FDNYOldGuy

@Guardian hit a lot of the positive points of following your heart, but I'm just putting a little different spin on it. BLUF: Shitz hard. Doubly if you're in a relationship dragging someone else along who is established where you currently are. Kids can push it into used diaper full of Indian food level of chaos, if you throw that in the mix. Thousands have done it and continue to do it, so it's 100% not prohibitive; just my experience. I'm still 100% glad I did it and would do it again, but it was harder on my better half than we both thought it would be going into it. Even for Guard/Reserve. First off, you'll PCS to your UPT base in the middle of BFE. Sure, your sig other can come with, but they're not exactly in garden spots of professional employment opportunity and social stimulation, so hopefully he/she/they can work remotely and don't mind being in personal/professional Antartica. If they stay back while you're at UPT, cue up the concerns of time apart/relationship stagnation or degradation/new wrestling partner potential. Could be totally fine, of course, but that's personal to each individual and relationship. Training pipeline, especially pointies, is going to take a lot of your time (studying, chair flying, practice sims, planning, eventually missions, etc.). You might be living in the same place as your spouse, but thinking you're gonna have a lot of time to spend fostering a relationship with a he/she stuck in the middle of nowhere/alone might be a bit of a pipe dream. Again, YMMV and you may have 8lb 6oz newborn baby Jesus' brain and believe that fundamentals are the crutch of the talentless, but that's not the case I saw from most folks I was in training with. I wrote a lot more because I'm verbose, but I deleted a bunch for brevity's sake and to not seem overly negative. In the end, it all depends on the individuals and you will likely be just fine. But, just trying to give a little caution that even going for the G/R route, you aren't out of the woods and free of big asks of your significant other/big hurdles that are outside of agreeing you get to go fly fun airplanes.

Thank you for the help and advice, as always, @brabus @Desk Jobs Suck, I just looked back through my UPT orders/mods and I don’t see anything about them being “Voluntary” written anywhere. I’d guess they won’t be too crazy about picking up on that piece, but it’ll totally depend on your employer. If they go for it, it’s ~2-2.5 years worth of training/differential pay, so it’s definitely a huge help if you can make it happen.

I actually just looked at my seasoning orders and saw that they did NOT have the USERRA 5-year limit exempt verbiage that my OTS/SERE/UPT/FTU orders had. I thought because it was still a "School" order and still part of the training pipeline that it would be, but perhaps not. It could be a box just not checked when the orders were written, but I'm not sure. YMMV. EDIT: Read through the SAF MR posted by Brabus and, from the way I read it, seasoning should be exempt, but my brain is a bit mushy currently.

Right in the middle of heading back to my civilian job now. I always planned on going back, so maybe a little different than your situation, but you can always look at it as...what if you need that job for some reason? Who knows what the world situation will be when you pop out at the end of the pipeline? Your unit may not have orders to keep you going as long as you plan; the airlines might not be hiring; you might find yourself without a viable option for a another civilian job; or (not trying to put the evil on you, Ricky Bobby, but gotta give a legit look at everything) you might just not make it through UPT, so you might need to go back to the civilian world. Hell, even if all goes well, there can be some serious breaks in the ANG pilot training pipeline, from my understanding, and it can vary by unit whether they keep you paid/insured and on orders during them. You might find yourself waiting for a few months between OTS and UPT or UPT and PIQ to where you might need to have a civilian gig to keep a roof over your head and yourself fed. So, why leave your USERRA protected job in the dust when there’s at least a (hopefully small) chance you’ll have to go back to it? The fact they pay you Mil leave is a nice positive kicker, but I’d honestly hang onto the gig more so because the world is uncertain and, whether you love your job or not, it is one you can have legally held for you while you journey through the pipeline.

Nope, not at all. It’s a regressive tax on poor folks that’ll push more poverty because they’re paying higher taxes (similar to VAT) on necessities to them. I’m actually more of a fan of the tax rate schedule under Eisenhower when we invested heavily in infrastructure/science/space exploration/defense/etc. over the continued hopes of trickle-down. But, I’m a dirty lefty that thinks corporations and ultra wealthy can afford to pay more in taxes/have their tax loopholes closed/bring their stashed cash back to the US. I think they’ll survive.

