-3dc00af0e6c618791eb4683d6807de64

Thanks for the response. What it comes down to is that the vast majority of people are only willing to stand up for their principles when it causes them very little (if any) change to their life style. Hence why right now the US and Europe is still buying oil/gas from Russia. I have zero problems admitting that I’ll continue buying products made in China after Taiwan is invaded. Doing so doesn’t mean you support the invasion anymore than buying fuel from Saudi Arabia equates to your support of their oppression of women. Now if I can get the same/similar product for close to the same price from somewhere else, then sure. This is what happens with massive global trade and being willing to partner with nations who don’t share foundational common ideals. To be fair, we’re getting further away in this country from sharing foundational common ideals.

Well…I mean I didn’t say that requiring an ID to vote is Jim Crow 2.0 like the Dems, or that our entire country is inherently racist, but sure, the libertarians are the weirdos. I’ll never apologize for being for individual liberty, and conscription is anything but that. Remove the emotion, and ask yourself why you think it’s ok when the state forces you do something when you’re just minding your own business and not hurting anyone vs when an individual forces you to do something?

Did he want to serve or fight—yes or no? If not, then most definitely. As for “preserving a way of life and a set of ideals”…according to whom? What if your way of life/ideals is to not be forced to fight in a war? I take it none of you commenting have read the Reason article I linked…

We disagree. Again, either you have freedom and liberty to decide not to do a certain job/fight in a war, or you don’t.

Korematsu vs United States I guess the imprisonment of Japanese Americans was cool too…you know, because of the Supreme Court. You can be for freedom and liberty or you can be for conscription—but you can’t be for both.

Like I said…the US is not some bastion of liberty that our songs have made us believe.