Disco_Nav963

Slow your roll OSEY, and get that sarcasm detector checked out. If you'd been around here for more than 5 minutes you'd know that (1) I usually pump the proto-ABMs full of sunshine (see post #67 above) and value what they bring to the fight, and (2) I've been out of the jet for ~15 months. So the last time I sat in on a weapons debrief was... about 16 months ago. Yes, I used to watch tape debriefs when I was an FTU IN. In my ops squadron I worked in DOW — by choice — and many of my best friends were and are ABMs. I was just trying to dispell what Prosuper was throwing out with regard to the inevitability of an ABMer being hated by flight deck and along the way highlight that it's (counterintuitively) easier to develop a bad rep as an older guy -- i.e. the horror stories of MCCs that don't understand PIC authority (I've only seen it once), the SD OG exec attached flyer that shows up to piss in the AC's cereal bowl over the Net during the debrief b/c he *gasp* didn't stop other crewmembers from wearing ballcaps in flight, etc. ... aaaand save the guy some grief over "transitions." I've heard O-5 ABMs say it and it's always uncomfortable. LL, I think you're working off dated gouge (it really used to be that bad, or so I hear) and misinterpreting good-natured ribbing as legit hate. OSEY, I heard that rumor about FEs... A real shame if that comes to pass. Good on you for learning some flight deck mission planning skillz (would have been really helpful to have someone like you on nights when I was one-deep on the OEF MPC back in the day!). I used to be able to send prank messages from your consoles, probably less useful. I did update the ONE Surveillance kits from time to time, fill in at the mIRC desk in the MPC, trade Falconview tricks /w the couple of ASOs we had in DOW, etc. Probably less useful that the stuff you've picked up, but I was no blue curtain-closer.

Let me caveat one thing Prosuper just said... Transition is the entire period you are doing pattern work. Multiple patterns is multiple patterns, not multiple "transitions." Goats ABMS saying "transitions" is a flight deck pet peeve. But don't worry, you are not fated to have them not like you (especially if you are female Lt AWO Yummypants). Just have some SA and don't self-marginalize by only hanging out with the weapon bros when you get to your squadron just b/c you've been hanging out with them through Tyndall and the FTU. And some day when you're an MCC, never forget that while you might be a Major, the Captain AC still outranks you on the jet!

I'm assuming they at least put a permanent filling on it, yes? If so you should be fine. I had a root canal performed on an upper molar in 2007 that received a hardcore filling rather than a crown, and subsequently passed an FC1.

Someone's sarcasm detector is inop... Repeat writeup around here.

Ha... Makes the Bomber functionals look like champs for updating theirs in spring 2011.

The latest info on AFSOC assignments from the MAF/AFSOC page on AFPC is: "Mobility Operations - Combat System Officer (CSO) Special Operations Force (SOF) Opportunities: Navigators with a C-130 background would be considered for opportunities in the AC-130H/U; MC-130H/J/P/W; 6 SOS; and U-28. On a case-by-case basis, KC-135 Navigators will be considered to fill positions in the AC-130U as either a Nav or a Fire Control Officer (FCO), or in the AC-130H as a FCO. KC-135 Navs will also be considered for cross-flow opportunities in the U-28. U-28 positions will be restricted to applicants who weigh less than 195 pounds and have a PT score of at least 'GOOD'. Interested applicants should list these among their preferences on the Airman Development Plan. KC-135 Navs should progress to instructor before they will be considered for release to a SOF opportunity."

I transferred from E-3s to BUFFs in early 2011. At the time, manning for 12Rs was over 100% (or so I was told) and 12Bs was in the 85% range. The E-3 community is projected to eliminate the nav position in about a decade, I was lucky enough to have three consecutive squadron commanders (ops squadron guy followed by his successor followed by the schoolhouse squadron commander that was doubly kind enough to let me go after only a year of instructing) and two consecutive OGs that were supportive. Your manning picture and level of leadership support may very. You do have on your side that it looks like the number of nav billets in the Herc world is on a downward slope. As with anything else, kick ass at your primary job and look for opportunities (esp. non-traditional ones) as they develop. I got here by getting into a non-flying deployment working for a B-1 patch and bomber dudes at the Squadron, Group, and Wing level, working hard, and bugging my immediate supervisor about putting in a good word for me with the bomber functional at AFPC (he got the Group/Wing commander on my side, and got the Group commander to put in a good word for me at AFPC as well). Thinking tactically, if I were you I'd try to get somewhere with both C-130Hs and CAF assets under the same roof and try to impress the CAF dudes. Dyess springs to mind (the Airlift Group is under the 7th Bomb Wing, and the 7th Bomb Wing Vice is a nav that crossflowed from KC-135s to B-1s in the '90s... although he will surely be gone by the time you're on the VML to leave your first ops assignment). Start with impressing your MAF bros first though. Wouldn't say anything about wanting to do something outside Herc world until you've been through an AEF cycle and have started paying your dues. If 12M manning is where I think it is, you may have an easier time ultimately getting there via UPT (since the AFPC functionals generally don't keep people from competing for selection boards), but the road is there to crossflow as a nav, however narrow. Good luck.

Not to beat a dead horse, but a discussion with a fellow BUFF dude over beers last night got me thinking of a real world example that we could use to parse out some of the numbers talk above and get to an answer. The real answer is always "It depends," but let's use Libya as a case study. I've heard references to both the BONE's carriage capacity and tanker bridge issues as the reason for the decision to use BONEs vs. BUFFs ("The choice was easy to make: The B-1s could carry double the number of bombs that the B-52s could carry, and tankers were still in short supply," says the AFA article). Based on the reference to "double the number of bombs" I'm guessing we're talking about GBU-31s here... 24 per BONE on 3 CRLs vs. 12 per BUFF on 2 HSABs. None of the published literature (and I have read nothing on the high side about the details of ODYSSEY DAWN, nor would I reference it here anyway) talks about how many weapons were released, since it was a two-ship, let's say 48. I'm talking generalities here because I know nothing about the B-1's performance manual, but I do know she has a shorter range than the BUFF (7,456 statute miles to the BUFF's 8,800)... approx. 85% of the BUFF's unrefueled range. We also know that they can trade a bay full of iron per extra 10,000 lbs of fuel if they want to carry the extra fuel. I'm guessing they didn't though, because that would have diminished their comparative advantage over the Octosaurus. We also know that the BUFF carrying 12 GBU-31s externally carries a fuel penalty that the BONE doesn't have to deal with /w all internal weapons. So bottom line: assume AFRICOM wanted 48x GBU-31s worth of effects, and therefore no internal fuel tanks for purposes of this illustration. I don't know what kind of divert fuel the BONEs carried on this mission or what kind of the BUFF would have carried. I have no idea how many ARs were involved. I don't care. We can do a WAG cost comparison without knowing those numbers. The following are the great circle distances between Barksdale/Minot/Ellsworth to Benghazi (pulled from https://www.gcmap.com/), all statute miles: KBAD-Libya: 6,248 KMIB-Libya: 5,825 KRCA-Libya: 6,091 Doing the math, a BUFF would fly 1.3 times its Wikipedia max range on a round trip from Minot, or 1.4 times the max range on a round trip from Minot. A BONE would fly 1.6 times its max range on the round trip from Ellsworth. So comparing single ship to single ship, the fuel argument favors the BUFF. However, we're talking 4 ship of BUFFs to do the same job a 2 ship of BONEs did. Multiple the above numbers by 4 and 2 respectively, you get a 5.7 multiplier from KBAD, a 5.3 multiplier from Minot, and a 3.3 multiplier from Ellsworth. So without knowing exact numbers, you can see the approximate relationship and we can figure out pretty quickly what cost more in terms of gas. Now let's compare operating costs using the Wheeler numbers from above. I took the round trip distances for all three bases and divided each by the statute mile equivalent of 420 knots groundspeed. Don't know what the winds were; don't know what KTAS BONEs cruise at high altitude, just looking for a good WAG comparison. Taking the round trip time we just got, I multiplied by $72,000/hr for the BUFF and $63,000/hr for the BONE... Then multiplied the BUFF results by 4 and the BONE results by 2. We get $7,451,031.06 for 48 GBU-31s from KBAD, $6,946,583.85 from Minot, and $3,177,913.04 from Ellsworth. Whether we're looking at gas costs or operating costs for the bombers only, the B-1 cost about half as much as the BUFF would have cost to get the supported commander his desired effects. The score changes if you change criteria like the weapons and distances involved. If you already have bombers in your AOR instead of a bringing them in for a one shot mission from CONUS, and you need GBU-38s instead of GBU-31s for instance, the B-1 can only carry two more weapons and with less fuel efficiency (18 weapons vice 16 -- though Dyess recently tested a new rotary launcher that would up that to 48), kind of balances out. Only B-52s can carry CALCM of course. Here's another angle: each Bomb Wing only has so much sortie generation capacity. If a contingency pops up and you need 24 bombers generated, you have to wait longer asking Ellsworth to generate all 24 versus asking Ellsworth for 6 and Dyess for 6 and Whiteman for 4 and Barksdale for 8, etc. There's a benefit to diversification. Just based on the BUFF's role in Desert Storm, Noble Anvil, and Iraqi Freedom I highly doubt my jet has seen its last conventional conflict. So we're back to where we began -- it depends. The question is do we want to piss away options by getting rid of an MDS? I vote no. How the politicians and bureaucrats will come down, I have no idea.

Interesting amplifying data from the latest AFA Magazine: (RDT&E funds in current year millions) Program 2011 2012 2013 B-1B 33.1 33.0 16.3 B-2 244.7 280.3 317.0 B-52 129.9 93.8 53.2 LRS 192.8 294.9 291.7 The delta for BUFFs and BONEs is negative in both cases, and works out to a 50% cut over two years in both cases. The delta for the B-2 is up. Long Range Strike took a small cut.

IDK... I've seen my share of Benny Hill ground ops in BUFF world, can't be too much better than BONE world. I wonder if a lot of the assumptions I hear from B-52 people about B-1 maintenance reliability are a little dated. It seems like they do well enough overseas with OCO money to pay for MX, as I'm sure we would if we were in that fight. My biggest fear with dropping the BONE would be the less quantifiable opportunity cost in terms of crew proficiency. BUFF dudes have to maintain CMR status in Nuke, Standoff and Direct Attack--by the nature of recent events and our new MAJCOM, in a world of diminishing O&M funds it isn't going to be Nuke training that suffers. On the conventional side there is a little jack of all trades, master of only a few going on. (Only going to get worse if you believe what AFA was reporting about the force structure plans for after New START hits the BUFF... Every squadron will still be dual-DOCed, we'll just add some more capabilities to the conventional coded tails... Like maybe bring HARPOON back. On top of MALD coming online, even more for the crews to "master" with less flying hours and the same number of exercises/inspections.) Having the BONE around keeps not only those jets in the fleet, but also more crews that can be not only current but proficient at the conventional skillsets that AFGSC considers to be of secondary importance.

They'd better get serious about our sustainment issues then. Like making ex-Captain Dale Brown the program officer.

And the Bone was still single-seat qualing their WSOs...

And they can now be found at most CONUS commissaries, just not for free.

I heard that happened at Thumrait during early-OEF when it was mostly Bone guys and AWACS dudes.

Always thought it was funny that the E-3 had 4 TF-33s and 8 generators, and was limited to 24 hour durations due to engine oil life... And the (non-E)B-52H has 8 TF-33s, only 4 generators, and has historically flown significantly longer than 24 hours, which is a principle I apply on the ground to the whole 3,000 miles/3 months myth.

If you have access to the AF Portal, you can find the consolidated Graduate Programs Requirement Document (GPRD) on some of the ACC TRSS Det websites/Sharepoints. Within it, you can find the projected number of pipeline students each community wants per year through 2015. Wish I could give you more gouge... But it's Sunday and I left my personal CAC reader at home.

UTFSF And who told you C-130s have the shortest FTU btw? E-3s and E-8s have them beat by a significant margin.

Best news I've heard in a long time (in terms of ensuring we have a critical mass of really really good controllers in the crew force, and a supply of SDs and IAWOs at the 4-8 years TAFCSD age that can replace the ones Tinker makes and then hemorrhages. And if I were a young brand new AWO I'd be angling to be part of the crew that is going to turn out the lights at Aviano, but that's just me. Do those that go direct to CRCs get their gate months started right away?

Is she hot?

Not an ABM, but used to be on E-3s. There really needs to be an ABM forum like there is for CSO and RPA... Anyway, location-wise Geilenkirchen (NATO AWACS), Kadena and Elemendorf are typically sought-after first assignments but they only drop to a small percentage of UABMT grads. Most will go to Tinker. Haven't been to Robins, but on the plus side their mission is more interesting, and on the negative side I always hear people say Robins is two hours from everything, but there isn't much in the local area. If you go to USAF E-3s, wherever you go, you'll go to Tinker first... First to the 552 TRS who owns you during contract academic/sim instruction, then to the 966 AACS for flight training. At the 966th you'll do some of your "sorties" in the sim, and for the flights you'll sit on the ground and step to the spare a lot. I'm trying to remember how many rides were in the ABM syllabus when I left (I was a nav instructor at the 966th) and I want to say about 10. Hopefully someone who knows better will speak up. After that, you'll do 2-3 weeks of MQT culminating in a cert brief, then graduate to your gaining squadron. At this point, in the old days, you would have finally gotten your wings and started earning your gate months. I understand that now you graduate from UABMT with wings which is since you don't even know if you're a puker yet. As far as Tinker goes, people b***ch about the 552 ACW but I think it's a little shortsighted... Everyone in the Air Force is overtasked and underfunded/undermanned, there is leadership flail going on everywhere, it's just even harder to manage currencies/checkrides/ancillary training/etc. for squadrons of 330 vice 30 or 60. Have a good attitude and you'll do fine. Morale does not seem noticeably higher in bombers, fighter pilots b***ch on here all the time, so do the AMC bubbas... Bloom where you're planted, you'll do just fine. If you want to do something else after a while, I know two ABMs from my old squadron that just got picked up for UPT. It can happen if you work for it. I think in most squadrons you get two over the shoulder rides before you get signed off Combat Mission Ready. Then it's fly, sim, work in scheduling or SNACKO, and go deploy using a skillset different from what you've spent most of your training focused on (think more "battle management," less controlling). The OKC location is fantastic. AFAIC, it's one of the best cities in America to live in especially for a young dude. Congratulations... You're stepping into an underrated career field with the potential to do a lot and have a lot of fun along the way. The spears you get from fighter dudes, tanker dudes, and your own flight deck? Take them and learn from them. Seize every opportunity you can get to control and get a good debrief. Seize every opportunity you can get to interface with non-fighter dudes and learn their needs (did you know bombers have "fighter" timelines too?). Good luck.

PYB has gotten awfully bored.

Thread revival. The "Shit ___ Say" meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ape62FDOavo... Highlight for me was the non-rated O-5 making fun of customer service at Finance.

Well, there is the EB-52...

Couldn't think of a better place for this one... If anyone has any good stories about buddy f***ers, today is as good a day as any. Let's hear 'em.

Ha, managed to stay away from the sandpit for two years as of next month, but anticipating a move to the subarctic tundra (KMIB) next month. Calibrating expectations accordingly.