nsplayr

All of that is valid, I just look at it like career longevity shouldn't be the goal for anyone really, especially dudes who are inclined to punch anyways. Not everyone needs to play the game nor should they, and those who do plan on staying should endeavor to change the game rather than just bend over and take it. Oh yea, I forgot, I was making it all up. /sarcasm WTF man, do you think I'm f-ing lying to you here or what? Call BS all you want, say NFW, I'll tell you I have seen it with my own pair of MK-1s and it applies to a great number of pilots in-processing to my community. This is all true and good, it's good technique to have it done rather than not because then your bases are covered. Where I disagree is whether, because this is true, dudes should just bend over and take it. I say no...do what you need to do to ensure success (may involve checking the box), but do everything possible to make the system better for the next guy versus just educating him on how to game the current, shitty system more effectively than you did. Who has a defeatist attitude now? Got it, I won't quote Jumper if that's not what he meant and people are getting butt-hurt over it (unlikely in real life conversations because I've said it before). I'll leave it at "this is what I think" and I know many, many heads have nodded and said the same thing before I came along anyways. That was the whole point of even referencing recent history...I'm not making this sh*t up and this whole conversation probably has happened 6-9 before and will happen again until someone gets it fixed. Regardless of if you can balance everything, I still stand firm on that dudes that are < 1 year into their MWS should not be worrying about their Masters. That's your prime time to become at least a book expert on your weapons system so by time you can get some experience and hours you can marry the two together nicely. Time is a finite resource and you can't tell me that time spend on a masters is not better spent in the squadron learning your job instead of with your head in an econ book or whatever. You should be getting an MA in KC-135 ops or "insert MWS here" ops. Agreed sort of, but 8 years as a captain before your first look? Specifics aside, yea, if you promoted later it all work work out fine and you'd have plenty of time to get that MA done while in the squadron but after what I consider the most important first year learning your primary job. But in the real world, if you show up at an O-3, spend a year learning your MWS and getting seasoned, then spend 2-3 years doing a masters, you're just barely getting your shit in order for your first look. Thus the problem.

I did...I don't understand how someone would "smoke" me for saying I thought that if the AF wants you to get a masters they should send you and that previous leaders has entertained thoughts similar to that. Seriously. Exactly, it should be a choice and it shouldn't come back to bite a guy who chooses not to do what I did and start their MA. That's not the case however when you start looking at, "Well gee, when did he get it done?" Nope, absolutely not. So if a guy chooses to start his MA during BITs, great. I'd say you're hard pressed to actually finish the degree in there however, and once mission training starts that should be the focus. I'd also argue that the first year you're mission qual'd should be totally focused on learning your job in the jet and in the squadron versus worrying about schoolwork that has no bearing on your ability to perform/lead/etc. So, now you've been in the squadron for a year, maybe have some MA work knocked out but most likely not the full degree, and you've been a Captain for over a year because you arrived at the squadron with two bars on each shoulder already. How does that common scenario fit into Bergman's mythical timeline for success? That's not the time I'm talking about, it the first year in the squadron after you're checked out. Right now that's prime time for guys to be told to "finish up that masters" and that's a total foul. They should be being told to study their pubs, ask questions, and pick up the slack on additional duties a distant third. Agreed...it gives you more options later and you certainly don't get less busy as your career goes on, but it's technique. Not something that should be constantly debriefed to guys who choose to focus on the mission or their squadron duties or their families. I just think the system needs to change, bottom line. To expect dudes to have their masters done well before their first look at the Major's board, considering most MA programs take 2-3 years to complete, is stupid. If guys come into the squadron as Captains as many, many do at least in my community, that puts them working hard on their MA when they should be working hard to be competent copilots. They should be worrying about AC upgrade, not a MA in Basketweaving or whatever.

Sorry dude, clicked the wrong button. Meant +1. Yea, someone with a 20lb brain will figure out how to have some fun with them.

Bergman. Those direct words. Check his post, then check my post again where I quoted him directly. That's part of why I'm giving him sh*t because that's so far from making any kind of sense...one really big excuse for not having it done as an LT and that applies to most here is flight training, which unlike in Bergman's experience perhaps, frequently can take 3+ years to produce a mission-qual'd aviator at an operational squadron. Depends on what program you do and if it's in person, online, etc. For me, not a whole lot, maybe 4-5 hours per week for 1 class at a time (and ridiculous 16 week courses have really stretched out that timeline but don't get me started on that...) I felt like I could get it done while in the FTU and still perform to the level I wanted so I started when I did. For other dudes who wanted to do one of the in-person programs on base or in town, PEXing yourself out for every Tuesday and Thursday from 6-9pm wasn't gonna cut it when they were still in training. YMMV is the bottom line. I didn't have kids at the time, my FTU was probably not the hardest one out there, I was motivated by personal reasons to get my Masters anyways. Encouraging guys to do the same to the point where it's taught as procedure when their situations are different is BS. As you're fond of saying, it was technique only. You've got to be kidding me if anyone out there really thinks that the gnat's ass timing of your masters degree completion matters. Let's just throw out content or actual learning altogether! Hell, let's throw out the content of the actual officer's job performance and look not only at the box being checked, but how long the ink's been dry! Craziness...it shouldn't be a freaking race to look good, a MA should be an ancillary measure of actually being good.

