brabus

Does the no more than 180 day out requirement not start until submit is clicked in vmpf? Wondering if you can start the ball rolling with the ISR, get the first 1288 endorsement and voluntary separation brief, but then sit on the "click submit" part until < 180 days from requested PC date? Want to lead turn paperwork as much as possible, but not end up screwing myself over by getting something kicked back because I'm still > 180 days from desiredate DOS.

Marty - does having a DOS established, but still on AD, hurt you with getting a loan? You're still getting a paycheck, so why does the lender care...especially if you have follow on employment? Seems weird considering a civilian gets a loan and the lender would have no idea if they're about to leave their job a month after closing...there's no telling, so why would an established DOS hurt you?

Haven't lived there, but after multiple TDYs there and hanging out with several friends who do, the area east of the mountains (Mountain Green/Morgan area) is pretty awesome. Friends are 15 min driveway to ski lift, 2 min from trailhead, 20 min drive to the squadron/Ogden, 20 min to Farmington (which has a bunch of restaurants, shops, etc). You'll be able to get a .3-.5 acre lot for the most part unless you want to spend more money to build on a 1-1.5 acre lot. Anything larger than that lot size and you're looking at a further commute. It's a good area to have the feel of living in the mountains/rural, but a fairly large city is only a 20 min drive away (and blocked from your view by the moutains...a bonus in my book).

Don't think that will go well in reality. Guys get 2-3 sorties/wk as it is right now, and that's the min they should get. Going to a 3 day schedule puts them at 2 best case (and more likely 1). Additionally, unless it's going to be no shit only 3 fly days/wk for the entire RF exercise, how does a SQ fill SOF, Top 3, VDO, etc. when a single body is now committed for 2.5 days (I'll assume debrief prep/execution is .5 days)? I don't think that will be as easy as some might think. Lastly, if you go to only 3 fly days/wk for the entire exercise, you've lost 4 vuls at minimum of what could be great training (assuming inputs above are taken into account). Other than the last week of AI phase (where the 3 day model exists), WIC does substantially more difficult scenarios with same day debrief/execution. RF should not reinvent the wheel/add another day for something that is not as complicated. The debrief problem can simply be solved by decreasing who can talk (mentioned above: link manager, ATC, etc. can shut the fuck up, they have nothing value added for the group at large), adhering to strict timelines, and accepting the fact a few MINOR things may left out in the quest for a timeline, BUT those minor things have zero impact on the overall LLs. For example, we spend about 3 times longer on a shot val than it should take...stop rewinding, stop standing up front and asking 6-9 repeat data questions trying to nats ass the perfect pairing...if you can't figure it out right away, then fucking pk miss it and move along, there's about a 95% chance that one Pk Miss does not alter the LLs that should come out of the mission. I think some bullshit pride thing drives a lot of shot val lengthening...don't get butt hurt if you get killed out when you may not have if another 45" was spent by Mig 1 tap dancing around. Do things like that and shot val gets much shorter, LLs still come out, but most importantly you have more time to develop/discuss those LL...the shot val should not take 85% of the debrief time. Edit: Provide enough ICADs machines that dudes have access pre-debrief to pre-pair shots. NE tried to do this the last time I was there, good idea, but they only had 2 computers available. If RF had about 5 computers to pre-pair, dudes could get their shit squared away prior, and the debrief takes much less time. Time spent pre-pairing is double time saved in the debrief.

Absolutely, but not in the current climate with a complete lack of will to win, massive amounts of CYA, dickless leadership abounds, etc. Tac Airlifter nailed it - when are we going to start wanting to win again and start re-thinking the way we are playing this game? Until we stop this bullshit idea of "we're not at war" war, it will not get better.

We already have several platforms shooting a ~$22K weapon...fairly cheap way to kill shitheads/Hilux in comparison to the other precision guided options. The current manned and unmanned ISR doing the HVI hunting/killing mission are very good at it. The only thing missing right now is faster transit speed, but it's only a matter of very little time until we field an RPA that can do 350 kts in transit, problem solved. I'm not so sure the proverbial we aren't trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. I don't see us not completing the kill chain because of a lack in capability from an MQ-9, U-28, etc. What is going to change if we introduce something additional? Because the number in the win column is pretty large, and I think the only major, limiting factor on its rate of growth is asset availability, not a large capability gap.