I like this video (and channel) for some pretty decent explanations on economic stuff. Might not agree with all of it, but it doesn’t mean there aren’t lots of good points/it isn’t well thought out. Is Hyperinflation Coming? As for whether the gubmit will be able to pay your pension, or it’s bills, is mainly touched on by the video and posters above: we print a valuable, world-useful, and respected currency, so as long as those things keep happening, we can kinda print whatever we want. Also helps that, while our numbers seem crazy, the whole world is doing the same thing (well, at least in relation to Covid and the Great Recession) trying to prime their economic pumps. Weimar Republic was bad because there were other stable(ish) investments to park your money like the US and UK in the 20’s. Currently, there’s not really any other major economy that’s “just fine.” Everyone sucks, so everyone’s printing, so there’s not a huge cause for alarm. So what, though? They also have more money AFTER taxes than the bottom 90% due to wealth concentration. Using just a sheer numeric value is disingenuous because, yes, they may be paying a greater NUMBER, tax-wise, but I’m certain, dollars to donuts, they’re paying a much smaller % OF THEIR INCOME in taxes than those in the bottom 90% due to multitudes of tax loopholes and dodges; especially when you start getting closer to that top 1%.

Sign the paperwork to get the ball rolling, just in case you decide to take it in a year from now (~6 of PIQ + 140 of seasoning + any leave you’ve built up/are able to take). There’s no commitment to TDART; time owed or for you to take the job, so why not just get your ducks in a row to have the option when you pop out at the end of your Prog Tour in case you need it? If the airlines aren’t hiring what they think they will or something else happens to diddle your current plan, it’s a guaranteed, better-than-CFI/regional pay job option to get paid to fly airplanes and further a career. It’s actually GS-9 pay below 300 hours (pretty huge pay cut from AD orders/BAH/BAS), but you should be able to make 300+ hours in that 140 days to make GS-11 pay when you start. ”Getting orders” is a floatable thing between MWSesesessss, so I can’t speak for your particular situation. Some deploy and you get solid 2-4 months of orders; others don’t deploy but get TACC missions that you get “long tour” orders (usually >30 days) to pick up trips that AD can’t because AD is too busy. But, I will say talking to a few friends in different MWS (both AD and Res), a lot of flying seems to be drying/hard to come by up due to a reduction in missions and an over abundance of Johnny LTs/folks needing currency or upgrades running around trying to get touches. TDART might be the best way to “guarantee” getting paid decently/getting hours. It’s not glamorous, but sitting in sims and on locals in CIV pay status costs the unit nothing and doesn’t come out of your limited number of Reserve pay periods, so my understanding is that you can rack up hours “easier” without the potential funding issues that you might face as a TR. All that pro-TDART talk to finish that I’m in a similar boat to you. It’s a definitely not-great option for me with my civilian gig and I’m very likely not taking it. That said, I’ve done every step to keep it an option, should I find that it becomes a better deal for my family/flying than trying to juggle max-performing TR flying/what orders I can scrounge and my civilian gig obligations. I think we can have up to a year from end of Prog Tour to actually accept it and start the job and the 4 year clock (time that it lasts; not that you owe for taking it). YMMV, but might as well go through the wickets to keep the option open for you. Only cost is a few extra PITA hours of USAJobs and records wrangling.

Can’t speak to the fighters, because I’m a fattyboi and pretty damn stoked about it. Flying is fun The first thing is to decide whether it’s more important for you to fly pointies, or fly/serve at all. I get the fighter love; most people want that when they’re growing up and heavies certainly don’t have as much glitz and glamour. That said, having seen behind the curtain in my brief time in, there are a LOT of other airframe considerations (lifestyle, flexibility, $$$$, deployments, travel locations, training, currencies, etc.) that are pertinent once you start looking at the forest through the trees. Only you can decide what’s right, but what I’m getting at is there’s more than just whether you sit in a pointies or heavies seat, so be sure to do your research. A big caveat you should think of or look into about your soul crushing defense contractor job: a good portion of them will pay your salary while you’re away in your training pipeline. That’s a nice bump to your 2LT pittance salary while you’re in the pipeline. Not saying be shady d-bag and take the money when you’re 100% never going back, but you also don’t know what the economy will be by the time you’re spit out at the end of the pipeline. COVID Part II: Electric Bugaloo could have the airlines looking like they have for the last year and you could find yourself without many prospects. So, keeping your foot on the bag at your current job while you’re in the pipeline might not be the worst idea. Especially when you’re getting paid to do so. Either way, as said by others, only you can decide. But, good luck with whatever you choose! It’s an awesome ride!

