General Chang

Vetter, Chuck17, ChampKind, Animal, and all of you other disturbed officers out there, Your callousness, bitterness, perversion, and outright disgusting behavior turns my stomach. YOURS are the types of attitudes that General Welsh is trying to weed out of the Air Force. He will be successful, and all of the sexist children in the Air Force will quickly find themselves out of a job (at least in uniform). You guys talk about core values in other threads?? Look at the filth you are posting! I am begging you, please reevaluate your own character before subjecting your squadron-mates to this disgusting behavior, because there will be consequences in the not-too-distant future. You know, I often think to myself, "If my daughter wants to join the service, will I be 100% behind her when the time comes?" Reading this thread and trash that "adults in charge" are posting here gives me great pause when answering that question... How can you identify sexual discrimination in your subordinates when you are actively practicing that type of behavior in your mind? Please meditate on & pray about what I've said here.

Tanker, Good, reasoned thought. Only a couple of probs: 1. The AF doesn't have the option to guess when a hiring boom might take place wrt spending taxpayer $ on the bonus. 2. Even with staff overages, the Wings are still fully manned (and then some) with -11Ms. There's not enough room for them all; if you look at the UMDs and especially the TDY charts, there is clearly a large overage. And I'm talking trends for the UMDs and TDYs, not just one year. Heck, C-17 pilots, I bet your SF brothers would love your TDY rates! These are the types of numbers your senior leaders are looking at to make manning & bonus decisions. Since I'm offending a great many people (other than Mr. Pipes), I'll make this my last post here. For those of you who feel you are overworked for the money you are paid, I'll throw out an additional suggestion besides RPAs, AETC, and getting out. Many people are intimidated for some reason by volunteering to work staff at the Pentagon. You should consider it. You don't have to worry about flying currencies, the hours for most FGO jobs are 8ish to 4:30 with 1-1.5 hour lunches, you don't ever have to worry about work on the weekends, and there's tons of free museums, sports teams, family life is great...it's the Air Force's best kept secret. Think about it- it's a pretty sweet gig. Flyers, enjoy those crazy awesome bonuses, keep up the good work. I'm grateful for the awesome opportunities the Air Force has and continues to provide me, and I believe there are more people that not in the Air Force that are grateful for what they've been (and are continued to be) given by Big Blue. Keep the faith!

Rusty, you complain so much about the C-17 tempo, but then I offer the Grand Forks suggestion to moderate your family life, and you complain about that. You can't seem to believe anyone would enjoy UAVs, when many people appreciate the change of pace. You're not happy about the $0 bonus, but if you were included, I suspect you would complain about your bonus not being as much as a fighter pilot. If you were to get the fighter bonus, you would complain that you shouldn't have to sign a 9 year contract in which the Air Force has the upper hand. I'll concede some of the points on this forum about "service" only going so far, but Rusty, you seem to be so jaded that you are 100% in it for yourself, and that is very, very toxic.

Most squadrons have a few civilians for continuity and to overcome the few instances when attached personnel can't pull their weight on a particular week. Not sure what the major complaint is here- we need certain officers to obtain specific mentoring (especially executive officers) in order to become tomorrow's senior leaders. Are you proposing that a line flyer without any staff training at the Gp/Wg/above level should be considered for DO and CC opportunities? I propose those individuals would be extremely one-dimensional in their approach to problem solving. There is a reason certain people who obtain certain experiences are granted future opportunities to lead, while others remain at the tactical level. We need both types to be successful.

Champ Kind, Your leadership is in charge of ensuring attached guys fly an equitable amount of hours. As an O-3 IP in the squadron, your job is to fill in the occasional slack and trust your bosses to worry about any attached issues. If you are frustrated by this, why not approach your DO with your grievances?

Guaranteed for 80+% (75% in the zone, 5+% BPZ)

Wings are assigned people based on UMD AFSCs. If a Wing pulls up a guy without a slot, they must be attached to the Wing, but they are still flying with the squadron. As a result, the squadron is still getting full use of the pilot in the aircraft. Hence, there is no overage (and most Wings have way more -11Ms than UMD billets). Again, manning is not an issue- your C-17 squadrons have more than enough pilots to do the mission you should be doing.

Absolutely agree. Coming out, saying "Guys, we screwed up, I'm sorry" would have been at least a ground-rule double. Getting the process right in the first place would have been the homerun.

Hang tough, Flaco. You may not see the benefits of your work here, but you are making an impact on people.

