hockeydork

I disagree on this idea that he is acting in the best interests of Russia. This is a dude who went from zero to billionaire, for doing what exactly? Nothing.This is critical when deciding what to do with Ukraine. There is a large difference between a man who is out for himself and a man who is out for his people. Putin is not out for the Russian people. Ukraine posed zero threat to the Russian people. ing zero. This isn't Russia acting in Russia's interests, because the Russian people can't act in their own interests because they've been oppressed for god knows how long being force fed state run TV. Obama didn't isolate Russia, the Russian autocracy isolated Russia to preserve its own chokehold over the people. This is in the dictator playbook. You say zero interest to save Ukraine. I disagree. Ukraine is a hunk of land far far away, but perceptions matter in this world. Now we have a civilized country fighting for its freedom. We spent so much effort trying to build Iraq and Afghanistan from scratch, and the idea that we shouldn't care about a near freedom getting toppled is no bueno. We care. We're just questioning our methods do to previous performance and the players involved, and we are tip toeing, which is good, rather than reaching for the sledge hammer instantly. I do NOT think we should set up a no fly zone due to the risk of WW3, but if the Ukrainian's want anti-air missiles, coming right up. In this situation, it matters not only that the Russians are beat, but WHO beats them. They NEED to be beaten by the UKRANIANS for this to work, so that this cannot be spun as "American f*cked around in Russia's interests". No, Russia f*cked around in Ukraine's interests, and paid dearly for it. People aren't clamoring for war, they are clamoring to stand up to bullies. Yes, it's real scary to think that an old dude (i.e. life almost over, willing to take more risks because he only gives a shit about himself) has a nuke button. But the Ukrainian people have the right to fight for their freedom. And we had better encourage it just as we have been doing. You cannot pick and chose when to be on the side of a free people just because of your strategic interests. The people have a right to govern themselves, always. Death on our feet over life on our knees, always. If Putin nukes something over Ukraine well than he had already lost his mind and so be it, it was a matter of time anyways than. Moscow will get wiped off the face of the earth, people will die, and the world will cycle on.

Putin won't use nukes if his brain is still on. If it's not, you can bet your ass the west will engage in WW3 the second a tactical nuke goes off. There is a lot of peaceful people....who won't be so peaceful once that bomb goes off. My parents and GF have been interesting to watch: non violent people who thought that war was something crazy people go chose, and now understand that sometimes it chooses you. I have zero ties to Ukraine. I've never rooted so hard for something in my life. And I watched the Rangers lose the 2014 Stanley cup (so I'll happily trade LA =p ). ...joking.

Got it. My inclination initially was that the Ukrainians would maybe have somewhat of an interesting advantage if Russia did control the skies ENTIRELY, because than they could basically shoot at anything and everything with ground based systems, and know that if it was in the air, it is most definitely hostile. Would be interesting to know how many aircraft being shot down are from land based systems/success rates of the Stinger. Helo squadron shows up to protect advancing armour, Ukrainian's pop off a couple stingers, helicopters scatter/leave/some get hit, than the Javelins/NLAWs come out and the 3 million dollar tanks get crippled by a Ukranian school teacher with a 100k missile on their shoulder. Awesome. IMO, Putin has dug himself into a very deep hole. He wants Ukraine, but he's grossly miscalculated how much they don't want him. He was banking on the intimidation factor, which has back fired now that he is losing valuable assets bogged down by cheap & easy to use missiles. He can't leave without looking like a failure, even tho he already looks like one, and if he stays he'll keep bleeding money/troops/valuable tanks/helos so long as Javelins and NLAWS are flowing, and thank god I don't see us stopping that supply. He could take the territory by leveling it, but if he levels it, than getting it doesn't mean much, does it? I don't see this ending well for him, this ego boosting operation is a total backfire. Also, he really sucks at hockey. I thought I was bad....... P.S. - If any Russian pilots read these forums, it ain't worth it...

Question. At what point do the military higher ups say F this, and override his desires? Like an... I'm gunna take my entire fighter squadron I am commanding and tell them to defect to Romania. Is there a possibility of that at all? Or are they convinced to the core that what they are doing is the "right" side of history. I have seen articles that a lot of Russian units didn't even know they were going in. Thought they were just "drilling".....

I don't always agree with you, but damn. That is one solid post.

Leave it to those tards of re to destroy an important piece of their own heritage. Sick strike bro. Par for the Russian course

I think you are over thinking it man. He isn't one step ahead of us, he can just make decisions swiftly, good or bad, while we run around like dopes under reacting. If the Russians beat the Ukrainians, someone else will end up fighting them, maybe in 5 years, maybe in 15. How different would this all look had this not happened: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-torpedoed-sale-of-iron-dome-to-ukraine-fearing-russian-reaction-report/

Rest in peace, ing heros.

Or maybe I can just look three moves ahead and understand that the short term gains from Trump weren't worth his long term side effects, especially since I was in favor of a decent number of his policies. Happy to discuss this in another thread if you wanna start one, "Trump vs Biden Ukraine" or something. Agree we should hash this out somewhere else, keep this thread on topic about the current situation in Ukraine, not everybody's personal opinions about how the world would be in an alternate world with such and so in office.

Almost nailed it. Trump was a clown, but he was a clown who understood power and narcissism, and he also was a narcissist who liked power. which is why people like me would rather the dunce at the helm...easier to kick out when they screw up.