Gone, but not forgotten 🥃

Here’s a quick and easy source document, in case you haven’t seen it. Could have been matching (if you switched to BRS), deployment, or if you’re over 50 (or TSP thinks you are), that allowed you to go above $19.5k. Also could have been a mistake in there, but it usually is a pretty solid system at stopping over contributing. But, there’s also a Request for Refund form referenced in that link above. Big catch is that, if you’re talking about 2020, the deadline is 15 March for them to receive the form to avoid a tax SNAFU.

I had no idea that was a previous thing in the past. Was it not utilized enough to merit the expense or something? Even if T6s would run too much money, something like @Stitch said with the T53 or, hell, a discount/hours allotment to the (albeit few remaining) Aero Club(s) would be a step. I just figured the T6 adds speed, aero capes, and standardization of mx/parts/procedures because it's what pilots have trained on for 15+ years. Taking it a step further, I'm honestly surprised they don't cram a bunch of Nav in at IFT (get something IFR certed) or with some other bug smasher IFR capable trainer at UPT. Setting up for an instrument approach, briefing, running DLIDS/OLDRODO/WDRWHOS/RSTLNE/Whatevermnemonicisused is pretty much the same in any aircraft; the speed it comes at you and the equipment used are the big differences and vary (sometimes maddeningly) between MWS. Save bucks in a 4-banger at 10GPH nailing the basics over any of the other UPT iron fuel-burn options and top off down the line in current UPT jets to add speed helmet fire/MWS similarities. Then again, who the hell am I and what do I know?

How awesome it would be if Wings/Squadrons were allocated a couplefew T6s that pilots could sortie out for stick and rudder flying? Sure, it really wouldn't do anything for currencies in most MWS, but it would give pilots a cheaper opportunity to keep up on those flying basics over trying to wrangle a .69 of flying time with a handful of other pilots vying for the same on locals (well, in heavies, anyway). They already have 38s doing that for a couple airframes; why not expand it to more MWS? Make it optional, so it's not something that feels like a burden to those that don't care to fly outside of their jet, and allow pilots to just enjoy flying. I am sure there would be some logistics headaches and issues, but a T6 seems like a still high performance but cheaper way to get altitude under ass time than 1-8 jet engines burning way more lb/hr.

Pretty much what @Kiloalpha said. This is where things get a little sticky, from what I’ve been told. You can get a Reserves recruiter to schedule you for MEPS, BUT that then means the Reserves own your file. If you go to a Guard unit, there’s paperwork that has to be run through the wickets to get your already completed MEPS packet released to the Guard. Again, not 100% sure about this, but it’s what I was told when I was looking at both. As for FC1, it sounds as though it’s nearly impossible to get one before getting hired now. It wasn’t impossible in the past, but, as Bob Dylan said, “times they are a changin.” The hiring slowdown, COVID, and limited scheduling have shifted things drastically.

Haha. Well, hope my ramblings were of some help. Your scores are awesome (far better than mine were), you’ve got a solid background (pilots love talking finance...seriously), and you seem like you’ve got a great attitude. You’re also only a year past the age cutoff (maybe 2, by the time you start UPT), so it’s not a crazy amount of time. Your biggest hurdles are, as @Metalhead731 said, timing, competition, and COVID. I lucked out and hit a window where they really needed pilots and fewer were applying. But, now that’s changed and, unfortunately, units (and Reserves/Guard UPT boards) have gotten extremely picky. But, as was said, if you put your effort into it, there’s always a chance. Bottom line is that no one wants a “problem” without a solution. Not that you personally are one, but hiring someone older presents extra work and questions. So, it’s your job to try to get ahead of things and provide as much help with or solutions to those problems to ease the reluctance. Make sure you’ve got a solid packet put together and really sell your age as a pro over a potential con. Try to get ahead on any paperwork needed. See if you can knock out MEPS or an FC1 (extremely hard, these days, but you never know). Network and talk to as many people as you can. You never know who might help along the way. Little is impossible with hard work. I don’t mean to sound like a coach, but it’s true. You can hustle and make it an easy choice for the roadblocks and bumps you might encounter by trying to smooth the road as much as possible. Good luck! It’s certainly not an impossible, or easy, journey, but it’s really an amazing one. Still can’t believe I get to do it, honestly.

