Prozac

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jordan-b-peterson-podcast/id1184022695?i=1000552617590 Just listened to Jordan Peterson’s recent podcast on the situation in Ukraine. Apologies if it’s already been posted…this thread has become a bit onerous to sift through. In this piece, Peterson interviews Dr Frederick W. Kagan who is eminently knowledgeable on the subject. While I often disagree with Peterson, he asks pointed questions in the interview that address a lot of what we’ve been discussing here. It’s a bit long, but an excellent discussion. Recommend anyone with a real interest in understanding the situation better give it a listen.

Well, I for one do not think he’s acting rationally, which is a big part of what concerns me. His previous military adventurism in Ukraine, Georgia and elsewhere have been generally popular with Russians. Perhaps he thought if he took that to the next level it would help him consolidate power further and that he really would be greeted as a liberator in Ukraine. Whether he was acting in his own interests or those of the state, he has miscalculated badly. I see no upside for him or Russia in the foreseeable future if he stays on his current path.

Flea, I suspect that when we dig down we will find that we have an important fundamental difference here: I believe that liberal democracy is by far the best system of government and society that man has developed so far (not perfect by a long shot, but that’s another debate). While I agree that we’ve had some recent stumbles in how and where we choose to project our values, a country that asks to be a part of the team is a much different animal than one that has our values attempted to be forced upon it. When you have countries like Ukraine, Poland, Georgia, and the Czech Republic that have seen the other side and decide that they want to be a part of the free world, we should welcome them with open arms. A free and prosperous Ukraine is a Ukraine that doesn’t harbor terrorists, criminals, and despots that make the world less safe. When you scale that concept up to scores of countries to include the vast majority of Europe, the world is a much safer place. So yes, I do believe that a free Ukraine that is fully under the European umbrella, including NATO has tangible benefits for every American. I also don’t believe for a minute that any of this is about border security or historic power struggles for Putin. Those are just the excuses he uses to act the way he does. This is about power and greed, plain and simple.

We don’t. But we can come to the conclusion that our adversary’s issues are incompatible with our own goals and values. Otherwise, why fight for anything, ever? Look, I agree that it’s vitally important to be aware of our own cultural biases and realize that not everyone thinks like us. That doesn’t mean capitulation though, especially in the face of bald aggression. As much as I hate Hitler comparisons, I think this is one of the few times the analogy is appropriate: Hitler had a lot of “issues”. Jews, territory, resources, and ego were just a few of them. By your rationale, if we only could’ve seen the world through Hitlers eyes we would’ve come to the conclusion that if we just let him exterminate a few million people and mow over a few countries, all would be right with the world.

So originally you said that the West “openly supported” the “violent overthrow of the Russian government” but now you admit that’s not the actual truth, but rather Putin’s perceived truth? Am I reading that right? In any case, why are you advocating giving a dictator what he wants simply because he sees the world through a different lens? This isn’t rocket science. His lens is the wrong one. Shitting on your own people and your neighbors in order to consolidate your own power and wealth are wrong. There’s only one side to be on here and it’s not hard to figure out which side that is.

What are you talking about and which side are you on? This sounds like a statement that could’ve been released by the Russian foreign ministry. I do not recall any serious attempt to overthrow Putin in the last decade or ever. Nor do I recall NATO or the West openly or otherwise supporting a coup. Doing so would’ve surely been detrimental to the stability of Russia’s nuclear arsenal which has been one of the West’s top priorities in dealing with Russia. We have tended to support calls from within Russia for things like election reform and freedom of speech amongst others which are values no Westerner should be apologetic for espousing anywhere.

It’s no secret to Russia or anyone else that NATO has always been about collective defense. No “insider baseball” necessary. Putin would certainly like the world to believe that narrative though. It makes it easier for him to threaten his neighbors. I’m sure he REALLY likes it when people like US service members, politicians, and media influencers buy off on that narrative. Stop falling into his trap.

Knowing your enemy doesn’t mean giving them a pass to do whatever they want. Don’t tell me that’s not what you were advocating when you said NATO expansion should stop because that’s EXACTLY what Putin wants. You want to know your enemy to avoid a fight when possible, but also because once in a while you might have no choice but to fight them.

Turns out that the post-cold war thaw was too good to be true and it was always an uneasy peace. We probably missed some opportunities to engage with Russia in the 90s but as soon as Putin came to power the jig was up. Unfortunately his ascent conveniently (for him) coincided with our distractions in the Middle East and Afghanistan. We couldn’t have picked a worse time to take our eye off the great power geopolitical ball and now we have a real bad actor to deal with in Russia and, depending on our response to this crisis, potentially China. It’s time to buck up and face the new adversaries/same as the old adversaries in the only terms they’ve ever understood. The good news is the free world is taking notice and moving in the right direction. The question is: Are we willing to fully commit? It is an absolute tragedy and travesty that Ukrainians are paying for our distraction with their lives and maybe their country. We need to take the 30 thousand foot view though & understand that if we have that commitment, we can achieve our goals without a direct confrontation that is likely to go nuclear. The leaders who won the Cold War understood that concept. Time to settle back into those old rhythms.