My friend, there are GOs that look at more than the numbers. Then there are staffs that look at just the numbers. It's up to the CSAF to look at the whole enchilada. If I were to look at more than the numbers, I'm doing a serious disservice to the Air Force. You cannot have emotion enter BOTH sides of the equation, or the CSAF does not have the correct sight picture with which to make long-term decisions. Personally, I feel that sufficient numbers of people would have stayed this year with just an -11F bonus. That did not happen. I would bet my career that next year's -11F retention numbers for 2002/2003 will exceed ALL expectations after this year's (very late) bonus raise. Yes, a few will still get out, but $100K+ per year pay until retirement, free medical for the entire family, guaranteed retirement at O-5 of $52K+ per year and climbing, AND $225K signing bonus with $112.5K up front? Oh man, what a pile of gold! I suspect, by your emotional reactions to this thread since you found out you get $0 bonus, that you would be the very first one in line to sign up, if you were an -11F at the 11-12 year point.

Love this, agree with this, absolutely spot on. GO pay should never be allowed to balloon like it does. Congress has to fix that one. Also, correct about GO billets- 17 down so far, plus a couple of AF GOs in joint billets....watch that number continue to plunge over the next few years. O-4s and O-5s aren't the only problem, they are the problem with the cheapest solution. Retirement boards for Colonels as well? Watch and see... Yes, cannot argue that- good point. As I previously stated, big-time screw-up on A1's part.

The problem is the right mix, if AF implements- offer the retirement, too few people take it, then what? Too many people take it, you limit the program, then AF has REALLY pissed people off, a la VSP several years ago, and morale goes into the crapper. Addict, I think you're on to something here. The problem is we're only a couple of years past the ten-year ADSC bonus classes; we don't have enough data points to plot trends. I suspect this may be as good an answer as any, IF there is no mass exodus of younger guys at the ADSC, which is what I have been stating. However, if I am wrong and many of you are right, moving to the 8-year ADSC could be the death blow to multiple class years of pilots, which is not good. Probably the best way to proceed on this line of thinking is to take ONE class year and alter their ADSCs to 8 years (say, those whose ADSC's are up in FY16; make them FY14, so we have two classes simultaneously coming due). Then, track the take rates for the two classes seperately, and analyze the trends. If too many "former FY16" guys jump ship in FY14, the Air Force knows it has a serious situation on its hands, and it has only sacrificed one class year. Hmmmm.....interesting.....

Rusty, What about that analysis re: the Air Force's concerns do you disagree with? It seems like you are in agreement with the position. Mr. Noonin, Personnelists do understand people, which is why cuts are not happening as they should be. Not sure how long that can hold off, however, with massive sequester cuts looming. 15-18 years will be the sweet spot (as Rusty alluded to, a relatively "cheap" $100K to get out of the contract) to save a quick load of cash. Pilots, do not for one minute think that I nor anyone in the decision-making process do not appreciate your hard work- I am constantly in awe of our aircrew and their sacrifices, and I am proud of every one of you. However, there are frustrations and then there are numbers. I look at the numbers. If something's not working, yes, throw different numbers at the problem and fix it. That doesn't mean you are not appreciated by your fellow servicemen and women.