Going off of memory from 2.5 years ago, but: -Reserve Board (been very tough this year, it seems, so expect delays) -Swear in (this is your military career “start date,” even if you don’t begin getting paid/drilling until later) -Gained by 340 FTG (you should not be gained by, or drilling with, your sponsoring unit as a Reservist, which is different than Guard) -Get your paperwork squared with them. They’ll get you signed up with the OTS people and the OTS folks will email you CBTs (computer based training) to do before OTS. -About 2-4 weeks before your OTS dates, they will fly you to Randolph for a week of Inprocessing to get you spun up for OTS (signed up for things, Mil email, CAC, etc). This is when you’ll get your OTS/SERE/UPT dates and training base. You’ll be paid for the week and they’ll pay for you to fly down. It’s in civvy clothes for non prior service; priors will wear uniforms and chaperone non-priors. -OTS start and pipeline begin. OTS is always first, but SERE could be before or after UPT, depending on scheduling. They probably won’t give PIQ dates at this time, due to always changing UPT schedules. You’ll be on orders/getting paid solidly with no breaks in orders or pay for 2+ years from that point. Think that’s what the order was, IIRC. YMMV.

Because there’s nothing a federal politician can do for his electorate? You start battling for disaster relief bills to help pick your constituents back up. You figure out why the help didn’t arrive quicker or more effectively. You think of how you can help through economic relief. You at least try to be smart enough to not be a giant hypocrite at doing what you spent a lot of time calling out other politicians for doing. Yeah, maybe it’s symbolic, but it’s a douchebag move for a political voted to represent the people and be their leader to bounce the hell out or not follow the same rules they espouse. Same goes for Austin Mayors, California Governors, Texas Senators, any elected official on any shade of the political spectrum. You’re a leader; lead or at least act like you GAF when the people who asked you to lead need help.

Reserves on AD orders, so not sure if it’ll be exactly the same, but I got the 1st Pfizer shot last night. Local Public Health was offering up extras and it was a “can you be here in 30?” call. My wife got her shot (healthcare worker, as well) and heard them saying they had extra doses, so she gave my number. I tried to get it at the base clinic the same day and they had extras, but got told by the AD folks I needed a higher-up-the-chain-than-worth-it auth to get it because I’m Reserves. I’m on long term AD orders, downrange two weeks ago with issues due to potential crew exposures/sickness and looking like I might be headed out again this coming week, so I didn’t think it was crazy to inquire. But, I guess it’s a bigger hurdle for me to get an available dose than for them to give the extras to the retirees. Reserves only offer it during UTAs and those filled rapidly, so gist I’ve heard is to get it on the outside, if possible. I haven’t run it through the wickets yet, so no info on whether there’s any pushback. There’s no cost involved, so Tricare should be a non issue and it didn’t sound like there was going to be one from flight med outside the 48 hour DNIF. Then again, I haven’t handed them the card yet because shit weather and I’m not flying in that window, so maybe the pee pee smack is coming... Zero side effects from it, besides a little soreness in the arm. Less than Tetanus or Typhoid, so not really even worth mentioning. Second shot is fragged ~3 weeks out and supposedly public health just calls for scheduling it. 11/10, would recommend over a few of the ass kickings I’ve heard from perfectly healthy folks that were unfortunate enough to not have the Diet COVIDs.

One can dream. But, that’s not how re-election campaigns get paid for, so I doubt there are many politicians willing to bite the hands that feed them. Until we get big money out of politics and stop the revolving door between industry and government, this is a pipe dream. Then again, anything would be better than the absolute f-all accountability we have currently, so maybe this royal screw up could spur something? I’ll hold my breath. Ted Cruz should be back from his vacation to Mexico soon...

This article seems to say it’s far from being solely based on frozen wind turbines. Sounds like base load, solar/wind, and the grid itself are all failing massively. Perhaps it’s a little of the old Enron runaround with companies diddling with the grid to garner profits. They used to cut power to CA just to juice rates and, well, that was like 20 years ago...everyone probably forgot about that by now. I mean, who would think Wall St. would do people wrong? Funds bought U.S. crude ahead of big freeze - John Kemp