This is wrong on so many levels. Just because it's bullshit is a great reason to fight to get the system changed...it's a bullshit system! When guys can point to a leader who not too long ago advocated that the AF would send you to get a MA if you needed on (Jumper) I don't think it's a stretch to seek leadership with similar views today. WE ARE CITY HALL and if, as officers and mostly pilots here, we can't change the system we truly have lost our souls to the bureaucracy. You said... No excuse to get it done as an LT is pretty unrealistic when dudes are in UPT/FTU as an LT. If you want guys doing their MA in pilot training or during the FTU well I have nothing for you sir. And "certainly by time you've been a Captain for a year" means that dudes would have, in many cases, less than 1 year to complete a MA program because they're arriving to the operational squadrons as freshly pinned captains. You're aware that most MA programs take longer than 1 year, correct? That's why your advice strikes a ridiculous cord...my example (as a nav with less time spent in training, not a pilot) of starting early serves to show that even when I worked on my MA concurrently with the FTU (not recommended), I still will barely finish by the Bergman Timeline of Success. And for what? What benefit does the AF get by me doing my MA right now? I got personal benefit from doing it but that was a choice, it should not be a requirement. Technique only on my part and you're preaching technique as procedure and frankly the AF agrees with you. I also said I was a big fan of staying in school and tried to do educational delay, I happily did my MA. But for dudes who don't feel the same way, do you really want freshly qualified guys forcibly concentrating on shit other than learning to be experts in their respective MWSs?? When you tell a brand new LT or Captain who should be learning how to not suck in the jet and how to employ his weapons system downrange that he should be doing his MA, that's a loss of mission focus. It's only defeatist if the primary goal is to be promoted. Bold for emphasis.

Humm...may want to check your own division for some pretty stiff competition...I'm no NY fan but just sayin... Thought of a great team name (not unique I'm sure but hey, I was proud)...Vicktorious. I might just have to use that.

Thanks, fixed it. So his advice and maybe yours should perhaps be calibrated for the realities of today's young officers. You immediately discredit yourself (not you specifically, more bergman I'm talking to) by recommending a person knock out their masters as an LT but after their MQT when that is impossible to accomplish because of timing. The fact of the matter is guys are showing up to their first operational squadron green as any LT ever was but with captains bars on their shoulders, that changes the career advice they should be getting because they've essentially lost years of leeway due to training/delays/etc. Before becoming the advice-giver preaching "hey, you young guys should be doing this," take a look at the facts on the ground. At what point in my career is bitching allowed? 4 years? 6-9 years? How about hueypilot, Bitte, pawnman, busdriver, tac airlifter, Karl Hungus, etc. Are they also insufficiently experienced to be making essentially the same argument I am? I don't think so...and that's just from the last 2 pages of this one thread. Criticize the ideas, not the person. I may still be a f*cking lieutenant for another week or so but that doesn't mean I'm wrong when I say that dudes are being driven towards getting out because of a loss of mission focus on the part of leadership.

Wait, you are familiar with how long training is for aviators right? And how long it takes to complete most masters programs right? Because the brand new shiny pilots showing up to my unit after UPT, FTU, various casual times and/or BITs, etc. are all either within 6 months of pinning captain or more likely already Captains. When are they supposed to do that masters again? Sooo...yea, your prescribed path isn't even achievable. If I ran the AF, anyone even thinking about getting their masters before they had a solid year in their first operational squadron would be kicked square in the nuts for losing focus on their primary job. And I'm all for education...I tried to educational delay out of ROTC and the AF told me no, so it's not about not seeing the value in having an MA, especially post-military. The timing you're suggesting is where I see a big problem and where most young officers see the problem as well. Navs have it a little better, I was checked out and deployed right as I pinned on 1Lt. I started my masters the month I graduated nav school (i.e. worked on it concurrently with the FTU) and am still working to finish it up as I pin O-3...looks like I'm way behind on the Bergman power curve. There goes my BTZ to O-6! Realistically this is what most people do (myself included) but it's a defeatist attitude if that's what you believe deep down. I refuse to validate stupid shit just because it was the price I had to pay to play the game. I want it to be easier, more streamlined, and more mission-focused for the next guy. If I can do anything from my humble perch as a crew dog to stop the practice bleeding for PME, if I can somehow influence the system to allow guys to focus on getting proficient in their airplane versus getting their MBA, I will do so regardless of the fact that the system required me to do those things. Work to make things better, not to just get by, "play the game" and get promoted. I believe there was a quote out there about being someone versus doing something...I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be somebody so I might as well try to do this.

