hockeydork

Got it. My inclination initially was that the Ukrainians would maybe have somewhat of an interesting advantage if Russia did control the skies ENTIRELY, because than they could basically shoot at anything and everything with ground based systems, and know that if it was in the air, it is most definitely hostile. Would be interesting to know how many aircraft being shot down are from land based systems/success rates of the Stinger. Helo squadron shows up to protect advancing armour, Ukrainian's pop off a couple stingers, helicopters scatter/leave/some get hit, than the Javelins/NLAWs come out and the 3 million dollar tanks get crippled by a Ukranian school teacher with a 100k missile on their shoulder. Awesome. IMO, Putin has dug himself into a very deep hole. He wants Ukraine, but he's grossly miscalculated how much they don't want him. He was banking on the intimidation factor, which has back fired now that he is losing valuable assets bogged down by cheap & easy to use missiles. He can't leave without looking like a failure, even tho he already looks like one, and if he stays he'll keep bleeding money/troops/valuable tanks/helos so long as Javelins and NLAWS are flowing, and thank god I don't see us stopping that supply. He could take the territory by leveling it, but if he levels it, than getting it doesn't mean much, does it? I don't see this ending well for him, this ego boosting operation is a total backfire. Also, he really sucks at hockey. I thought I was bad....... P.S. - If any Russian pilots read these forums, it ain't worth it...

Question. At what point do the military higher ups say F this, and override his desires? Like an... I'm gunna take my entire fighter squadron I am commanding and tell them to defect to Romania. Is there a possibility of that at all? Or are they convinced to the core that what they are doing is the "right" side of history. I have seen articles that a lot of Russian units didn't even know they were going in. Thought they were just "drilling".....

I don't always agree with you, but damn. That is one solid post.

Leave it to those tards of re to destroy an important piece of their own heritage. Sick strike bro. Par for the Russian course

I think you are over thinking it man. He isn't one step ahead of us, he can just make decisions swiftly, good or bad, while we run around like dopes under reacting. If the Russians beat the Ukrainians, someone else will end up fighting them, maybe in 5 years, maybe in 15. How different would this all look had this not happened: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-torpedoed-sale-of-iron-dome-to-ukraine-fearing-russian-reaction-report/

Rest in peace, ing heros.

Or maybe I can just look three moves ahead and understand that the short term gains from Trump weren't worth his long term side effects, especially since I was in favor of a decent number of his policies. Happy to discuss this in another thread if you wanna start one, "Trump vs Biden Ukraine" or something. Agree we should hash this out somewhere else, keep this thread on topic about the current situation in Ukraine, not everybody's personal opinions about how the world would be in an alternate world with such and so in office.

Almost nailed it. Trump was a clown, but he was a clown who understood power and narcissism, and he also was a narcissist who liked power. which is why people like me would rather the dunce at the helm...easier to kick out when they screw up.

Something just got blown out of the sky: see below link previously given. https://twitter.com/ELINTNews

Well after the past two days, yea lol.

Legit question, why would they not have flown it out of there? They really just thought this was all a bluff I guess? It's just a hunk of metal, but hope she makes it unscathed.

Mellow or not, almost everyone in here says they don't want us getting directly involved. What else is he gunna do? Seems to me like we're doing the best we can, just need Europe to not go soft. Also they need more weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/02/24/we-need-as-much-stinger-and-anti-tank-weapons-as-possible-says-ukraines-defense-minister/

Consensus in this thread does seem to be to let Russia shoot themselves in the foot on this one and just crush them economically. And yea screw the rest of Europe if they don't care enough to stop resisit and stop buying fuel from them. But I cannot say screw the Ukrainian 18 year old fighting for his country, and on the right side of history. We need to keep the javelins and stingers flowing...

Fair enough

I think understanding him means you understand that there was no negotiating with him. This is about his empire, his territory, his power. He will take what he can, and will lie about his justification. He saw an opportunity to grab Boardwalk and Park Place by force, morality be damned.

Valid. And assuming you are referencing Aegis ashore? Again, its defensive. If we had mobile land based nukes in Romania, his math would check but it doesn't. He's being a douche.

I get your point, but the world can't march to the beat of one man's archaic view. Also we didn't threaten to put nukes in Ukraine, as far as I know. If we did, then I would expect this sort of incursion.

Can I ask why Russia feels a Ukraine on its border is a violation of border security? Are we actually floating the idea that Ukraine would invade Russia, or that Russia would somehow be attacked by NATO? By negotiating with them, you are acknowledging, and even worse, VALIDATING their crackpot theory that NATO wants to invade them. You say foolish of us, I say foolish of them. It is foolish of them to go restart an empire game on planet earth. How many Americans wake up everyday and say man, I'd really like to go kill some Russians and take their shit/land right now? ...probably not many. Putin can't allow the spread of democracy/"more like democracy" to his border because he is an autocrat, and those people never stop wanting more. They are takers, not givers. He isn't concerned about Russian security, he is concerned about the security of his own power. Just like Napoleon and Hitler. His buffer state isn't for the Russian people, it's for HIM. He is cut from the same cloth as every tyrant in history. What is your definition of evil? He fits mine. IMO, today was way more of a threat to the American way of life than ISIS ever was. That is coming from someone born and raised about 45 minutes north of NYC. Today is a scarier day for the world than the day some nutjobs flew planes into buildings. Not saying we should have run to the rescue. Maybe this will be a good wake up call to Europe. But I will say a Ukrainian soldier fighting for democracy is much more of an American than half the people I walk past at Walmart.