I’m for SOME sort of national service out of high school. Make part of the deal for free college/trade/tech school require that one must spend 2-3 years in government service. It could be military, Peace Corps, a rebooted CCC that works on projects here at home, working in soup kitchens, whatever. Just something that would give kids right out of high school some direction, pay, life experience, a purpose, and help build some greater national bond, sense of the greater good, and a feeling of ownership in this country of ours. Don’t want to go kinetic or support war; go work restoring national parks, cleaning up beaches, or help rebuild infrastructure. *(as @Royal said, if you’re in power and vote to go to war, your vote only counts if you had military service and/or your children are involved). Go help build schools in poor countries or work on human rights abroad. There are ways to serve the country that aren’t the military, so there should be acceptable options for people of all creeds. All options should be structured similarly to enlisting in the military right out of high school, too: you get all your basic needs met and a few extra bucks in your pocket, but the focus is on service, camaraderie, and maybe getting a bit outside of a comfort zone while interacting with people of different backgrounds. Would having a large government jobs program like this work perfectly? Probably not. But, it’s something that could really benefit the greater country and bring us closer together working toward common goals. As for the arguments of being against the American way by “forcing” service, I see that point. But, on the flip side, I think that very American ethos is taken for granted by a lot of people. Just like kids born into wealth a couple generations down get affluenza and have no respect for the hard work it took to earn, a lot of people don’t understand the work it took to get America to this point and what it takes to keep it here.

This is a big one. It might vary by specific company, but you won’t get cheap(est) rates if you’ve had a close family member die younger than 60. As other said, this is a one time thing before you get actual policy rates to ensure you’re not on your way out imminently. Also, the nurse is not your friend, so anything you say can and will be used against you in the rate department.

100% agree. It’s why I laugh when people say we have a capitalist system. We don’t. If you have the money to pay for play, you can diddle the system to work for you. Privatize the gains and socialize the losses. That said, and it’s probably deeper than anyone wants to get here, but it’s never cut and dry. I’m a huge believer in reaping what you sow, but letting banks die in 08 was a double edged sword. The culprits of the collapse already had the ill-gotten gains in their pockets and the average folks out there relying on banking would have actually been the ones to suffer if they failed. The FDIC didn’t have the funds to insure the number of banks that failed, the credit freeze would have decimated non-bank players, and the system would have collapsed. Did it mostly just bail out the rich and powerful. Yup. Should they have paid with jail time and fines? Yes, they should have. But, the wealthy only go to jail if they over other wealthy people. Madoff robbed powerful people and went to jail; Dick Fuld/Angelo Mozillo/etc. just played vital parts in screwing millions of average folks out of their homes/jobs/savings...of course they got off with golden parachutes. In the words of Carlin, “It’s a big club and you ain’t in it.” As for the current market diddling, sure, some hedge funds are losing money. But, a lot of it’s not THEIR money; it’s investors’ money. Sure, most are wealthy and can afford it, but I know my FDNY pension has hedge funds in its portfolio. They’ve had to go to alternative investments with interest rates in the shitter for nearly two decades. So, the victory is pyrrhic, in some sense. There are average people gonna suffer because of the manipulation and a game. Hopefully it brings about change in the system, because the big boys manipulate the market at will; always have and likely always will. But, I’m afraid the best antidote for this is the dreaded “Regulation” word.

Makes me think of Chapelle’s bit about why the hell people care what celebrities think. “Somebody get Ja Rule on the phone so he can make sense of all this!” But, in reality, seeing the sheer number of people talking about this makes me think more of one of my favorite books: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, by Charles Mackay. It’s a nearly 200 year old book that talks about Tulip Mania, the South Seas Company, and the Mississippi Company and how average folks get swept up in get rich quick/can’t lose investments, as well as the aftermaths. Because the book was written in the 1840s, it doesn’t include the 1920s, the dot com, the housing bubble, and whatever we’re gonna call this next one, but it sure as hell seems to rhyme. It’s a good and quick read, for those that are interested. There’s a famous (if possibly made up) story of Joe Kennedy getting stock tips from the shoe shine boy on his way to work in 1929 and knowing the markets were toast. But, it does kinda hold true. When people you’d never consider talking about investments with are proffering investment advice, shit might be getting outta hand. Gamestop/AMC/Blackberry business models, financial pictures, and/or operating environments didn’t drastically change in the last month, so the absolutely astounding increases aren’t based on anything fundamental. Doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy the ride or make money, but it’s not much more than going to Vegas and gambling. There will be losers. Just be careful out there. Caveat emptor.