We apparently have them in the building and are getting them ready to fly with crews. Booya! I hope we can do angry birds over bluetooth, that would be amazing...

Yes. Things that make it harder to accomplish the mission should be eliminated or reduced. Actions/programs/people who enable the mission to be done more easily should be taken/implemented/praised & promoted. I am in no position to get out right now, so ask some of the people who are on the fence. Catbox had a thread specific to his decision. There are many others right here and now, ask them, I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't been said before. I'm actually late-coming to this whole being bitter over queep deal...I've been really happy in my assignment so far and have a reserve well of good will towards the AF built up from the last few good years. The point is not that I cannot do what needs to be done, it's that some of those things are unnecessary in the first place and therefore I resent having to do them. I still wear my blues and do my SOS practice bleeding and am almost done with my masters and etc. etc. but it's the fact that none of those things (and many more) are actually required to accomplish my unit's mission. In fact they detract from either A) the mission or B) dwell time at home that should be spent either training or with families. So when the boss says his #1 and #2 priorities are the mission and the people, yet his #3-#69 priorities are things that negatively impact the first two, I cannot take seriously the organizational commitment to the top priorities. I'd have to imagine myself as a pretty damn senior commander to be able to fix this stuff because it's not squadron-generated, at least where I'm at. You can't really believe this do you? Because the people in the squadrons and on the line are making it work that means the leadership is sufficiently "focused" on the mission? So the only way we can possibly communicate that there is a lack of mission focus is to fail? I didn't say there was a lack of mission accomplishment, I said there was a lack of focus which is different and has to do with the f-ed up priorities scheme I mentioned above. Nope, it's really not. That wears on you after a while and I've seen dudes pretty burned out and bitter, but what drives the nail in the coffin is when you come home and on your dwell time you're spinning up for inspections, practice inspections for future inspections, mobility processes that conform to Big Blue but not to logic or common sense, senseless paperwork to accomplish what used to be routine scheduling changes, briefing the OG in person every time anyone sets foot off home station for an OST/TDY/exercise, etc. That's what makes guys really lose it from what I've seen.

Apparently no drugs in her system when she died. Booze, but no drugs...seems hard to believe to me.

I know one of those guys specifically and we all knew from a mile away he had no business in the gunship. Our FLT/CC did a freaking amazing job getting people the planes they wanted (I think something like 7/12 got their absolute first choice, the other 5 got something very close), but he maybe didn't do quite as good of a job at looking objectively at where people could succeed. WRT the whole instructors at the school house thing, I think AFSOC has suffered from this for some time. When I was there I could remember 1 cool as hell gunship nav, another gunship dude who I didn't see much, and a total douche talon II guy and that's all the exposure I had to the entire command. I think they just don't wanna pay the dues in terms of bodies to put a representative number of instructors there. While I think it would help in the very long run by attracting better guys to AFSOC (especially important now since F-15E/B1 seem to be the perceived shiny pennies out of there), it makes the immediate fires of not enough 12S manning worse and therefore will not be pursued. I can think of two platforms that gainfully employ a bunch of CSOs that have exactly zero representation at the school house and the number of studs dropping those platforms has been correspondingly low. Hopefully that's a coincidence and the numbers will pick up and/or they'll release some bodies to go over there and teach one of these days.

Did someone just say snatch?

Yes, that's exactly what's going on here. Since I'm assigned to a particular flight in a particular squadron in a particular group in a particular wing, I'm most concerned with the problems within arms reach. I'm not aiming to "strategically fix" anything with the Air Force at this point. It's not all about bitching, but it's a little about bitching. Actually I'd say it's complaining because bitching is complaining without a solution and the solution for my particular problem is to turn back the clock policy-wise and attitude-wise like 2-3 months and go from there. I'll send him that leadership should be focused on the mission and not stupid queepy shit like uniform wear and TPS reports. That stuff inevitably has to be done, but when it's priority #2 or #3 on the boss' agenda and he spends noticeable time kicking people in the nuts not for failing to accomplish the mission, but rather for failing to play by the exact letter of both the rule book and his personal, often unknown preferences as a CC, that's a foul IMHO. We should (speaking of AFSOC here) be flexible enough to provide specialized airpower anywhere in the world on a moment's notice without having to check our sock color or roll our sleeves down or file a goddam 2407 to change a take off time by ~30 minutes. Send that to the CSAF. Wasn't that the gist of what got pushed up to Gen. Welsh after his call for comments? It's not the endless deployments, it's not the state-side TDYs, it's not missing holidays that's making people pissed off, not me at least. Those things are mitigated by killing the enemy and doing some other good work for the nation. What's making guys pissed off is the stupid shit that's most prevalent back home or in other REMF-infested locations. That's what I'm complaining about WRT new wing policies and what others are talking about in the numerous threads on this topic I would venture. You have a step van? Man, I should bitch about having to walk... So what's the bigger picture here rainman? My BL problem is loss of mission focus. Other commands seem to be leading indicators, but my limited experiences with certain deployed locations as well as the fresh asspains new leadership have brought upon us have further solidified to me that this is the big problem. How far up AGL to I have to be to realize that a loss of mission focus really isn't the problem?

