Timbonez

I made it to the range today and put another 500 rounds through the Glock. Ammo consisted of 200rds of 115gr FMJ Sellier & Bellot and 300rds of 115gr PMC. Performance from the Glock was much, much better today with these two ammo types than with the Prvi Partizan crap I had. Anyway on to the review: Glock 17 Gen4 9mm semi-auto Safe Action Steel slide and polymer frame Dot front sight and U-line rear sight 4.49" barrel, polygonal 17+1 round capacity I bought the pistol brand new for $423 after tax from a local dealer that is a preferred Glock dealer. They get preferential treatment (I think) from Glock and also can sell the pistols at greatly reduced prices compared to other gun stores. The case is marked with a blue label, which designates it as a pistol for the preferred dealers to sell to law enforcement. Included are EMS, firefighters, military, etc. You get the discount pricing set forth by Glock. The package came with the pistol, two removable backstraps (more on this later), a tool for removing the trigger housing (backstrap) pin, 3 17-round magazines, a useless gun lock, and the standard documentation expected when buying a new pistol. There are several differences between the Gen4 line of Glocks and the third generation Glocks. Before I describe them I just wanted to note that Glock will continue to produce the third generation models. The most obvious, external difference on the Gen4s is the new rough texture. It is more aggressive than the third generation but not quite as aggressive as the RTF pistols with fish scale cocking serrations Glock put out. Another external difference is the use of removable backstraps. The Gen4 comes with a 2mm shorter backstrap, compared to the third generation, that is a physical part of the frame. There is a medium size attachment, which mimics the same size as previous generations, and a large size attachment which is 2mm larger than the previous generations. You simply remove the backstrap pin and place the M or L backstrap on the pistol and drive in the larger backstrap pin to use them. They are affixed by this pin and by hooking on the small opening at the heel of the pistol. I prefer the smaller grip size, so I do not use the M or L attachment. Another major difference is the use of a dual captured recoil spring assembly à la the baby Glocks (26, 27, 29, etc.) rather than the single captured assembly from previous generations. This design is very strong and it works well with the Gen4 G22s and G23s. Some, myself included, have had problems with the Gen4 G17. If you've read my previous posts on this subject you should already know that the RSA is very strong. Weaker ammo may choke and the shooter can experience FTEs and FTFs. I've already explained what I did to try and help offset the problem, and there is plenty of literature out there on the issue and fixes so I won't belabor the point. With this last outing (500rds) I didn't experience any FTEs or FTFs. Finally, the other change was the the magazine catch was enlarged and is now reversible. The Glock magazines that come with the pistol will work with the catch on either side. The older Glock magazines will also work in the pistol, but only if the catch is on the traditional left side. I assume Gen4 Glock mags will also work in older models. In addition to the 3 17rd magazines, I purchased another 2 17rd magazines and a 33rd magazine. Through the course of three range days I put a total of 1174 rounds through the gun. This included several brands of FMJs, Remington Golden Sabers, and Federal Hydra-Shoks. All 174 of the hollowpoints functioned flawlessly. As mentioned before, the only problem ammo I ran into was the PPU. The gun was not cleaned at all and only lubed before I started shooting. Accuracy is more than acceptable. I shoot this pistol more accurately than all my other handguns except for maybe one or two of my 1911s. The distances I shot at were between 7 and 20 yards. Headshots, with time in between shots, are easily made at all distances. Quick center mass shots to the lungs and heart areas are consistent as well. The sights are very useable, but they are plastic. The white dot on the front is large and the rear sight U-line shape is not overwhelming or obnoxious. I will probably change the sights out with some Heinie Ledge plain black front and rear. This will help facilitate one handed racking of the slide. The trigger pull is not too bad and is always consistent. It's also very easy to pull the trigger fast. It's no tuned 1911 trigger, but it works. It's important to mention that Glocks are not double action only pistols. They are striker fired. When a round is chambered the pistol's striker is slightly precocked. As the shooter pulls the trigger, their finger disengages the trigger safety. The trigger bar moves rearward with the pull and disengages the firing pin safety. Finally, the trigger bar acts as a drop safety preventing the firing pin from launching forward if dropped. Once the trigger bar reaches the end of its rearward travel it is deflected away, allowing the firing pin to be released. This makes for a relatively safe weapon without any traditional external safety. Here is an animation that should explain it very well. I detail stripped the pistol after the range today and cleaned it. This is by far the easiest handgun I've ever completely disassembled and reassembled. By my count the pistol is made up of 29 parts (pins, springs, slide, frame, barrel, etc.), not including the magazine and its parts. That's a lot fewer than most pistol designs out there. Aesthetically speaking I really like this Glock. It's not as pretty as some classic pistols, but it is very utilitarian working and looking and that commands a certain charm. I carried the pistol today in a POS Uncle Mike's IWB holster and it was quite comfortable despite being a duty sized pistol. I'll continue to carry it with the Uncle Mike's until my Raven Concealment holster comes in. That's pretty much it. I'll stay away from Pros and Cons on this one as most people already have a feel for Glocks.

