Lawman

We can and do already do that with other systems. Like I said AFATDS (Advanced Field Artillery Data System) pretty much takes the calculating and decision making out of the human discussion because that's where the greatest probability of induced error exists. Every time you lengthening the chain from the customer to delivery you create one more place somebody to question an error but also for a grid to be miffed or target location to suddenly change CDE/etc. If we spent more money into those systems there is nothing that would stop them from including some kind of "Arsenal drone" into a system like that. Just the cost to develop the software and the dedication in training to teach the guys how to implement it effectively. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I mean hell I can take Level 3/4 control of a Shadow V2 or Grey eagle and steer his sensor, designate with it, and then fire missiles at said target. It's not much of a stretch for me to start shooting with an Armed Grey Eagle. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We can and do already do that with other systems. Like I said AFATDS (Advanced Field Artillery Data System) pretty much takes the calculating and decision making out of the human discussion because that's where the greatest probability of induced error exists. Every time you lengthening the chain from the customer to delivery you create one more place somebody to question an error but also for a grid to be miffed or target location to suddenly change CDE/etc. If we spent more money into those systems there is nothing that would stop them from including some kind of "Arsenal drone" into a system like that. Just the cost to develop the software and the dedication in training to teach the guys how to implement it effectively. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's true with any weapons system though. Look at the Abrams for a great example of crew member development where you are grown into responsibility from that 18 year old no nothing. You don't start on that gun, you're a loading it... Then a driver, and prove you can take commands and learn how the tank and then later the platoon moves and fights. Then and only then do you become a gunner where you physically move and fire that main gun at the direction and authority of the tank commander (also typically enlisted). Then (typically around E6/7) that seasoned tanker is under the authority of the overall unit commander given the authority and responsibility to serve as a tank commander. He doesn't get paid any more than he did if he was a driver or loader. It's not he job that brings him more money and there is not a minimum or maximum rank/cost structure that's going to dictate when he gets that job.

Drones yes, but not releasing ordnance. Go ask liquid he gave a pretty good long dissertation about it in another thread. Hellfire was treated like some ridiculous high peak of only ____'s should be doing that. The point is you're apparently tied to this idea of "just because other people do it isn't justification." Except your justification to not explore it is "well this is the way it's always been." So have you got any legitimate reason to say an enlisted operator can't perform the job other than the dollars on their LES?