Something just got blown out of the sky: see below link previously given. https://twitter.com/ELINTNews

Well after the past two days, yea lol.

Legit question, why would they not have flown it out of there? They really just thought this was all a bluff I guess? It's just a hunk of metal, but hope she makes it unscathed.

Mellow or not, almost everyone in here says they don't want us getting directly involved. What else is he gunna do? Seems to me like we're doing the best we can, just need Europe to not go soft. Also they need more weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/02/24/we-need-as-much-stinger-and-anti-tank-weapons-as-possible-says-ukraines-defense-minister/

Consensus in this thread does seem to be to let Russia shoot themselves in the foot on this one and just crush them economically. And yea screw the rest of Europe if they don't care enough to stop resisit and stop buying fuel from them. But I cannot say screw the Ukrainian 18 year old fighting for his country, and on the right side of history. We need to keep the javelins and stingers flowing...

Fair enough

I think understanding him means you understand that there was no negotiating with him. This is about his empire, his territory, his power. He will take what he can, and will lie about his justification. He saw an opportunity to grab Boardwalk and Park Place by force, morality be damned.

Valid. And assuming you are referencing Aegis ashore? Again, its defensive. If we had mobile land based nukes in Romania, his math would check but it doesn't. He's being a douche.

I get your point, but the world can't march to the beat of one man's archaic view. Also we didn't threaten to put nukes in Ukraine, as far as I know. If we did, then I would expect this sort of incursion.

Can I ask why Russia feels a Ukraine on its border is a violation of border security? Are we actually floating the idea that Ukraine would invade Russia, or that Russia would somehow be attacked by NATO? By negotiating with them, you are acknowledging, and even worse, VALIDATING their crackpot theory that NATO wants to invade them. You say foolish of us, I say foolish of them. It is foolish of them to go restart an empire game on planet earth. How many Americans wake up everyday and say man, I'd really like to go kill some Russians and take their shit/land right now? ...probably not many. Putin can't allow the spread of democracy/"more like democracy" to his border because he is an autocrat, and those people never stop wanting more. They are takers, not givers. He isn't concerned about Russian security, he is concerned about the security of his own power. Just like Napoleon and Hitler. His buffer state isn't for the Russian people, it's for HIM. He is cut from the same cloth as every tyrant in history. What is your definition of evil? He fits mine. IMO, today was way more of a threat to the American way of life than ISIS ever was. That is coming from someone born and raised about 45 minutes north of NYC. Today is a scarier day for the world than the day some nutjobs flew planes into buildings. Not saying we should have run to the rescue. Maybe this will be a good wake up call to Europe. But I will say a Ukrainian soldier fighting for democracy is much more of an American than half the people I walk past at Walmart.

New era if you ask me. This is the final act that proves West and East will never be amicable. We had better start realizing that, working hard, and strengthening our own resolve, or we will fall like many strong others have before us. Horrifying.

I doubt US Troops will be put in Ukraine, right move or not, it just won't happen with the current American appetite. Economic warfare, leveraging US production capabilities, is our best bet to make this a historical mistake for Russia. Isn't Siemens a leader in wind turbines? Tell the Germans to go ramp turbine production as if they were at war to offset the loss in Russian gas. Than tell them to cut that pipeline in half, and if they dont, we'll bomb it.

Refuse to click on the link because of that moron. Also, I haven't heard anybody on any other network advocate for the American military to go to war in Ukraine thus far, maybe I missed something, or maybe its 2022 and they're still pumping as much sensationalized crap out as they can.

Unfortunately Putin is banking on that kind of thinking. I agree with not intervening directly as well, but the US is in a viscous circle of short term thinking. The idea of not wanting to punish the Russian regime for this economically just because we will all feel some pain in our wallets and may have to wait an extra year before we buy that new car, reflects our weak resolve as a nation, and that we really have lost what being American is really about. It isn't about baseball, F150s and BBQs. What would the WW2 generation say about total inaction? I think they'd be disappointed and ashamed. A generation of people, a lot of which whose lives were ruined in the defense of the free world, and this is how we act? By saying who cares/not my problem? I think there is a large argument to be made that this is a tipping point. If NATO has been expanding eastward, well than that is it's destiny. Why should we let him reverse that course potentiality without paying a hefty consequence? Agree. To bad we failed them when they asked for help. No modern air defenses from US, and Israel wouldn't sell them theirs either. The Russians have them so outgunned, which was their plan all along. Agree Putin has been impressive. It is our job to make sure at the end he looks like a fumbling fool.

Concur. It is one thing to be a democracy, another to be both a democracy AND a super power with a powerful military and economy. Saying Europe should step into our shoes just isn't really a feasible option. To many different cultures, languages and tribal-ness all swirling around jam packed next to each other. To think they'd be able to collectively lead as we have I don't think is an option. That however does not free them from contributing their fair part and at least backing us up. Also the assumption that progress just happens, and would have happened without the US (ie somebody pushing it) is false. Dark ages anybody? Letting Ukraine slip without any resistance will be penny wise pound foolish. Putin is smart to capitalize on Americas aversion to conflict currently. The Ukranians are willing to fight for themselves it seems, they just need the hardware so they don't show up to a gun fight with a baseball bat. The amount of money well justify spending on our own weapons to counter "an expanding Russia" will far outweigh what we need to spend now to keep the border where it is. Why stop at Ukraine, lets say he gets all of it. Once it's part of Russia why not keep pushing West again in 5 years?