We have to keep some folks through 20 (hence costing more money) for two primary reasons: 1. We actually need a few O-4/O-5 types between 15-20 years (again, mostly at the staff level, not in the cockpit, ergo we need people to take the bonus now to lock them in) 2. If we start cutting people like we should between 16-18 years in order to save money, BIg Blue feels younger pilots may start to get concerned and worry the Air Force is disingenuous re: the 20 year retirement system. Hence, they could be much more skeptical about the bonus, and take rates would fall. So Big Blue feels it has to be very careful and selective about when we cut officers between 16-18 years (doesn't happen very often). The scenario I outlined was offering early retirement pay vs. just the pay between 16-20 years. You cannot take the 20 year retirement into consideration in that argument, because it is a "sunk cost," unless the third option (Air Force cuts force structure like it needs to between 16-18 years) becomes a legitimate alternative. Honestly, in my opinion, 15-18 year cuts should be on the table for the sake of saving our Air Force. We have to cut cost wherever possible, and senior Majors/junior Lt Cols are costing us a fortune. I agree with "addict" and "56-&-2": it doesn't make sense to let "the glut" retire at 20. It makes no fiscal sense at all. We need to cut. Step 1 should have been to transition everyone's thought process through a "no bonus" year for all but -11F's, then reinact the bonus next year to make the pilots feel special, but that is not what happened- everyone gets the bonus this year yet again (sigh). Had we enacted the "no bonus" plan this year, starting in 2014, Step 2 could have used CONSISTENT force shaping cuts from 15-18 years every year so that officers don't get pissed off due to being "weened onto" the program (of course "eliminated officers" would be pissed the first couple of years, but the bad feelings would taper quickly). Potentially being cut late in one's career would become part of the personnel culture, and as a result, officers would strive for greater excellence in their careers in order to not be "caught" in that bottom 10-20%. If you don't have your record "in order" at 15-18 years, and you get cut, blame only yourself (the pattern will be there- again, after the first few years). When the service gets smaller in the near future, and the money's not there for personnel, and we have to cut high cost officers, where is the best place to cut? 15-18 years. Every time, no questions asked. It's an easy numbers game for the GOs. So, if you're one of those Majors out there who doesn't have his "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed, and you're at the 12-13 year point (hmmm....sounds like this year's bonus eligibles), you probably should reprioritize and get your stuff done (always easier to get it done today than tomorrow, when you have more responsibility, more family obligations, etc). YOU have the power to ensure that YOU don't fall into that bottom 20%. You can call me a tool, a troll, a Pentagon personnel weenie...whatever makes you feel better when your head hits the pillow tonight. I can take it, and I won't react. However, deep down, think about what I've said here. If you fall into the "gray" area and want to retire, you might need to think about reprioritization in order to "publicly declare" your value to the Air Force when the cuts start flying. Just go out, be the best (leader, pilot, officer, all of those), get your stuff done (yes, PME and degree), work your tail off, and you'll be fine. Easy peasy. "The higher, the fewer." - Alexander R. Keep the faith.

Ok, Rusty, I'll bite. The AF drew the line at the 16 year point this year for the bonus, so let's use 16 years for your scenario. Current early retirement rules = lose 3.5% per year early. In this scenario, the Major retiring at 16 years would be awarded 36% of "top 3" pay. Top 3 pay would equal an average of $7000 per month. $7000 x 36% = $2521.26/month x 12 months = $30,255.12/year Average lifespan around 77. Assume said Major was 40, that's 37 years x $30,255.12 = $1,119,439. Yikes. Inflation not taken into account on either side of the ledger (value of tomorrow's dollars or annual increase in retirement dollars). Using your number ($120K/yr), AF saves $480,000. Even with inflation, doesn't come close, because the $1.12M would have to be adjusted upward as well, albeit by a smaller margin, since the payments are happening over 37 years. Rusty, we've looked at these scenarios, and the taxpayer loses money to keep you from working. They'd kick you out before you hit the 18 year point, but contrary to popular belief, there are Generals at the Pentagon who have a heart and look for other solutions.