This was not true in my class at least. We knew we had one gunship to HRT and one to CVS before the drop. Our flt/cc did our drop differently though and let us choose on drop night instead of being assigned based on dream sheets. The two guys who wanted gunships were right next to each other (sts) in class rank, so the higher ranking dude got his pick and he chose HRT and the lower ranking guy got the Canon H-model. Non-standard but it worked for us.

Look at all those uniform infractions! Disgusting. Morale patches, zippers not to the top of the name tag, 3rd from the left has sleeves rolled up. Q3 if ya ask me...

?? Comment on the circular "supporting" vs "supported" derail...it's not that I don't care how we talk about operations or don't want the AF to get credit where credit is due, but that I don't think we're helping our case with conversations like this. I thought quiet professionals meant hacking the mish and not giving a shit if the random person on the street even knew you were there let alone if you were the "supported" service or some nonsense like that. What I do care about right now is what my senior leadership is telling me and how that flies in the face of everything I've learned up to this point and everything that I believe to be true about being an officer and an aviator. That's whats wrong with my little corner of the Air Force.

This shit again? Who the fuck cares...I vote all this dick measuring about "supporting" vs "supported" is killing this thread right now.

My big takeaways: 1. You are an officer first and a pilot or AFSOC or a particular squadron second. Anecdote about how you should not feel forced to conform to a particular squadron mentality as a young officer. I.E. "this is how we've always done it around here LT" is insufficient evidence for any officer to do or not do something. 2. Enforce all rules equally; slippery slope; can't trust you to do the big things without the little things, etc. etc. Mentioned sleeves, baseball hats, and the effect those things have on the enlisted perception of the importance of rules. 3. Don't put yourself in a situation where you can be accused of being in the wrong, especially if you have had any drinks. Accused the operative word, not necessarily guilty of anything. This was WRT several recent ARIs involving officers. 4. Be careful with social media and his personal technique is not to be "friends" with anyone junior in rank than himself. Not meant to be guidance because there is no AF guidance. Someone feel free to chime in if I'm way off base or missing something important. I could tell you the general feeling afterwards but I'm betting you can either guess or ask one of the dudes who was there in person.

Well f*cking said. 3 of my top 4 leaders I've personally served with were helo dudes so generally I hope for more former pave guys so cycle through, but jesus mary and joseph the things that were said in that auditorium made me damn near vomit. I'll enforce every rule and regulation equally on a cold day in hell. TPS reports not equal to gear down, they're just not. As an educated and expensively-trained officer I strongly believe one of the chief reasons they pay us more is because we're supposed to use judgement and discretion. Zipper not to the top of the name tag? NBD. Not on time, on target downrange? Prepare to get your nuts crushed, and that's exactly how it should be.

Sounds about right. The only part of the SECDEF's comments I didn't like was an acknowledgement that many current service members would benefit from a change. If they grandfather people in (and they damn well better), it should be optional so those who know they're getting out can switch programs and get something out of the deal. Good thoughts all around though

I believe we've clearly experienced this phenomenon in the F-15 community already

Zrooster, had to reach way back in time to find this (thanks google site search!) but I know I've said the exact same thing on occasion around here too. Here's your quote from 2009 (I kept the best parts intact): Having said this in 2009 and knowing you sat in the same room I sat in today, I unfortunately think everything you ranted about here was just validated as the new policy of a certain installation. All rules are equally important; officers are not allowed to exercise discretion; rolling up your sleeves somehow telegraphs to your troops that they can break rules; etc. etc. etc. And to top it off, if you're in a situation where you can be accused of breaking a rule, especially if it can be written up as an ARI, you're are guilty of conduct unbecoming an officer just for being in that situation. Never mind if you're actually guilty of anything or were even actually taking part in said event...disgusting. I threw up in my mouth at least 3 times in about an hour's time span.

I got this infared last year. Have a small patio so needed something that wasn't so damn huge and this fit the bill. The infared has been surprisingly awesome, cooks a mean steak. I like it a lot and a buddy of mine just got the bigger version and has enjoyed it as well.

No way man, the 40mm is my bread and butter. With the civilians running so close to the zombies I like the 40 much better. CH, nice score.