Because culturally you've forgotten where you came from and instituted an internalized idea that only ____s are good enough to drop ordnance. Kinda like my first point that you shrugged off and ignored earlier. When we first started arming drones it was forbidden to even discuss puting anything other than TacAir guys at the controls because only they understood how to employ weapons. Those second class citizens of non Tac Air couldn't be trusted to make those kinds of decisions. Funny how that idea is abandoned because there simply aren't enough Viper/Eagle/Hawg guys to fill the requirement. Now you want to pretend that the idea that enlisted can't/shouldn't be trusted with the release of ordnance is any different. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Holy F dude. You realize 15 years ago your argument would be on whether or not tanker and 130 guys had the tactical where with all and experience to release ordnance and that only Viper/Hawg/Strike guys should be shooting from drones right? What's funny is death from above within the BSOs AOR has nothing to do with whether you are a 1Lt or LtCol or E3, and everything to do with that BSOs approval authority passed through that JTAC via a 9 line. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Your first point literally makes zero sense. Also don't forget that even though the JTAC gives the cleared hot the air craft commander has the final day of whether or not to release weapons. If you are going to challenge the norm and rationales used for why this shouldn't happen just because of a pilot manning problem you are going to have to do better than that with your arguments. That 9 line clearance has dick to do with the person releasing the ordnance. It's a clearance from the Battle Space owner or his designated representative which makes your air delivered fires no different from the supporting artillery or CCA in the total scheme of maneuver. Just because you don't like the idea of it doesn't mean there aren't enlisted personnel delivering similar or even greater effects in the target area who make the final decision themselves whether to pull that lanyard on the 109 they are sitting in. Again from where the actual impact of go/no-go is (the ground) the BSO could give a damn who or what does it just that their intent is met and their authority properly passed. You know we have enlisted drone pilots in the Army who fire lasers and soon release ordnance (we are arming Grey Eagle). They do so without being babysit by officers every minute of that engagement or mission because they are designated by the commander with the authority to do such. We used to have air artillery observers who were enlisted. It wasn't the PC of the aircraft that had the final say so on them employing artillery fired from the seat of that aircraft, it was on that guy. If you want to get down this whole well only officers should shoot weapons then wtf is 80% of Army Aviation doing with Air Mission Commanders and PCs of aircraft who are warrants with a Lt/CPT in the front seat or on their wing. Obviously we aren't responsible enough to be doing that job because we aren't RLOs right? That's about as much logic as your idea that somehow E grades aren't smart enough to learn something O grades are. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Holy F dude. You realize 15 years ago your argument would be on whether or not tanker and 130 guys had the tactical where with all and experience to release ordnance and that only Viper/Hawg/Strike guys should be shooting from drones right? What's funny is death from above within the BSOs AOR has nothing to do with whether you are a 1Lt or LtCol or E3, and everything to do with that BSOs approval authority passed through that JTAC via a 9 line. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ummm what?You realize we have E's sitting in something with as much Firepower as an MLRS accepting fire missions, verifying coordinates, and releasing what is a metric butt load of Angry explosives right? Your CCTs on the ground control and coordinate the release of everything from a 20mm gun run to a fully loaded B-1 bomber... Do they not have rank and pay enough for that level of responsibility? Because the ALO they work for sure gets paid more without the responsibility. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yeah saying Officers should be responsible for effects sounds rational, but only in a vacuum when you don't look at the dozens of other readily available examples of high responsibility jobs done by enlisted personnel where a guy with stripes and no bars has the yes/no on whether something happens. Great example: Jump Master Didn't see any reasons stated as to why an E should be in charge of and final authority for an airframe dropping ordinance without any non E oversight. In all of those examples you have O's making the final decision. Ummm... No you don't. You know how many officers are in a Tank Company? 4 (3 LTs and a CPT)... You know how many tanks are in a tank company? A lot F'ing more than 4. Do you think those tank company and platoon commanders are stopping to verify the release of ordnance off their sections tanks? Or pimping directly what targets they are and aren't permitted to engage? Hell the first Sgts got his own tank he sure as he'll isn't asking a PL what to do with it. Same with an artillery Battery. Same with engineers who conduct virtually all their combat ops without direct oversight of engineering officers because they are tasked to support a ground commander who knows nothing about the how of the system and just provides his intent for the mission. I'd like to introduce you to a system called AFATIDS... Where an FSO (enlisted guy on an observation point) can literally sent a digital text message fire mission via a computer to a gun battery or MLRS/HIMARs also operated by enlisted personnel who can then dependent upon position relative to the fire support coordination line of that mission accept and fire on that target. Without ever talking to a captain... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ummm what? You realize we have E's sitting in something with as much Firepower as an MLRS accepting fire missions, verifying coordinates, and releasing what is a metric butt load of Angry explosives right? Your CCTs on the ground control and coordinate the release of everything from a 20mm gun run to a fully loaded B-1 bomber... Do they not have rank and pay enough for that level of responsibility? Because the ALO they work for sure gets paid more without the responsibility. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yeah saying Officers should be responsible for effects sounds rational, but only in a vacuum when you don't look at the dozens of other readily available examples of high responsibility jobs done by enlisted personnel where a guy with stripes and no bars has the yes/no on whether something happens. Great example: Jump Master

Leon, Just to be clear on this... There is no requirement for any branch of service to Enlist conditionally as part of an application for Officer Candidate School. If you hear the guy you are working with from any Branch (especially the Army Warrant program) walk out of the room he/she is trying to F you over.

Exactly. The problem is we are combining the ever increasing technology in every modern aircraft with the demonstrated trend to over report the hell out of anything even rumored to be a problem. And that's in whatever modern weapons system development the media makes its money writing against not just F-35. It makes me view this kind of stuff with a lot of skepticism as to how bad it is. Is there a problem, yeah sure I'll bet there are lots of problems, but there are lots of problems with airplane's we e had for 40 F'ing years and they still won't get it all fixed in the next lot/Blk update.

Ok how many times has the quick answer to your airplane waking up stupid been come of power, and come back up on power. I found it funny being told by a viper driver that the "Lockheed Reset" is the same thing we call the "Longbow Reset." We have Mission processors fail in flight near routinely with the E model Apache. It's what happens when you took six black boxes from the D and made it do all those jobs in two. The procedure is to reset the non primary after a switchover or degraded mode so if MP1 is crapping out, hard select 2, then back to auto. These systems are... 7ish years old. This isn't an F-35 specific problem.

I don't know, maybe it's the familiarity with Black Box intensive aircraft, but turn it off/on is a hell of common trouble shooting technique in far more than just the F-35. I think the reason this is even in the news is like any other issue its ignored unless it involves the F-35 and then it's screamed about because the media isnt looking into "flaws" in the Strike Eagle, Apache, or Viper.

Dude it's messy enough getting two people committed by marriage to make equitable and smart decisions about what to do with a house.... Roommates not a chance in hell. Probably the only consensus on spending money you will ever have is "Yes we need a Kegarator."

