Pooter

Sounds like he needs to wear a n-95 or a full blown respirator then.. there's plenty of data supporting the effectiveness of those masks. I wouldn't want him to have to take part in a lie about cloth masks and contradict his "sincerely held religious beliefs" by wearing a nominally effective mask type. alternatively.. again.. he's a grandstanding asshole

I wonder if his Christianity prevents him from going into MOPP4 as well. Now that I can get on board with

It's funny how much you can get from reading between the lines of a single memo. Reminds me of some characters I've met at various points in my career. I would bet this dude is a perpetual problem in the squadron and his leadership is very happy he handed them a way to oust him on a velvet pillow by choosing to die on the stupidest hill possible.

Because nowhere in his overly dramatic and verbose memo does he actually cite any part of the Bible from which he is getting these "sincerely held beliefs." Literally the entire thing is: "I'm a Christian, I don't want to wear a mask, that is my sincerely held religious belief." And the document listing how chaplains concurred with him... is the memo he wrote... And nowhere in this memo does he ever address why the mask he has to wear every day to keep him safe in the airplane, is so different in the eyes of god than a cloth face mask. so like I said, grandstanding asshole

Weird that his strongly held religious beliefs allow for wearing an oxygen mask while flying but not for a mask on the ground. Id love to see which bible passages he's using as guidance. Probably from the part of Leviticus that addresses aviation and ground duties. alternatively.. politics, not Christianity, is his religion and he's being a grandstanding asshole.

I agree with you, everything I've seen points toward the vaccine reducing both transmission and symptom severity. I was just summarizing this guy's argument. And if we accept his premise that the vaccine is only useful at preventing one of the two, would it not still not be a very good idea to get it. After all, if everyone on earth has gets covid but we all get mild to no symptoms, there isn't much to be worried about.

That's a really good video. So correct me if I'm wrong but he's basically saying vaccines don't stop spread, they just reduce symptoms. Hence that outbreak in the summer in Massachusetts among vaccinated people. I'd be interested in more context for this board meeting but it sounds like his point is that mandating vaccines won't reduce case numbers and if that's your goal you are very mistaken. So my follow up question is: does that make the vaccine not worth getting? Because we have a lot of data showing vaccinated people have much less severe reactions in the event they do have a breakthrough case. If it spreads the same but the symptoms are way reduced, isn't that still a win? caveat: not arguing for mandates at all. I'm just interested in the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine.

You can say whatever you want. But don't get upset when you use ridiculous, over dramatic labels for things and then other people take those labels to their logical conclusions. While we're at it, why not call it an American bioweapon? We helped fund the research after all..

Then don't call it a "Chinese bioweapon." When you call it a bioweapon that implies a high level of intentionality both in the development and release of the virus. Words mean things. If what you actually think is it was a lab accident then just say that and resist the temptation to get hyperbolic. It sounds like we actually agree on this, for what it's worth.

You lose me with the "intentional bioweapon release" argument. It's clear that China is fucking us in the social media space and stealing our technology, but hanlon's razor clearly applies here. I know a decent number of scientists and they are invariably naive, idealistic people that would never envision a scenario where their work backfires and causes something like this. They made a mistake and now we're all paying for it. End of story. The idea this is an intentional bioweapon is just pure silliness. If you made a bioweapon to mess with the US why would the epicenter of the release be in your own country? Why would you choose an airborne, difficult to control, and not particularly deadly disease? Not to mention, we all know lockdowns and masking don't stop the problem, and China has many of the largest, most dense cities in the world which were "magically" not hit hard like every single other city in the world was. Now do we think this is because they beat covid? Or maybe they're lying about their numbers. Which do you think is easier for the government to pull off? Also Alex Jones absolutely is a national treasure. Great entertainer. Horrific source for information though. Much like the swooning over Nostradamus's vague and asinine predictions, if you throw enough shit at the wall, some of it will stick.