Well they’re sure as hell a threat to Ukraine. The Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, and all of the other former Soviet/now NATO countries absolutely see the value in NATO. Ask yourself this: Do you think Putin would be less emboldened to move in on former Warsaw Pact nations if they hadn’t joined NATO? Would he allow them to exist peacefully on his border with their free press and their buzzing economies and their Western ideals? I’ll answer that for you: Fuck no. There would be Russian puppet governments in all of those countries and the ones that resisted would be given the treatment Ukraine is getting right now. Ukraine’s biggest regret right now is probably that they didn’t move to join NATO sooner. Why didn’t they? Well it took them a while to shake off the pro Putin puppet government that Moscow tried to force on them a’la my argument above. The sad thing is that this is still probably going to end poorly for Ukraine. And then Moldova and Georgia will come right after. You are SO far off base in your assessment. NATO protection for countries that wish to be democratic and free has never been more important.

It seems there are many people who want to somehow fit this war into their globalist cabal narrative/conspiracy theory & that they’re willing to give a brutal dictator who is now killing civilians en masse a pass while claiming western leaders are the evil and stupid ones. Putin himself couldn’t have come up with a better lie. I’m sure he revels in the fact that American “patriots” are singing his praises. Pathetic.

Less than 5 minutes in & they’re already apologizing for Putin and cupping his balls. No need to listen to any more of their pro-despotic drivel. Go post that garbage somewhere else.

Very interesting. Russian military rank & file may not be entirely in lock step with Putin or their leadership: Shashank Joshi (@shashj) Tweeted: “in some cases, Russian troops have deliberately punched holes in their vehicles’ gas tanks, presumably to avoid combat, the official said. The Pentagon official declined to say how the military made these assessments” https://t.co/eIdOFOBxGP

The difference is that Iraq and Afghanistan were relatively low risk conflicts that were a nice place to go test our new toys and not take a lot of losses. It’s a different thing altogether when two nuclear armed superpowers (at least that’s how Russia looks at itself) go head to head. The risk profile and the potential for a catastrophic miscalculation go WAAAYYY up.

Piecing information from multiple sources that have interviewed armed services committee members who received classified briefings today, it sounds like the Russians are adjusting strategy & preparing to use overwhelming force. Words like “disturbing” and “shocking” are being used to describe the short timeline that the pentagon thinks Ukrainian cities may fall. May be a difficult 24hrs ahead and the imagery is likely to get ugly(er). Here’s hoping the Ukrainians find many targets for their javelins & NLAWs and make this advance as costly as possible for Russia. As much as I admire his courage, it may be time for Zalenskyy to get out of Kyiv and set up a provisional government in the Western part of Ukraine. Hope I’m wrong & the Russians are stopped in their tracks.

Probably doesn’t end well for their families back in Moscow. Russians have a rich history of soaking up casualties. I don’t think this ends until they run out of: 1. Warm bodies, 2. Fuel, or 3. Money. On a side note, how the hell are Ukrainian air assets still operating effectively? The Russians should’ve had air supremacy on day one. Just another head scratcher in the long list of why the Russians are operating the way they are. Part of me wonders if this isn’t some sort of “soft” coup where Russian commanders are throwing the game, knowing that the embarrassment will likely force Putin from power.

Please. Any country on the planet that is facing no-shit potential annihilation would act in the same manner, including yours.

Does it really matter? The Obama admin refused lethal aid and, in retrospect, that was a mistake. His successor’s attempt to extort political favors in exchange for weapons was a moral abomination, even if weaponry eventually made it to the country. I watched Mitt Romney do an interview on CNN this morning & even that network’s assessment was that he was right and Obama was wrong in 2012. The point is that there is plenty of blame to go around for how we ended up here. None of it matters at this point. We are at a watershed moment in Europe’s history and indeed the World’s. The only thing that matters now is how we move forward from here. This is bigger than a single president or which party happens to hold power at the moment. The choices we make now will affect multiple administrations for years to come, and we need to implement coherent policies that will withstand and transcend political bickering.

Damn it. What’s the first rule of fight club? Opsec man! You’ve said too much already. 😎

WOLVERINES!!! 🤘

I admire your vigor but…. How’s the hangover this morning?

Let’s not forget that there is another potential adversary on the other side of the world that has similar designs on another young democracy. While the current situation gives one hope that China would be seriously rethinking any Taiwan invasion right now, we still need to keep a capable deterrent force in the Western Pacific. As much as I want to see Ukraine emerge victorious in this fight, I just don’t think that direct conflict between NATO and Russia is a valid or viable strategy. Even in the awful event that Ukraine falls, Russia has already lost the wider strategic clash. They will end up isolated, with a newly awakened and much stronger NATO on their doorstep. I support continuing to supply Ukraine with whatever weaponry and support will help them kill Russians and make Putin’s life more painful but I think we need to keep our powder dry at the moment.

Photo from 2013 but I still like it

Good article discussing the wake up call the West is receiving at the moment. Hopefully voices like this become dominant in the current geopolitical discussion. It’s time to acknowledge reality and wean ourselves away from the illiberal, totalitarian influences in the world. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/02/us-europe-russia-putin-new-world/622917/

Senator Rubio suggesting that Putin may not be all there which is…ominous. Marco Rubio (@marcorubio) Tweeted: I wish I could share more,but for now I can say it’s pretty obvious to many that something is off with #Putin He has always been a killer,but his problem now is different & significant It would be a mistake to assume this Putin would react the same way he would have 5 years ago