1. Too many players with too many "Red Flag-isms" (i.e. self-inflicted pile-ons to 11-214). I've been to 6 RF-A and 2 RF-N. The one's at Alaska are far better because they don't try to jam way too many jets in the airspace and they use 11-214/don't arbitrarily add on. I get it that we want to get everyone a swing at the bat, but the training factor is very watered down when you have a 20 ship SEAD package where 8 will do (as an example). It is deconfliction flag to an extent - and that is not good tactical training. Mitigate this by allowing less squadrons (may not be possible, I get it) and/or potentially lengthening vuls to allow multiple pushes....or instead of one long vul, do 2x back to back morning vuls and 2x back to back afternoon vuls. 4 vuls a day, but close enough that it really is 2x goes for MX, just with 45 min in between launch of one 4 ship and the other. Debrief each separately so the first guys aren't waiting another 1-2 hours for debrief to start. Run the debrief efficiently - stick to timeline limits, shot val rules, etc...you miss a shot by > 10", fuck off we're not going back. 2. Brecky hit PR - the CAF sucks ass at PR...probably the thing the CAF should be the most embarrassed about it's lack luster performance in...and I'm looking at every fighter pilot out there, I don't care what you fly, you have a role in supporting PR events, so put some damn work into supporting the PR plan, not being a shitty/useless OSC, etc. A pre-planned PR vul can speed things along to not drag out a training vul, but real time shoot downs can at least exercise initial OSC/AMC duties, and the pre-plan can be the next day to get that guy (i.e. for range time you can't shoot a guy down 30 min into vul west of the container and have Pedro push from El/Cal, I get it). No tanker - shit happens, wave the "ALR exceeded, I'd abort in real life" card and then go execute for training. Copy all, it'll be 2x60s and some Sandys against the world...and they'll probably get shot, but there's still training to be had. 3. Focus on basic integration in OCA/DCA/DT vuls. Johnny CAF isn't going to solve the F2T2EA problem for ALRS, in fact, he's going to fuck up the mission planning whole sale and lead an abortion the next day. That's not his fault - in real world, he'll be handed a plan, and he won't be the guy leading the whole thing anyways. Leave "next gen" problem solving to WIC advanced integration phase. Let the CAF figure out how to put a cohesive plan together that defeats the Nellis IADs, destroys appropriate-to-the-scenario targets, and gets everyone back home. I agree the threat level needs to be increased, but the point is basic integration...it is trying to do too much and has negative effects when we try to force the "WWIII" problems on the line CAF guy. There's a reason not every CAF dude is read into CW, etc...he doesn't need to be, the right people need to be who will be planning/have a unique understanding of the capabilities and can leverage those with their squadrons come execution day. 4. Airdrop guys - If they're not getting enough LFE training (are you guys really being left out of RF-N that much?), get them in there. It's not difficult to add an air assault, SOF resupply, etc. into a couple OCA vuls per week. I'm not saying it needs to be a full on JFE vul, but at least get a couple MAF/AFSOC assets doing a resupply on the west side of Belted or something along those lines. It'll be great training for them, but also for the SEAD and ESC guys who have to keep SA on a C-130 at 300 ft, protect him, and have a gas/TOS plan to not lose coverage. And at worst, the C-130 does its mission, there is zero interference with the rest of the war raging overhead and if he gets shots, well there's going to be some good lessons learned for the CAF guys who probably didn't have a good plan to begin with. To minimize the "everyone gets a trophy" thing, don't do MAF and PR in the same vul. Watch out for that dick head Roland guy. 5. Three weeks is long - but if you keep doing three weeks, consider making the third week dissimilar BFM/ACM week. When that square peg doesn't fit the round hole of airspace scheduling, etc. for every jet out there, make some CT-ish DCA vuls, i.e. smaller vuls where nobody is doing a MC upgrade, you can have a North and South vul, etc. Northern Edge in AK does a lot of this...i.e. first vul of the day is the WWIII problem, second vul is all CT. Some squadron gets tagged for MC, they're given the assets and range space/time, go from there to plan/execute whatever you want within some constraints (for safety, etc.) Airboss can make sure it doesn't get out of hand/go down some road it shouldn't. There will still be a lot of learning, but with less of the "RF bullshit" attached, and everyone is less "burned out" at the end.