Okay! This is at least a data point. I appreciate you. Here's my counter argument. VAERS adverse reaction rates vs covid death rates isn't an apples to apples comparison. Those stats are measuring two entirely different things. It would make more sense to compare adverse vaccine reactions to adverse covid reactions. And in that department I think you will find adverse covid reactions to be way way higher because an "adverse event" for covid would basically be any symptomatic case. The other problem with this data point is that vaers reporting adverse vaccine reactions is simply a mechanism to report any significant health issues people get after they've had vaccine. Doctors, healthcare workers, and individuals can all submit reports so it is important to understand that vaers is a gigantic, low fidelity data dump that they use to guide further medical research. A condition being listed on vaers does not mean it was caused by the covid shot. The CDC site explains this: If a health problem is reported to VAERS, that doesn’t mean that the vaccine caused the problem. It warns vaccine safety experts of potential problems that may need investigation and alerts them to take further action, as needed. Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines. Other than rare reports of severe allergic reactions, analysis of VAERS reports has not detected any patterns that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.

As much fun as this highly productive conversation is.. I'm still waiting for a single shred of reputable scientific evidence that points to the vaccine being unsafe in any way. We've heard an awful lot of anecdotal and hypothetical concerns with precisely zero evidence to back any of it up. You guys keep saying you've poured over the data and made highly personal risk/reward calculations which led you not to get the vaccine. Except not a single one of you can cite data on these risks you keep talking about. The only hard stats anyone seems to have is the endlessly repeating "I'm not in the vulnerable demographic" argument. But that isn't how you do a risk analysis. You're forgetting about the whole other side of the equation where there's an extremely low risk mitigation measure (the vaccine) which can reduce whatever covid risk you do have by 90+ percent.

"Yeah but those are probably a bunch of out of shape civilian fatties with a million co-morbidities , not absolute STUDS like all of us military types are." -can't run 1.5 miles without a borderline medical emergency -polishes off a 6 pack, 10 ZYN pouches, and a juul cartridge per day -survives workday on a diet of white monsters, coffee, corn, and assorted snacko candies -running on 5 hrs of sleep -blood pressure absolutely through the roof

I would love to see any data the hesitant people in this thread have that is telling them getting the shot is not worth the risk. And before you repeat it for the millionth time, let's hear something other than the, "I'm not in the at-risk demographic" argument. It's not true. You are at risk. The risk is very small. And the vaccine can reduce that risk even more. You also aren't statistically likely to have an engine fire in the jet tomorrow. But you practice the boldface and do testing every month and do EPEs every year. It blows my mind that aviators are failing to understand this basic risk management concept. Just because something is very unlikely to happen doesn't mean we throw up our hands and ignore easy ways to mitigate it. Other arguments that don't constitute data: -heebee geebies about a hypothetical vaccine side effect that manifests ten years from now -microchipping -DNA modification -infertility rumors that have been debunked As far as I'm concerned the only argument against getting the vaccine that holds any water at all are people who are positive they already had covid and are coasting on natural immunity. But I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

I've said it before on this thread but I'm going to say it again because people are making the same mistake again: Stop conflating vaccine safety/effectiveness with dumb leftist public health policies. Vaccine safety data exists and it is very convincing. The infertility concerns have been roundly debunked. Serious side effects have not manifested in statistically significant amounts after literally billions of doses have been administered. As a young person, your odds of dying from covid are very low. But based on all available data, your odds of even a moderate adverse vaccine reaction are orders of magnitude lower than that. And the vaccine buys you robust protection against very unlikely but very catastrophic outcomes. Based on everything we know, this vaccine is safe. It has nothing to do with whatever fauci is flip flopping about on the news every night. It has nothing to do with how you feel about mask mandates and how each state's governor is handling this. It has nothing to do with bad DOD policies either. If you can't separate legitimate vaccine data from the political food fight going on, perhaps it's because you get your news from a talking head with a vested interest in perpetuating said food fight. You are free to do whatever you want at the end of the day, but I am confident that for most people, taking the vaccine would be the obvious choice if they could just mentally separate it from the political baggage.

Any data on that? I'm not aware of any worrying short term vax side effects that are occurring in statistically significant amounts. Most of the arguments I've seen tie it to hypothetical infertility years down the road. And for the short term, we do actually have good data because there have been billions of doses administered.