Sweet deal on the rifle! In my experience many gun shops, the dedicated ones too, employ individuals that are inept. A lot of them also give bad advice. Let us know how the Savage and TC shoot.

That's a good deal, especially since it comes with a Larue mount. 72mako, I've never heard of them. It would be nice if there was ballistic information and gel tests available. This linky might steer you in the right direction for defensive ammunition selection. There is also a link with a PDF file within that link that has a lot of good info provided by the FBI.

You ask for examples and then call them hearsay because I wasn't there? WTF? There is clear documentation to shootings for those to review. Now you're being disingenuous. Opinion, copy. So let's leave it at that. We have differing opinions.

Let me rephrase. The standard service pistol calibers ARE inadequate compared to a rifle or shotgun, but that doesn't mean they can't get the job done. What makes them attractive is their relative effectiveness vs. size, weight, and velocity. Your personal experience really means nothing. That's a sample group of one, and it's hearsay. I'm not trying to be a dick and knock your experience, but it doesn't really prove your point. It is more important to have correct shot placement with a pistol caliber than it is with a rifle or shotgun. Look at the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. FBI agents used .38s, 9mm, and shotguns against two assailants. One took 6 shots before succumbing and the other took 12. Neither were on any drugs. The point is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement. That being said, also look at the current shooting in Tucson. Rep. Giffords was shot in the head with a 9mm and survived. Thankfully she wasn't killed. Brick, I thought you were using 100yd rifle targets. I don't know why I thought that. Regardless, that is still pretty decent shooting, and like you said it is much more precise closer in at normal pistol engagement ranges. I can totally respect your .45 caliber choice. I wasn't trying to spark a .45 vs 9mm debate, as I'm a fan of both.

11 holes in one? Why not go for broke and make it 18?

Nice review, Brick. You're definitely a better shot than me if you're getting consistent 8 rings at 25 yards. It's interesting you listed 9mm as a con. You're much better off with that caliber because it's cheaper to train with, and all pistol calibers are inadequate man-stoppers anyway. Shooting 9mm is easier than .40 and .45 for most people as well because of less perceived recoil. Shot placement is most important, followed by penetration, with expansion following that. Modern 9mm bullet technology is more than adequate to fulfill the last two requirements, as long as you fulfill the first.