So, to me, this is two of us looking at the same problem and seeing different causes/solutions. Even more so, it's like a balloon; when you squeeze one point, it causes problems in another. Sure, illegal immigration allows for cheaper labor and, potentially, the situation could be changed if you stopped illegal labor (although, honestly, I don't think that's truly possible, but for the sake of argument...), so you see the illegals as the issue. I see this as a more inherent flaw of free market/unfettered capitalism. Those high school kids/local folks value their work at a higher rate than the market is paying, so they won't take the jobs for what they're willing to pay. More so, you have BUSINESS OWNERS that are choosing to hire that lower labor (because it means higher profits to them because they don't pay taxes/benefits/vacation/etc.), as well as END CONSUMERS that are voting with their wallets to only pay for that lower labor because it costs less, so it's the free market working as it's "intended." If the high schooler's/craftsman's skills were that badly needed, they'd be the go-to. The illegals that come here and work off the books, longer hours for lower wages without any labor protections, are willing to work "harder" than the high school kids and locals, and are being rewarded for it by consumer dollars paying them over higher priced options. The situation could be fixed by cutting immigration, or it could be fixed by requiring business owners stricter adherence to labor laws, paying higher wages, and by the end consumers voting with their wallets to pay for "All American" legal labor. Again, like above, we see the same problem but have different opinions on how to fix it. I think this is a more a problem with our healthcare system than with a sick or injured person being at fault because they need medical care. ERs MUST, by law, see every patient that comes in. If an illegal doesn't have an SSN, then they can't be traced to pay the bill. But, if universal healthcare was a thing, then chances are a lot of those ER visits would be doctor's office visits and not be such a costly burden on the system. Obviously, there are more pieces to this argument, but I'll keep it short for brevity's sake. Same for my ancestors. While I'm certain instances like the pregnant lady coming over just to have the anchor baby do happen and there are folks working the system, I think a lot of it is also the "boogeyman" narrative that is played hard by anti-immigration folks. A lion's share of the immigrants are exactly what you (and most of us) hope to have: Law abiding people that want to come here to work hard, be an integral part of society, and be a part of the American Dream to give their kids a better life than they've had. Are there some that ruin that picture? Hell yeah. But, that's human nature and any group of people (immigrants, men, women, right, left, up, down, and even the damn Air Force) are no different. Do we all know pilots/coworkers/leaders/men/women/whatever that shouldn't be flying/are terrible leaders/are terrible people/etc. and give the rest of us a bad name? I've been in the AF for a cup of coffee in time, but I can say I see that. Just as I see it in the FD. It's life. I just hate to shut the door to everyone because there are some people that are going to take advantage. We don't get to choose who we pop out of and where, so not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in the status of life/country/situation that they wish to live in. A vast majority of immigrants I've run into in my life, legal or not, just want to have a better life for their children and will do what they can to make that happen. As a parent, I can't blame them. Agreed. We might not fully agree in the details or the exact way to go about it, but at least we're discussing it like civil adults. We need some more of that in this country right now.

Our great great grandpas Giuseppe/Seamus/John/Klaus/Vladimir/whatever stumbled off a boat and got citizenship as long as they had a pulse prior to the Immigration Act of 1924. After that point, we set strict (and pretty arbitrary) immigration quotas from countries based on allowing 2% annually of whatever that particular immigrant population was in the country as of the 1890 census. And since then, illegal immigration has been an “issue” because we cut annual numbers of allowable legal immigration. We need immigration. Our citizen population isn’t pumping out enough kids to be able to support an aging society, crumbling infrastructure, and ballooning costs/debt. We need more people to fill houses, pay taxes, and consume goods, or we risk a collapsed real estate market, much higher tax rates, and greatly diminished services. Most immigrants aren’t doing jobs Americans want to do (landscaping/meat processing/cleaning/cooking/agriculture/etc.) or doing them for the low wages employers are willing to pay/the market supports. Anyone could probably have an all-legal roofing crew for 30-50% more cost; most will vote with their wallets and pay the cheaper rate with migrant labor. Most don’t think twice about inexpensive produce and would balk at paying what market price would be with legal labor. Most decry the loss of American manufacturing, yet have no problem buying that 69” TV from Walmart for $500 that could never be made and sold in the US for that amount. We need immigration. We need cheap labor. We need an easier path to legal citizenship. The fears today of immigrants stealing our jobs, changing our way of life, or diluting “American values” is no different than it was during any other time in civilization. The rhetoric in Gangs of New York rhymes a lot with today; we’ve just changed the ethnicity of folks we don’t want in the country. Had the Nativists been successful 150+ years ago, I’d gather a lot of us wouldn’t be in the country today.