BashiChuni

Even if it’s not a nuclear war, a conventional war with a desperate Putin would be HORRIFIC and it’s something I don’t want to see. you’re crazy to just walk in to a conflict with Russia so confidently

Agree with your post. They have a right sure. I can show you a US rep that is advocating a no fly zone, a US senator openly calling to assassinate Putin, and a former NATO ambassador advocating to arm the Ukrainians with A-10s. Those people help make and shape US policy not you or I. Scary. at this point I agree best COA is to let Russia get bogged down in Ukraine and spend their blood and treasure. This will weaken Putin both domestically and internationally. That is in the best interest of the US.

Great foreign policy “protect the innocent” China is committing war crimes on the Uyghurs and putting them in camps we should attack China! Gotta weigh pros and cons. The pros don’t outweigh the cons and it’s not even close.

The war mongering on this board is sickening. If you want to start world war fucking three over Ukraine you’re a fucking idiot.

Lol. No. They had zero control over those nukes. To say otherwise is just not correct. why should we guarantee we will defend them? We do not care about Ukraine. Period. it’s not a vital national security concern to the United States, but it is to Russia if we left our nukes in turkey would the Turks have the ability to use them?

I think he DEFINITELY considered our western perspective. And he concluded that NATO/the west will be mad at his invasion but not get involved directly. And he’s been proven correct. and I wouldn’t say we are “culpable”, it’s still Putin’s fault for doing this. I’m saying the narrative that Putin is “crazy and illogical” is not correct. Understanding the WHY behind his actions are critical. And he does have some legitimate reasons for the actions he is taking (in his mind). There are things we could have done as the west to cool things down.

Agree with some of this. But it’s not just understanding HOW we got here, it’s understanding how NOT to get to WW3. I think we all agree that’s a bad thing. To not get a full war between nuclear powers, it’s in our best interests to know what actions we take that piss off our adversary. And if you want to piss your adversary off, know what the consequences are. the problem is you all are REACTING to Putin and not anticipating his next moves or motives based on what HIS security goals are in this case the consequences of continuing to poke Putin COULD be WW3. Just be aware and ready to fight it if that’s acceptable to how you see the geopolitical landscape. given the horrendous US foreign policy blunders since the 1950s I don’t have a lot of confidence in how we will solve this.

Ok they never had nukes first of all. Those were always controlled by Moscow. Common misconception. And used skillfully by the Ukrainians at the time to get leverage. That security agreement isn’t what you think. it changes the calculus if he continues to show aggression into other countries that do not have the same strategic red line that Ukraine has for him.

And if he does then we have a different calculus. But for now based on what he has said and done we do not get involved. And we try to extinguish the flames and passions of war.

Comparing hitler to Putin shows how lacking your knowledge on the situation is. 2022 Russia is not 1930s Germany. if you think Putin has ambitions to conquer all of Europe then we simply cannot have a debate. and yes, we do not want to start a war over Ukraine. No one cared about Ukrainian until a few weeks ago, and suddenly everyone is foaming at the mouth to take on the Russian bear. Your emotions are being manipulated to enter a colossal strategic mistake.

Great arguments! we should definitely follow you into WW3! America!

Agree some “experts” have fucked up the world. The academics I’ve quoted have been warning how to not escalate this tragic situation we find ourselves in. They have not been the ones fucking it up. your second thought illustrates why our foreign policy as been a dumpster fire.

Not a relevant historical comparison

Can you elaborate how this is “bull shit”? im curious how that can be the case when Putin has called NATO expansion eastward to his border “unacceptable” how in the world is that bullshit? He is fucking telling you plain as day.

I’m not saying it. I’m quoting leading US foreign policy statesmen who have been saying it. Reference the twitter thread I posted for names and quotes. we ignored the warning signs and now act shocked that Putin is acting this way.

That is YOUR OPINION. do you think Putin shares your western opinion? “NATO has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. NATO expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?” - Putin 2007

Lol does he have thousands of nuclear weapons? ☢️ Did you read the twitter thread I posted that had the US’s leading foreign policy thinkers warning us for decades that we were poking the bear? (Pun intended) provoking nuclear armed states is not in the best interest of US foreign policy.

No

CIA director Bill Burns in 2008: "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for [Russia]" and "I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests"

I feel like I’m banging my head against the wall. YOU think Ukraine isn’t out to invade Russia. putin/Russia see it different. They see encroachment/encirclement by NATO/western countries. What we see as good (spreading liberal democracy/freedom) is seen as a core national security threat by Russia. Especially when it’s a country they’ve historically had influence over. ESPECIALLY when NATO holds military exercises with Ukraine on Ukrainian territory. “but NATO is defensive ONLY!” Again, that’s how YOU see NATO.

"ahhhhhhh roggggggaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh follow the greens" [sexy female Japanese accent]

multiple things can be right at the same time. the problem is our world is so polarized the nuance is gone. and that's dangerous. hell a sitting US senator just called for the assassination of a world leader.

take notes all those applying "farmboy" political science...FLEA is giving a master class. Prozac i agree with some of what you wrote, but i dont see this as capitulating to putin. I see this as concluding that Ukraine is not worth american troops dying for. and the hitler/putin comparison is totally ridiculous.

he was certainly right and we should have.

THIS. 100% spot on assessment.