This is true, but you can also get an adjustable gas plug that will allow you to use heavier bullets. Here and Here. Quick Gen4 Glock 17 update: I went Glocking this morning with temps hanging around the mid-teens and light snow. I thought I'd be the only idiot there, but there was a guy shooting a rifle near me. Anyway I brought 300 PPU 115gr FMJs (thankfully this was the last of this crap ammo), 51 Remington Golden Saber 147gr HPJs (I love this ammo), and 21 Federal 147gr Hydra-Shoks. I fired the 72 hollowpoints first with no trouble at all. Feeding was smooth and ejection was strong and consistent. The PPU was still giving me problems, but only during the last 150 rounds. This ammo is VERY weak overall, but that doesn't seem to bother the Glock so much. What the Glock does choke on is the inconsistent powder loads from cartridge to cartridge. During the course of fire I had 3 FTEs and 4 FTFs with the PPU ammo. With the FTEs I could feel the shots were even weaker than the rest of the ammo. The FTFs are also due to weak ammo. They at least eject, but the rearward movement of the slide isn't far enough to provide enough forward momentum for the recoil spring assembly. This causes the cartridge to start feeding on the ramp but then get get stuck at the beginning of the chamber at the top of the barrel hood. Like I said the PPU 9mm is inconsistent shot to shot. Felt recoil was all over the place, indicating poor quality control with this type of ammo. Another vice of the 9mm PPU is that it is extremely dirty. I don't think I've ever used any other brand handgun ammo, in any caliber, that is so filthy. In the past I've used PPU 5.56/.223 ammo for my ARs with no problems, but now I think I am just going to avoid that brand altogether. Luckily I have 1000 rounds of 9mm PMC 115gr FMJs that will be here Tuesday, and I'm also going to head to Wally World this weekend and pick up some WWB to test them. I'm expecting better results with these brands, but who knows what will happen? The Glock has a very strong recoil spring, which defensive loads don't seem to mind at all, but weaker range ammo seems to hiccup. In 2 Ranges sessions I've fired: 500 FMJs 153 Remington Golden Saber HPJs 21 Federal Premium Hydra-Shoks 674 total rounds fired As mentioned before the gun was wiped down and lubed prior to the first range session. No additional cleaning, lubrication, or other preventative maintenance has been performed. I'll keep it that way, until I'm satisfied it is a reliable duty/defensive handgun.

That's pretty sweet. Do you have any pics of the M1? Which manufacturer? I have a Harrington and Richardson that I dated to being produced during the Korean war. Most of the parts match and the furniture isn't original, but I don't really care about that as long as it shoots.

M2, they're like tabletops.

Good story, and it goes to show you that decent human beings still exist.

1) Agree 2) This was covered in your first point and is thus redundant. 3) Disagree. That being said, many states who issue concealed carry permits require the individual to qualify shooting their firearm and then re-qualify when they need to renew.

I never said he did. Unlike you, I can respect nsplayr's viewpoints. Show me exactly where I said this. What does this have to do with the topic? If you can't come to terms that it is currently within someone's rights to own a 75-round magazine, a machinegun, and so on then you are more than welcome to move to a country where your rights are limited. ETA: Nsplayr, I own a Remington 870 with a 20" barrel and deer sights. One of the benefits of the 870 is that you can easily swap out barrels to fit your needs. One shotgun receiver and different barrels will allow you to fill a home defense role, clay/trap shooting, and hunting. You can also buy magazine extensions that will increase you capacity by a few shells.

Nsplayr, how are creating more gun laws going to stop crimes committed with guns? Look at the North Hollywood shootout. Two men created fully automatic weapons illegally and used illegal "high capacity" magazines. The Columbine shooters acquired their guns illegally through straw purchases. After the VT massacre there was talk about creating more "gun free" zones, even though VT was already a "gun free" zone. That seemed to work out very well. Bad guys don't care about laws. So please explain to me how creating more gun control makes us safer. It takes away the ability for law abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and innocent people around them. How does M2 having a 75-round magazine for his AK type rifles, hurt anyone or make anyone less safe?

Maybe he was trying to be nice to the French. It's a pretty ridiculous comment anyway.

Did you even bother to read my first statement?

A classic thread now ruined... I'm not a fan of personal attacks, but Pancake, you're an idiot. You are the type of American that appreciates the loss of personal/inalienable rights for increased "security." Once they're gone, they're extremely difficult to get back. Your lack of support for the 2nd amendment shows your disrespect for what the the Bill of Rights stands for. They are natural born rights not to be fucked with by a government. The Founding Fathers were smart enough to add them to the Constitution, because they knew pricks like you would want to subjugate their fellow man. Eat a bag of dicks and choke yourself.

To him.

I guess we're fortunate that you're wrong. There is more than enough regulation on firearms in this country, and it's convoluted and confusing. I'm sure what M2 expressed is justifiable, because every time something like this happens the anti-gun crowd lashes out and tries to add more confusing and unnecessary regulation. There is already enough infringement on the Bill of Rights.