Several guys I know did AFIT en route to TPS. If TPS is a goal/something you're interested in, then AFIT is reasonable after your second-ish flying assignment. There is a program that allows you to commission, go straight to get a masters (civilian schools as well as AFIT), and then go to UPT after that. The latter puts you behind your peers and likely closes doors in the flying world...but hey, you got that shiny diploma on your wall (know two guys who did that route and would not repeat it).

FWIW, both the 16s and 15s don't sunset until mid 2040s...so nobody should make the decision based on longevity. Both will be around longer than a guy in UPT right now will be flying fighters. Now if we could afford 2000 Raptors and 2000 Fat Amys it might be a different story, but that's not reality.

As one data point, my T-38 drop had 5/6 fighters...the very next drop had 1/4 fighters. Not a track select, but shows how much the pendulum can swing in a matter of 2-3 weeks between assignment nights. You can't predict, all you can do is work your ass off, have a good attitude, and the rest is luck and timing.

One has a nav, one doesn't....choose wisely.

The B-52 community flying with the Raider callsign probably really struck a nerve with the Doolittle Raiders because several of their bros ended up executed in China...what a slap in the face to those men that the Buff community would dare fly with the callsign Raider. Buy you know, yay heritage!........wait, that didn't happen because none of those Doolittle Raiders were a bunch of whiny SNAPs. Sounds like some of your friends need to get over themselves. Not a bomber guy, but I think the name pays a great tribute to not only a historic bomber raid in WW2, but also to the bros who were lost in 2008. Seeing it any other way is beyond ridiculous and extremely self-centered.

Bullshit - amendments are essentially the same as new orders. They have to accept all amendments. In fact, I'd say about half of my PCS orders haven't initially had my dependents on them, but the amendment adding my family was all that was needed to get all the dependent entitlements (same overall order number). Stop talking to Airman dumbass and go straight to the first officer in the chain. If they can't produce official AFI /JTR that backs their side up, they have to concede. If they don't at that point, may be time to talk to your B-Course Flt/CC and ask for some higher level help.

FWIW, I know a few dudes who flew fighters between 12-20 yrs, then went to law school, med school, and the "big times" in the financial industry. I personally could not imagine doing something like med school after 10+ years in the AF, but it's clearly doable. On the flip side, your chance of going through med school/residency and then flying in the military is pretty low simply based on age/timing. Suggest picking the career you want the most - hard choice, but in the end, you should be able to sort out which is priority #1. Either go to med school and fill the flying void with GA, or go fly for the military and potentially scratch the "med itch" later.

Totally worth it - I never considered any other path. I've about had it with all the bullshit and my bag of fucks to give is about empty, but I'd still make the same decision if I rewound the clock 11 years. Despite the negatives, there are a lot of great things about flying in the AF. But, everyone's experience is different and time/luck/who your leadership is all matters and can make or break an assignment being an awesome or an assignment being a prison sentence as Jaded pointed out.

A break from queep, the BS, etc. and true ability to focus on tactics/the job you actually care about. Not a break from working long hours, stress, etc. Seen several TAMI guys return to fly, FAIPs, etc. get shoved into BMC jobs shortly after MQT. Also seen the same thing with previous fighter dudes who went non-flying for an assignment (ALO, etc.) It didn't happen to everyone in that boat, but it happened to a lot. I don't think that's right, but that's reality at least in some places and I've seen it happen enough to warrant my skepticism. But like I caveated, there certainly will be those who avoid this crap, but it's also not right to lead prospective dudes in this situation into a false sense that if they crossflow, they can expect multiple fighter assignments, they'll be an IP in 3 years only working in the fighter squadron the entire assignment, etc. And yes, there is certainly a bit of skepticism on my part in general just based off of general AF shenanigans and a consistent track record of fucking people over. Completely agree! My intent was just to add some info so guys go eyes wide open into this with a some realistic expectations. I don't think any of this should stop a dude from trying, but at least he knows what he's possibly getting himself into. Never know what someone's family desires are, are they willing to sign extra ADSC for this, etc. Face value this is a no brainer, but there are legitimate things to consider before blindly jumping in.