Statistically speaking you're right. People our age/fitness level are very unlikely to be hospitalized or die from covid. But that possibility still exists as does the far more likely scenario of having a symptomatic infection that knocks you on your ass for a few days/weeks. The vaccination greatly reduces the likelihood of both of those things. And if you're going to be forced to take vaccine at some point anyway, you'll have to accept the vax side effects risks whether you want to or not. That side of the equation isn't changing. Just seems like a no-brainer to me to go ahead and get it if they're going to mandate it eventually. Because if you hold out, you're basically buying all of the covid risk and all of the vaccine risk.

point to ponder: I'm hearing rumblings that full FDA authorization for the vaccine is imminent, and with that status leadership is telling us it will be made mandatory for military members very soon. So the question is, does this change the risk calculus at all for those choosing not to get the shot so far? If you will eventually be forced to take the shot and accept whatever side effect risks there are associated with the vaccine, why not just go ahead and get it now and at least buy yourself near term protection.

I read this situation a lot like taking yourself off the flying schedule if you're not good to fly. If she wasn't in the right headspace to launch herself through the air I'd much rather have her step back so she doesn't hurt the team scores and more importantly herself. Especially when it's some kind of special-d type issue as the media is reporting. She also did so with enough notice for the team to sub in another gymnast for the final and they still ended up getting silver. Not ideal but she's definitely not a shitbag. But all the talk about her being a hero is silly too. There's nothing heroic about taking yourself off the schedule. It's just a conservative, safe decision.

? I think we need to get more granular with our data here. So young people and minorities lean generally left and have lower vaccine take rates.. so probably Republicans and Democrats are getting vaxxed at the same rates? Which races and age groups are you talking about? This is what I'm talking about with the average person not grasping statistics very well. You just lumped a lot of demographics, ethnicities, and age groups together and made a wild jump. Literally voluntary polling data refutes your point: https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates-is-growing/ "Democrats are much more likely to report having been vaccinated than Republicans, and Republicans are much more likely to say that they definitely do not want to get vaccinated." It's not like this is some dirty secret. Lots of republicans are proud not to get the vaccine and have no issue telling people about it. Also county and state vaccination rates compared with political leaning refute your claim as well.

Yeah but people only understand what's 3 feet in front of their face. Biden is the president now. People are so narrative driven and stupid that I'm sure if trump won in 2020, the situation would be entirely reversed. Vaccination rates on the right would be through the roof and the left would be talking about how the process was rushed and we need to be careful putting all of our trust in these big for-profit pharmaceutical companies.

Completely agree. I'm sure the vast majority of Democrats made the decision to get the shot with little to no knowledge or consideration of the underlying data. They're just doing the thing that's in vogue for their side as well. I attribute the vaccination rate differences to two things: 1) people are driven by narratives and they want to join a team so they can hate on the other team 2) the average American has a terrifyingly poor grasp of math and statistics. Neither of these are a good basis for personal health decision making

Of course you have the right to make whatever decision for you and your family that you want. And if you have considered the data and come to that decision I am happy for you, whatever you decided. I will say I would be interested to see what your thinking is since we are coming to different conclusions. My point was that when I hear people talking about fauci, or teachers unions, or the lab leak theory suppression in reference to a vaccine discussion, it becomes abundantly clear that those people are not basing their decision on data. They are basing it on political narrative. And considering the highest vaccine acceptance states are all blue and the lowest are all red, it looks extremely closely tied to political ideology, not data. You can't tell me everyone made individual risk assessments based on data and the numbers just happened to shake out this way. Take a look: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html

I agree with you that this has been mishandled and politicized from the start. But also... the Democrats' shitty interpretation of the data shouldn't cause individuals to abandon data-based decision making in response. There are good data on the efficacy and safety of these vaccines from all over the world and none of it has anything to do with the lab leak, what the teachers unions are up to, or what fauci says on a daily basis. An educated person should be able to distinguish between those two things and still make a solid data-based health decision. Don't trust the CDC? Perfect, because there's 100+ other countries whose health departments have reams of encouraging data on vaccines too. But instead, we have close to 50% of the country refusing the vaccine. I don't think it's because they carefully considered all the data and made a finely calibrated personal health decision. It's because they're wrapped up in the covid narrative battle and they believe the Democrats/CDC/fauci are lying to them and trying to use covid to control them. Which, again is completely true. It just shouldn't be a factor in an individual personal health decision.

It's fascinating to me that after a year and a half of this people are still bringing up anecdotal evidence in the face of the literal sea of data from around the globe on this virus and the vaccines. Maybe anecdotes carry more emotional weight which cause them to resonate with people more than hard data. I'm gradually coming to the depressing realization that a lot of people simply don't care about the data, don't understand it, or are so jaded by politics they think it's all manipulated.