BCan, Respectfully, you are in the service and you complain about the honor and tradition of wearing a uniform? You describe it as a "f***ing haze" to wear our service's uniform? Wow. Now I am numb. There is no "mess" here, BCan, and there never was. The ACP has been around for years, and $$$ have always worked to fix the imbalance. Each and every time, it has worked (sometimes it took a couple of years, but it worked none-the-less). There is no quantitative evidence that $$$ will not continue to work in the future. If one year's retention is suboptimal, the A1 will tell the CSAF what needs to happen, and the CSAF will adjust the ACP. Simple as that. No emotion, no thoughts about quality of life. Just money to fix the problem. And it works. Why would the GOs change something that works? I get that many of you have been screwed by this or that, and I understand complaining about it in this forum. All I am trying to relay, as unemotionally as possible, is that the bonus program (and I'm only talking about the bonus here) is ALL about 1's and 0's, nothing more, nothing less. It is not a pat-on-the-back, it is not a thank-you. The only way in which the bonus looks "backwards" is at retention number trends over time. Other than that, the bonus looks forward. Similar to a promotion, in that you are being promoted because of your potential to lead in the next rank, except promotions have a backward-looking "achievement" component. The bonus does not. The bonus does not cry for prior enlisted who do not get it. They did not get it because they will stay through 20 (in fact, guys just hitting their 15th year will stay through 20, to the tune of 90+%, regardless of bonus money, so count your blessings if you're between 15-16 that leadership gave you a payout). The bonus does not weep for late rated people who are ineligible. They are ineligible because they will stay through 20. Give them bonus money? Why, Rusty? So they can stay past 20? The Air Force does not need you past 20. They need you to (mostly) work the staff & (a small few of you) fly the line now, but after 20, you're in the way of the promotion system. There is plenty of talent in the pipeline to become the next "experienced pilot" behind you (actually, they're already the "experienced pilot" behind you, as folks hit EP at the senior Captain rank), and they are much cheaper than you are. Simple math, just like the private sector. Why would the taxpayer give you a crapload money and get zero "net effective return" on that money? Ergo, no bonus for you. And low and behold, Rusty, you are staying, which prooves the CSAF's point. You do not deserve the money. You do not NOT deserve the money. You just don't get the money, because enough of your type are staying (to include you), and then leaving at 20, which is what the Air Force needs, and that's what matters. The bonus does not cheer for fighter pilots who just hit the lottery. There is no conspiracy among fighter pilot GOs at the Pentagon to give "their own" more money. Hogwash. It's ones and zeros. What does a four-star get out of giving an O-4 an extra pile of cash? If he's lucky, nothing. If he's not lucky, he gets an earful from a Congressman or woman that he must sit there and listed to, diligently, out of respect for his or her office. Conspiracy? Please. Get over yourself. The bonus does not give a sigh of relieve for the glut of -11Ms who just hit paydirt. If you read my first post, mobility guys, you should realize why I later said "gratitude" is the word of the day. Besides the upcoming Air Force contraction, staffs will contract over the next few years. Fewer -11Ms will be needed to backfill -11F positions. Additionally, # of squadrons are contracting in some weapons systems (take the Herk world, for example; once transformation is complete, there will not be nearly as many "J" pilots walking around as there were "E" + "H" pilots- fewer squadrons- simple math). UAV mid-career transfers may be topping out in the next few years (speaking strictly on the heavy, non-armed side-of-the-house) as the formal UAV training pipeline continues to ramp up and add capacity. And yes, while C-17 pilots are hurting from the tempo, it is simply not a manning issue. It is a mission issue, and should be addressed in that manner (I'm sure to hear the most response from this comment, but it's true: the C-17 community has the manning to accomplish the mission it should be doing. Maybe things will get better for that community as OEF wraps up next year- I am crossing my fingers). As for the airlines, there is no mass hire, there won't be a mass hire anytime soon (probability very, very high), and if there is, the Air Force will correct with money, and it will be very successful with that tool as it always has been. The bonus DOES project forward, and it sees a future issue in the -11F community. No issues in spec ops, helos, UAVs, and ESPECIALLY mobility as far as the numbers are concerned. I cannot argue emotion or individual frustrations- please feel free to vent, but I cannot have a constructive argument with you, because the numbers don't support your frustrations. I am sorry. The bonus is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. It is $$$, and money rebalances the Air Force's "personnel portfolio," if you will... Hopefully this response is a little more "even-keeled"--I apologize for calling a pilot a "pansy" in the other forum- I will try to stick to the facts from here forward. Enjoy your weekend. Enjoy your bonuses. Can't wait for Coney Island Hot Dog contest this week!!

I really don't understand the attitude and the foul language guys. The facts are what they are- take the emotion out, make your bonus decision "yea" or "nay" and move on with your life. In the AF or not, work hard and be happy. Simple as that. Have a great weekend. Even you, Danny Noonin.

Of course the AF changes the rules when necessary! This is not chess club! The Air Force has never promised anything to anyone, ever. Your comment about the retirement system is valid and will be studied and changed over the next few years. So it's really not about service for you at all at this point? That's the legacy you want to leave for the young guys reading this thread? How do you mentor your young CGOs in your squadron when you feel this way re: the core values? Sorry I'm old fashioned, but please tell me this isn't about personal financial gain for you for the next 5 years.

Guys, -11F crisis leads to increased bonus contract length. Everyone "thinks" they see this or that within their own little sphere of influence. You do not have the big picture. Lt Gen Jones (the AF/A1) does. Nobody is going to post strength numbers on this website. The simple truth is that the pilot crisis exists in only one AFSC, and the rest of you are lucky they kept the political-hot-potato-bonus around at all. You take issue with my hat-in-hand comment? Just be grateful and sign or don't sign. But stop blaming the Air Force for your generally miserable attitude. Military life is good- look at the retention numbers that are public. RECORD LEVELS. The word of the day today is now "gratitude" everyone.

IP school is ALWAYS worth the investment, even if they move straight into another MWS. IP is much more about the mentality than stick and rudder. It's worth every penny in the scenarios you guys are describing. The 0.5 point "bump" it gives the guy on the promotion board is simply a pleasant byproduct for that officer.