New era if you ask me. This is the final act that proves West and East will never be amicable. We had better start realizing that, working hard, and strengthening our own resolve, or we will fall like many strong others have before us. Horrifying.

I doubt US Troops will be put in Ukraine, right move or not, it just won't happen with the current American appetite. Economic warfare, leveraging US production capabilities, is our best bet to make this a historical mistake for Russia. Isn't Siemens a leader in wind turbines? Tell the Germans to go ramp turbine production as if they were at war to offset the loss in Russian gas. Than tell them to cut that pipeline in half, and if they dont, we'll bomb it.

Refuse to click on the link because of that moron. Also, I haven't heard anybody on any other network advocate for the American military to go to war in Ukraine thus far, maybe I missed something, or maybe its 2022 and they're still pumping as much sensationalized crap out as they can.

Unfortunately Putin is banking on that kind of thinking. I agree with not intervening directly as well, but the US is in a viscous circle of short term thinking. The idea of not wanting to punish the Russian regime for this economically just because we will all feel some pain in our wallets and may have to wait an extra year before we buy that new car, reflects our weak resolve as a nation, and that we really have lost what being American is really about. It isn't about baseball, F150s and BBQs. What would the WW2 generation say about total inaction? I think they'd be disappointed and ashamed. A generation of people, a lot of which whose lives were ruined in the defense of the free world, and this is how we act? By saying who cares/not my problem? I think there is a large argument to be made that this is a tipping point. If NATO has been expanding eastward, well than that is it's destiny. Why should we let him reverse that course potentiality without paying a hefty consequence? Agree. To bad we failed them when they asked for help. No modern air defenses from US, and Israel wouldn't sell them theirs either. The Russians have them so outgunned, which was their plan all along. Agree Putin has been impressive. It is our job to make sure at the end he looks like a fumbling fool.

Concur. It is one thing to be a democracy, another to be both a democracy AND a super power with a powerful military and economy. Saying Europe should step into our shoes just isn't really a feasible option. To many different cultures, languages and tribal-ness all swirling around jam packed next to each other. To think they'd be able to collectively lead as we have I don't think is an option. That however does not free them from contributing their fair part and at least backing us up. Also the assumption that progress just happens, and would have happened without the US (ie somebody pushing it) is false. Dark ages anybody? Letting Ukraine slip without any resistance will be penny wise pound foolish. Putin is smart to capitalize on Americas aversion to conflict currently. The Ukranians are willing to fight for themselves it seems, they just need the hardware so they don't show up to a gun fight with a baseball bat. The amount of money well justify spending on our own weapons to counter "an expanding Russia" will far outweigh what we need to spend now to keep the border where it is. Why stop at Ukraine, lets say he gets all of it. Once it's part of Russia why not keep pushing West again in 5 years?

That all makes sense. Like anybody else Putin cannot escape the clock, his time will end eventually. The question is once he's gone, will a clone just replace him? Or will the Russian people want to evolve into the modern way of doing things? Why should Ukrainians be subjected to another 100 years of Russia's fake democracy way of doing things just because Russia has a Nuke button. Plenty of other people have the Nuke button, they know that is a card they themselves don't want to play. I am not advocating for antagonizing him, or to put our forces on his border with Ukraine. Just advocating for a very strong defensive Ukrainian response to any incursion into their territory. I think they have a right to defend their airspace as well. If Putin wants regional influence he should try doing it through amicable means. Its amazing how many kids will want to play with you at the playground if you stop throwing rocks at them.

We wasted time on diplomatic solutions that were never gunna happen. He already took part of the country a few years ago, how can anybody not see that he ain't leaving without more of it? What people fail to understand, is that there is no reasoning/logic when it comes to dealing with individuals who mentally have departed orbit and are hell bent on their own narcissistic self-fulfillment. War IS bad and should ALWAYS be avoided, but as civilized as humanity may become, underneath it we're all still animals. And every once in awhile you get an animal with killer predator instincts (Putin) who ends up in charge of a metric f*ck ton of tanks, artillery and surface to air missiles, and who wants to go bully the shit out of a little democracy and crush it because it feels good. Ukraine should have been flooded with defensive weapons, instead he's got Europe by the balls with his natural gas so they're to puss to do anything. And we sent 200 million of weapons, when it should have been 2 billion. It's like trying to reason with the serial killer as he tapes your hands to put you in the trunk of a car. You don't reason, you bite his damn ear off first chance you get. I'm with you. I am an incredibly empathetic person, think war is terrible, but if this goes down I hope Russian casualties are high enough that maybe somebody turns on him/the Russian people say WTF. This is another free world vs non free world battle. Hard for me to have empathy for the other side when it comes to the principle that is being fought over.