I agree with everyone here saying dudes should go for it if flying a fighter/bomber is what they've always wanted. But, the "negative" queep job/career stuff laid out here will most likely be reality for the majority. Doesn't matter if they don't give a shit about strats, that's not going to be enough to keep them flying and out of non-fighter/bomber flying gigs, staff, guess who's going to suck up the random deployment to ballsjerkistan, etc. Bottom line, they'll be competing on the VML with peers who are lightyears ahead of them - its not rocket science to see they'll most likely get the left overs. Dudes considering this crossover should be prepared for only one assignment while being at the OSS/Wing damn near the entire time. And for those who it works out for and they continue on in the CAF/avoid the avalanche of bullshit, great for them, but that should not be the expectation going in. On another plus side, IFF/B-Course/MQT will give them a solid 1-1.5 years of nearly zero queep and only focused on tactics, which will certainly be a welcomed break.

Best case they'll fill random ADO and attached job "commiserate with rank," barely maintain BMC, and overall have marginal utility to the CAF...until they're use to fill 11F staff after their one fighter assignment. Unfortunately I think their BMC flying rate/60 hrs of queep a week will marginalize their previous "air experience" when compared to the LTs who fly twice as much. None of this will be their fault personally, but will be the fault of big blue at large who can't manage people worth a shit. But, on the plus side for them personally, they're flying fighters for a few years even if it does include a lot of queep suck to go with it.

Not that easy any more Champ - you can't even sign up for correspondence until your third look as a select. Which is awesome when you see bros get forced to school who don't want it on X look as clearly stated on their 3849. But, we shouldn't be surprised the AF doesn't give a shit about what a person wants.

Good points, but still consider the difference in Es based on community just as it similarly applies to Os based on community. I know and work with several Es who have no issue saying "fuck you sir, you're wrong," debrief just as well as a fighter pilot, have the exact same viewpoints/actions regarding stupid rules, etc. Now will those type of dudes end up being the Es flying RPAs, who knows...but they do exist. That said, I have seeing nothing but horrible performance from E RPA operators, but it's also the Army and a completely different program. So, my hopeful assumption is the AF program would set up Es for far better success than the Army currently does. EDIT: By E RPA operators I mean from the pilot/mission commander perspective, not specifically from the sensor operator perspective (though the Army SOs are still pretty bad).

The JTR has something in there about early/separate dependent travel. It does require approval at some level, but I don't remember what that level is. You'll have to make a good argument as to why your family needs to travel prior to you...because you bought a house probably won't fly, but I guess anything is worth a shot. Regarding the possible TDY en-route, the AF will send your family with you TDY...if you want them to go straight to Nellis while you go to SOS, you will only receive transient BAH (~1200/mo or something like that) UNLESS you either in-process Nellis, then go TDY from there (i.e. not an enroute TDY), or a SAF waiver is required to receive Nellis BAH (prior to you in-processing...i.e. while you're TDY enroute at SOS).

Go on...

I know plenty of patches who are great dudes and either already in leadership positions or definitely heading that way, all without any ballwash jobs on the resume (i.e. exec). Even if a lot of OG/WG CCs hold that #1 strat for the exec, the patch is still going somewhere as #2/3 out of 169, so who cares. It unfortunately sounds like some communities still don't understand how to best utilize their WOs; the CAF does a lot of stupid shit too, but WO utilization is something the MAF, etc. needs to take a page out of the CAF's book on. The fact that I can't even talk to one face-face from a certain community while deployed, and have to email a bro back in the states for questions/discussion is fucking outrageous.

I've only seen one fighter patch be an exec. I'm sure it's happened more than that one guy, but it's safe to say such a thing is extremely rare. That is insane 1/2 of the execs you've seen have been patches, what a colossal waste of expertise/knowledge.

At minimum, why doesn't wash out rate rise 20% then? Or are you guys "behind the scenes" unable to wash people out because the bobs won't let you?