Oh well. The wife knows some French and I was having her translate. Basically they got water in the engines and the radar operator bailed out near a monastery/church or whatever where the nuns mistook him to be a German. They beat the crap out of him and then the mother superior called the squadron to pick him up. That wasn't the first time the pilot and RO had problems with their airplane. Previously they had bailed out of an airplane and wandered in the mountains for a few days.

Nice find, Bluto. Keep shooting it and let us know how it works out. I decided I'd give a quick update on my Gen4 Glock 17 before I gave a full up review. I went shooting today and brought 302 rounds with me, 200 115gr Prvi Partizan (PPU) and 102 147gr Remington Golden Sabers. I had heard reports of the Gen4 G17s having feeding and/or extracting/ejecting issues because of the stout recoil spring. The Gen4s use a double captured recoil spring assembly (RSA), and apparently the weight of the spring in the G17 is the same as the G22. Since the G22 is a .40 S&W weapon it would seem that the heavier spring in a 9mm would be too much. Well it was for the PPU. I experienced several failures to feed, eject, and extract. All failures were encountered with the PPU ammo. Since this is just range ammo, it is not loaded particularly heavy. Ejection was erratic from the 4 o'clock position thrown just inches to ejecting over the top and the left side of the weapon. I experienced zero failures with the Golden Sabers, and you could tell the difference in recoil between the two types of ammo. Ejection was strong in the 4 o'clock region and a couple of feet away from me and the pistol. I can't say I'm particularly happy with the results, but I'm not totally upset either. PPU handgun ammo is very weak, so I was sort of expecting this from that ammo. I'm glad I didn't run into any problems with my defensive ammo of choice, but more testing will need to be performed to ensure this pistol works all right. I still have another 300rds of PPU to burn through, and I think I'll start shooting other types of range ammo (Winchester White Box, PMC, etc.) to make sure they function ok. I'll also be putting another 102rds of 147gr Golden Sabers through the G17 again as well. When I do provide the review, I expect to have between 1,000 and 2,000rds through the pistol. Some particulars before I went shooting: - Reports indicated that locking the slide back for about a week on Gen4 G17s allows the RSA to take a set. This does not weaken the spring (just like a loaded magazine does not weaken your mag spring any appreciable amount), rather it lets the spring take a set. I locked mine back for about 2.5 days. - The pistol was field stripped and wiped with a towel just to get some of the carbon from the factory test fire removed. It wasn't cleaned but Slip EWL 30 was added to the slide rails and frame rails. Slip gun lubricant was added to where the connector meets the trigger bar. - I loaded the 3 magazines with 17rds each and they sat like that for about 2 days. - Each magazine was numbered with my wife's orangey-pink nail polish. I know, it's gay, but it allows me to keep track of problems with particular mags and the nail polish lasts a good while. Anyway the gun will remain uncleaned and no additional lubrication will be added. The slide will also remain locked back for a few more days. I'll provide you guys with a review once I get to the aforementioned 1k-2k rounds.

That rifle looks good, M2. Old guns with history are awesome. Hope you find what you're looking for.

Gas Man, thanks. I'm going to buy the extended slide stop from Vickers Tactical when they become available. I'll also replace the sights in due time. M2 and anyone else who shoots 7.62x54r, Aim Surplus has some 440rd cans for $72.95. After you figure in shipping, total cost per round will probably be 17-19 cents. Romanian Silvertip

Well I did the unthinkable and bought a tupperware gun again. This one is a brand new (as in it left the factory after Dec 21st 2010) Gen4 Glock 17, $423.95 out the door. My first gun was a USP Compact in .40 S&W, and my second was a Glock 19. I sold both of those because I didn't like the feel of them. I also owned a mid-size M&P45, which was sold to a friend. We'll see how this Glock fares. Expect a review for this pistol before my BHPs. I've shot those a lot, so I think I'll focus on shooting this pistol and provide a review for it first. By the way, M2, you are the Axis of Evil. Nice rifle.

PCSing is the only thing keeping me from SBRing an AR-15.