Really desk jockey? You're pissed I didn't coddle him? If you took offense to that post, you pilots don't have the cahones I thought you had. Pilot pansy.

Animal, I haven't read the T.K. book, but I'll put it on my list. My last thought here, but I'll keep monitoring. There are a ton of numbers being dissected daily at the Pentagon. Additionally, those numbers are being examined by your peers; fighter guys, heavy guys, helos, RPA, mx, cyber...EVERYONE is represented. These folks have been in the fight the last 12 years; only recently have most of them entered the staff world. They understand your pain, and they're doing their best to work the mission and the people. Occasionally mistakes happen, but a vast majority of the decisions being made are the right ones for the right reasons. However, keep posting ideas here on all of these topics, because your innovative idea might be seen by an AO and run up the chain to the highest levels. If you're on here just to complain, I can understand some of that, but find time in your day to reflect on why you're unhappy, and if it's institutional rather than personal, come up with solutions, keep posting here, and work it through your chain if able. Re: the bonus, it really is simple: am I willing to continue to serve in uniform for the next x number of years in any position the Air Force throws my way (to include a potential 365- you should always tell your spouse to expect one 365 at some point in your career, and if it doesn't happen, good for you) AND HAVE A GOOD ATTITUDE DOING IT (no matter what "it" is). If the answer is no, you'll be fine- officers are extremely talented--go chase your dreams; a heart felt "thank you" for your service from the bottom of my heart. If the answer is yes, sign the papers, go out there and LEAD! YOU will directly influence whether your airmen have a good day or bad, just through your attitude and leadership. This holds true if you're supervising one or 100- trust me, I've done both. If you see problems, try to fix them. But don't be a "woe is me, my life sucks" obstacle. We have far too many O-4s and O-5s like that now. If you can't do this, please don't sign the bonus. Thank you for your service. Young guys...this is an amazing Air Force with amazing opportunities- dream big, do your primary job to the absolute best of your ability WITH a good attitude, and watch how doors start to open for you. And if you ever end up on the "wrong side of the ledger" on an issue, don't take it personally- the Air Force is doing what it must to stay the best that ever existed. Sit down with your family and make your decisions together, with an eye on the future, not on past wrongs. And, when you decide to leave...thank you for your service. Keep the faith.

Maul, Hate to top rope you here, but you royally screwed yourself. You did not need to waste one second on a Masters as a school select. School select means the Air Force guarantees to send you in-residence to get both PME and your Masters. No exceptions. A CC cannot use "lack of a Masters" to avoid sending you to ACSC on your 3rd look. Not going to happen. If it did actually happen, and that was his justification, your CC would eat crow, and the decision would not stand. Those kinds of decisions have to be justified up here at the palace, and lack of a Masters is not justification. You received really piss poor mentoring. Or did you? Read on... Will you make GO by waiting until your 3rd look to go to school, then waiting for ACSC graduation to get your Masters checked off? No, because you will not get promoted early, you will kill your chances at SDE school select in the zone because you will meet your O-5 board in the zone without Masters complete, and it makes competing for O-6 that much harder. So, Maul, let's be honest with the forum. You want to compete for Colonel, and your mentor told you that you can't wait around for Masters to hit you record until after ACSC in-res completion because you're going 3rd look. So you get a degree you hate, and you gripe and complain, because you weren't satisfied retiring as an O-5. You chose the pain to compete for O-6; stop whining about the "threats" you received from your boss, and do us all a favor and leave at the 20 year mark. Thanks for your service.

Great first point- give Gen Welsh a little more time. Second point- not sure.

Rusty, Lots of officers are trolling this site that you wouldn't expect to be. The site itself has been around and thriving for what, 14 years? Back when I was flying the line, I loved the tools that baseops.net provided. It only stands to reason that officers who found utility in the site during the early 2000's would have naturally migrated over to the forums in recent years to see what crew dogs are complaining about. Generally good entertainment. Like the majority of folks, I logged in for quite a while as a guest, content to read the threads for insight and fun. However, seeing your frustrated post a couple of days ago on this thread caused me to come out of the shadows and give my thoughts, much like what happened with Liquid in the Promotions forum. The Air Force is an amazing organization with absolutely top-tier talent, as Animal alluded to, but it is a government organization, not a club, and it will move forward like a machine. Sometimes you benefit, sometimes you get screwed; in the end, if it's not about the service and you get screwed, you will naturally get emotional and negative, and you'll end up leaving the Air Force frustrated, pissed off, and killing the attitudes of many subordinates along the way who look up to you for guidance and mentorship.