So I'm curious about this. What's a juice worth the squeeze estimate on moving that APR rate. Like if it's multiple thousands of dollars to refinance what kind of percentage change for say a 200 or 300k principle is needed to make it worth while. I'm asking because I only got into the 300k house 7 months ago on a zero down VA loan and I keep getting adds from other financial institutions offering lower rates. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sending your info to our Swag guy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you want to make the argument of losing funding for the long occupation you're gonna have a bad time making the argument to funnel 5th gen fighter money into another plane. That money you want to ear mark for putting up an A-10 replacement would be far better spent on post war ops having trained/equipped ground brigades and boots on the ground combined with civil service contractors to get the schools built, and the water/power working for the locals. The locals can't tell and really don't care what is on the ATO line, but having Brigade sized footprints go to being managed by Battalions or Company+ size elements doesn't keep the markets open or prevent militants from taking over villages and asserting their will on the people. We aren't seeing a resurgence of Taliban/Haqqani/etc in Afghanistan in the Helmand, Sangin, or Arghandab because we didn't have the right plane dropping the right bombs. We are seeing it because we pulled out any respectable sized ground force.

You can even forget about 10-15 yrs, right now I can think of 3 separate places where we're a sneeze away from a total shit storm and everyone not in a 5th gen aircraft starts riding the silk at Vietnam+ rates (or we avoid that by full up quitting, packing our shit up and going home as soon as it starts). Am I saying it's going to happen, not at all, but only people with their craniums in the sand think shit like that is "far away" and not something we need to worry about until 10-15 yrs from now. That is reality now, it get far worse years from now. I'm with you that in the end it probably doesn't happen, but we'd be the dumbest assholes in history if it did happen and we got caught with our pants down. If I and another guy are pointing guns at each other's faces right now, I say that's a problem to worry about now, not in a few years because I'm kind of sure maybe sort of that the other guy isn't going to pull the trigger. I'm not taking that bet. Anybody wants to get to the dark side just get on SIPR and go talk to MSIC about the Syria vs Libya briefing. Those guys will give you a very bleak picture on how much more expensive our air campaigns get for very minor changes in what should be considered 2nd tier venues. Stuff like fights over those islands in Japan, the South China Sea/Philippines/Spratleys, or an Iran with Russian backing and double digit toys enforcing their regime and things get down right scary/ridiculous expensive. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow that's sick. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Question on the bottle openers, have you tried anything with rotors? Just curious how they hold up to bending.

Yep - there's often more than a binary choice than full on 250k boots on the ground, 3 carriers on staton and 15 wings deployed and doing nothing. I'm not 100% sure the COA we are currently executing (Precision Strike, Persistent ISR supporting limited SOF kinetic and Conventional Partner Capacity Building) is going to bring the results we want but for now it is enough. At best it will bring results we can tolerate. Total inaction is just not an option given who would take more action in our absence. I don't think anybody in a decision making position honestly believes the COA we are on right now is the right one. We are just waiting on the clock because the legacy of this administration cannot be seen as recommitting ground forces and restarting the "War in Iraq." For the thousands of US ground personnel already there though that's not exactly a strategy. I for one enjoy reminding my liberal friends that think these wars are over because Obama waved a magic wand that I'll be in Iraq this Christmas, and the rest of my Brigade will be in Afghanistan the following summer. Long after "combat operations" supposedly stopped. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's the sticking point. If there's a power vacuum, other people start asserting the order they want, and it probably isn't what you want. That's the thing about being a Super Power... You only get to be through your own work, not because anybody else wants you to be one.

Really? I was thinking more F-14 & F-15. I was on the Philippine assistance team when they went with FA-50 we had a viper guy for the FW CAS position going over the dash 1. His comments were its so Lockheed/Viper that if he wasn't paying attention it would almost fool him.

Because after the A-12 disaster nobody in the Navy wanted to try and fight to get a multi billion dollar fighter program through their own brass much less congress.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Makes sense - forgot the A-12 debacle Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk There is a lot of loose talk and theory behind the Super Hornet development as being chosen mostly because it was the lowest risk and having little to do with aircraft capes. This is especially true around the Tomcat 21 advocates who see Grummans's wet dream of a Raptor tech/engine equipped F-14 and swear the reason it didn't happen wasn't based on cost or any other factor. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because after the A-12 disaster nobody in the Navy wanted to try and fight to get a multi billion dollar fighter program through their own brass much less congress. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True. I just hate that everybody wants to use the most basic two metrics possible of how many aircraft we bought and how long we flew the ones they replaced. It completely ignores all the stuff I mentioned not to forget the increasingly high pace of technological obsolescence in the digital age. Now you take a fleet of 160 raptors, constantly have say 1/3 of that in depot for either service life extensions or modifications to maintain technological edge and you drop to a fleet of 100+ airplanes. Factor in how many of those are available to train and we are talking 1-2 wings of which only half are up at a time as deployable. We go from the worlds most capable and deployable air power force to having a numerical parity to even small nations let alone the big scary ones like China/Russia. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk