Disco_Nav963

Not bad for an NGO do-gooder type. Definitely a 1 on the binary scale.

Cody... Don't know you, but I'm someone who "left Tinker to go kill people and deal out hate." Your instincts are right on. Even if you stay in that jet for your entire career (or until DRAGON), no reason at all to not strive to be the best (as long you're not an ass about it, or a Blue Falcon). In fact, when I was there some of the pilots and all of the ABMs would assume you were a mouth breather by virtue of being a nav until you proved otherwise. Good luck, eye of the tiger, etc., etc.

B-52s is 9 months for navs and ~8.25 months for EWs. E-3s, it's 4 weeks of academics and however long it takes you to get 5 effective training sorties and a Form 8 check... Usually 3-4 months once you factor in two weeks of MQT at the end.

Same one SurelySerious mentioned.

I like the bit about seniors getting the more desirable seats on modes of transportation including aircraft. Always grinds my gears when I get on the rotator and the dozen MSgts from the MXG take all the "business class" seats while dozens of majors, captains and lieutenants suffer the ravages of DVT. However, odds of me citing the AFI next time I'm getting on the rotator: zilch.

Some choice E-8 wisdom from AF.mil: And from the comments: OTOH, this anecdote from the comments made me smile:

No idea how the new students are performing other than the different skillsets have been noted, but no drastic changes are being undertaken until several more classes go through so the FTUs/TRSSs understand what differences reflect individual student differences vs. differences between RND/Pensacola vs. initial set of P-Cola classes/later P-Cola classes after the kinks have been worked out. As far as the FTUs I know something about... B-52: Get your PRP admin certification knocked out before you get here if at all possible (I thought you had to have it done before you could PCS, but apparently some people make it over without it). Course is 9 months long. Seems like most people spend anywhere from 2-6 months casual here (I got here 3 weeks before I started, but that is the exception). Academic phase lasts about 3 months and the days are fairly short offering plenty of opportunity for individual study/recreation with the exception of a few weeks on specific weapons. The flying phase seems like it starts slow and ramps up after the class ahead of you graduates and more sorties get freed up. Sorties range from 2-6 hours in length with 5.5 being about the average. The course builds not only to a Form 8 checkride but also a Conventional Verification capstone brief, so they focus a lot on 3-3 tactics/techniques in addition to the T.O. procedures. Mission planning days are consequently long... Often longer than the flying days. You will fly on average once a week with copious sims in between (total of 20 sorties with the Form 8 check on the 18th). Before hitting the flightline, recommend reading the 3-3 sections on mission planning (i.e. defining training objectives) and crew standards. Students here have a lot more individual responsibility for planning their training than the other FTU I'm familiar with... E-3s: Course is about 4 months long, with about 4 weeks of contract academics (half days on average; copious self-study time), and 6 FTU sorties including the Form 8 check. Two weeks of Mission Qualification Training culminating in a capstone brief follow. Most navs get two MQT sorties in the gaining squadron under supervision of a squadron instructor before being signed off CMR. The FTU sorties range from 5-10 hours; 6-7 is about average. The major limfacs are tanker availability (must get air refueling on 2 of the first 4 flights, and on the pre-check and checkride) and maintenance. As a B-52 student I've never cancelled or been more than a half hour late taking off. As an E-3 instructor, we cancelled lots. Compared to BUFFs, the focus is much more on T.O. procedures and 11-2E-3V3/11-202V3/11-217 type knowledge. We generally let the ABMs worry about tactics. Show up with a good attitude, a willingness to study a little, and figure out when to talk and when to STFU on the net and you'll excel.

I have a .FLV file of it; PM me your e-mail address.

I've never met the man, but I've heard similar anecdotes about him for well over 15 years -- since I was a (don't start throwing things) wet behind the ears CAP cadet. I wouldn't call that gossip, I'd call it a reputation. Deserved or not is open to interpretation, but it is a widely known one within this community.

Dorr has been an AF historian for longer than I've been around, but I would quibble with one thing. If you look at the valor awards database on the AF Crimes website enlisted awards outnumber officers by a wide margin, largely due to the nature of the current conflict. I don't think there is a prejudice against the E side of the house at all. The bias I find more believable is the stuff I've heard anecdotally from Bone guys where (OIF Night 1 type situation) Lt Col Sq/CC gets the DFC and other crew in the same package/same action gets an Air Medal.

More like deployed 4 four months, then home for a year with 30-60 days deployed during that year at a different location, and at least one 14 day major exercise thrown in for spin-up. Could be better; could be worse.

As was mine, and his DO.

It depends. I would presume that if you outright separated and came back in on the rated recall program you'd be subject to whatever limitations other such individuals are under (four year contracts? not sure -- I'm not done /w my initial service commitment, so getting out has never crossed my mind). Short of separating there is a program called Air Force Educational Leave of Absence (AFELA). Details in the same AFI that covers Tuition Assistance (name escapes me). Up to two years off, incurring a new ADSC on a 2 to 1 ratio measured in months, and you get base pay but no BAS or BAH. You still count against unit manning and you still get an OPR every year, but since you can't mention educational attainment on OPRs they will literally be blank OPRs. The program is essentially aimed at the enlisted side of the house. I also don't think you can use TA to pay for courses taken during the AFELA.

Hm... I've never felt discriminated against as a nav, by pilots anyway (I felt some prejudice from ABMs!). I've now had three squadron commanders who were navs (five if you count nav school, but I don't), two Ops Group commanders who were navs, and a wing commander who was a nav. Could it be an AFSOC thing?

Story confirmed. I asked one of the academic contractors about it as soon as I heard the story.

Okay, here's a non-TIB source. Fingers crossed that this is the real deal and not a momentary hiccup. From the 2 FSS public site: Tops in Blue Cancelled Due to budgetary constraints, the Tops in Blue 2011 tour has been postponed until further notice. The tour was scheduled to begin at Barksdale AFB on April 30, 2011 at Hoban Hall. This show has been cancelled. Be sure to watch 2 FSS Happenings. We will let you know as soon as future dates are announced. What can I say, TIB is my White Whale.

I hope not! Discus has seen the e-mail too, so he can confirm that part of it. There hasn't been any official acknowledgment of it on the TIB website, Facebook page, blog, or Twitter account, but I did notice the PA release about the end of their 2010 tour (dated eight days ago) gave a date of 30 April at KBAD for the start of their 2011 tour, but the 2011 tour schedule on the TIB page was updated two days ago and reads "We are working to confirm our 2011 Tour dates. Updates will be posted as soon as they become available." So in six days they went from a firm date to no published dates. Maybe they're hoping to get funded in the FY 2012 budget and have an abbreviated season starting in October (like the NFL, snicker). There have been no posts to the TIB alums wannabe Baseops.net since April 2.

Add'l thought from a FNG. If we're going to do this whole Dual Seat Nav mess, why not just call DSNs OSOs and E-dubs DSOs. The impression I get is that besides being more experienced and hence trusted with more weapons delivery roles, one of the Radar Nav's most important jobs pre-GPS and pre-GPS/Inertially aided munitions was keeping the radar and by extension the navigation solution solid. The old head contract academic instructor-driven syllabus is frontloaded with "old school OAS management appreciation" (nothing wrong with that, from a pyschology standpoint I imagine I'm retaining the information better than if it were presented as a Degraded Ops procedure down the road). However, a lot of that work is pretty automated now and the political reality is that when it counts we aren't going to be dropping munitions without a GPS solution anyway. So the "Radar" title means less than it used to, and the way the newer guys (08 to present) are being treated by the IC to the 2B-52-1 and the RTM is you're either an Experienced DSN and sit mostly in the left seat or an Inexperienced DSN and sit in the right seat except for supervised beans/currencies. So if we're going to keep this concept (which I understand was the outcome of the last Commander's Conference--I imagine the cost savings of not having to send someone back to the FTU until CFIC is substantial), why use the awkward terminology? You are qualified to perform the role and operate the equipment of the Offense Compartment, so why not have Experienced and Inexperienced OSOs. Brings us somewhat in-line with the only other bomber out there with 12Bs... But we wouldn't ape the WSO terminology either since there is no Dual Qual'ing between Offense and Defense. Although, someone did raise a similar concept in a WIC paper subtitled "WSO Concept for the B-52" (the thrust of the paper was about using 4 person crews in certain operational scenarios--don't see it happening, nor do I see us ever being called WSOs if only for historical reasons--but the OSO/DSO concept makes sense). Caveat: I'm not like that other d-bag, and as the new guy I'll answer to whatever they want to call me on the jet including Shirley.

Mother of Pearl... Someone please PM me which squadron that joker is in so I can watch out for him when I get my assignment in a few months.

Thread bump. Got an e-mail via the squadron "All Personnel" distro today saying that the upcoming TIB Barksdale tour stop -- and the rest of their 2011 tour -- has been cancelled due to "budget issues." I seem to recall that when the budget deal between the GOP and the White House/Senate, one of the sweeteners was that certain additional cuts would come from the DoD rather than domestic discretionary. I wonder if this is one of those cuts. If so, that is how you cut the defense budget ladies and gentlemen.

Apparently the guys on "the asset" are now WSOs too -- so says slide 14 from last week's CSO Conference. Is someone acknowledging that while the program might be called CSO, it's still weird to call someone a CSO?

Holy thread bump, Batman! And what a drop. For all the bugs, I wish they had had this program when I commissioned. One question-- Is the EC-130 drop for a Nav or EWO? Or is the FTU making that decision? Side note: I'm starting B-52 DSNIQ on 1 April (crossflowing from another jet, graduated from the old Randolph syllabus in '07) and the rest of my class is apparently made up of Strike Nav grads. Apparently they ended the EWO Bridge course a while back, so the B-1 community was getting zero new accessions and everyone else was split 45% F-15E/45% BUFFs/10% other stuff. Looks like the B-1 piper is starting to get paid with this drop (of course, I understand B-1/F-15E students have a long wait time before they start the FTU).

AFI 33-360 says local guidance can be more restrictive... but cannot contradict higher-level guidance. So don't see how a Wing King could contradict 36-2903. Doubt anyone will be making a federal case out of it though. What happens to the Senior E's running around with moustaches year round though?

I thought you short tour return date moved to the right based on the # of days TDY... So the guy that did the 365 would still be better off than the guy that did 185.

Thread bump. E-3 nav transitioning to BUFFs in a spring 2011 class. What's the latest on the KBAD vs KMIB dbreakdown, length/shape (sts) of the Nav/RN pipeline, etc? What things should I keep in my crosscheck showing up and what are the things I'm going to want to do as a young Captain/FNG to really get spun up when I hit the line? Thanks in advance.