Studying abroad

[Guest ShortThrow]

I know this is probably a question for the cadre, but I figured I'd ask here too.

I'm considering traveling abroad for 2 consecutive semesters somewhere in the middle east. It might not even be considered studying abroad for both semesters, maybe just a sabbatical from school.

Edit: I would be taking classes most of the time. NOT a vacation.

Would I just add on another year of ROTC at my expense? Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks

[ 29. November 2006, 19:39: Message edited by: Tertle ]

[HerkDerka]

I have no idea why you want to do this.

It sounds like you want to travel more than study. You will delay commissioning, travel in the shittiest part of the world, and possibly casue yourself serious problems on a security clearance. For what? If I was an investigator, I'd be a little curious as to why an ROTC cadet wanted to take a year off from school to hang out in the middle east and then return and pursue a commission.

What are your motives here? What is it you hope to gain? Where is it you want to go? I really want to hear your answer.

HD

[Guest ShortThrow]

Originally posted by HerkDerka:

I have no idea why you want to do this.

It sounds like you want to travel more than study. You will delay commissioning, travel in the shittiest part of the world, and possibly casue yourself serious problems on a security clearance. For what? If I was an investigator, I'd be a little curious as to why an ROTC cadet wanted to take a year off from school to hang out in the middle east and then return and pursue a commission.

What are your motives here? What is it you hope to gain? Where is it you want to go? I really want to hear your answer.

HD

Well first off, I should probably say that I am French and Norwegian.

Secondly, I am majoring in international studies with a minor in middle eastern studies. I've always been really interested in Arabian culture and language; which is mainly why I want to go there. Travel more than study? Well, I almost put them down as the same thing. If someone is immersed into a wildly different culture, don't you think that would be learning and in a way studying? I would definitely want to take classes over there, but being in a classroom can only teach you so much, and there's much to learn outside of books.

My motives, well, I want to experience what I'm learning about. I want to be in their culture and study everything I can about it. I want to see historical sites an cities and I want to see what it's like to live there in clay houses with open markets and people bartering goods to make their life. I want to see what else is out there besides the American way of life. I want to truly experience and learn what they think about us. I want to be able to teach others about Muslims and Arab people with first hand experience so that more Americans can see them for the peaceful and loving people and nation(of Islam) that they really are.

Now please please don't tie my ambitions to a lack of patriotism. God knows I love America and would do anything for her, but there ARE other ways of life. I would also gladly delay my commissioning a year if I had the chance to travel there at such a young age. The AF will always be here when I get back, whether or not such a travel would prohibit me from attaining a security clearance, well I don't know what's more important, ROTC does always preach education first; but the AF is definitely where I want to end up. I feel like a 10-12 month long 'vacation' in Arab land(s) would truly be an enlightening and rewarding experience.

[ 29. November 2006, 00:01: Message edited by: Tertle ]

[dontshavemyhead]

French, that explains it.

You're going to have plenty of time to spend in the desert. Let the AF pay you to be there.

That said, I did not read past the part about you being french.

[PET-Shot]

Originally posted by Tertle:

I feel like a 10-12 month long 'vacation' in Arab land(s) would truly be an enlightening and rewarding experience.

I think that this will likely hamper your ability to serve especially under those circumstances. You may very well have to decide what is more important to you.

You will travel while in the Air Force, and you are more than welcome to travel once you get out of the Air Force. Leaving ROTC for a year to travel to those countries for "vacation" will not look favorable on you. Do some in depth research before you make your choice. And contrary to what you said, the Air Force may not always be there for you when you get back. Think about it.

I am sure others agree with me.

[ 29. November 2006, 06:21: Message edited by: PET-Shot ]

[Guest KoolKat]

Terts, didn't you watch "Road to Gitmo?"

As far as I'm concerned, just be perfectly clear about what your thinking of doing, as well as the possible repurcussions.

And for the love of Pete, don't go getting your head chopped off. There is really no good call for that kind of thing.

BENDY

[Guest Dactyl]

Study abroad while enrolled in ROTC is possible under certain circumstances. The biggest hurdle for you is going to be figuring out how to complete all your AS classes, if you are a POC study abroad is almost impossible unless you plan on doing a year as an ECL (And studying abroad that same year) because the AF has already given you an enrollment allocation & contracted with you to graduate in that particular fiscal year. Therefore there is no way to finish AS300/400 level classes unless you will be in school for 3 years after field training. With that you also have to consider other smaller requirements like a mandatory leadership position for one semester as a POC etc...

I'm currently an ECL and got a waiver to study abroad in London (Yes, you must get a HQ waiver - talk to your cadre first). I'll tell you now that getting the waiver for one semester in London was officially a PITA. Now imagine trying to get one for a whole year in the Middle East!

One more thing, if you really are going to go try and do this you should be studying at a school -- your cadre will laugh and point at you if you tell them you want a waiver for a 1 year vacation. Unless it has an academic benefit (or you can prove to the Air Force that it does), chances are you will not be going abroad.

[brabus]

1 semester is bad enough, go for 2...say goodbye to flying (most likely). What year in school are you? Are you talking about taking your junior year? Besides all the shit tons of problems you'll cause for yourself security clearance wise, you will SEVERELY hurt your chances at a rated slot. What's more important, flying in the AF (and getting PLENTY of derkastan "vacation" time) or paying out of your own pocket to spend a year in a bad part of the world (yes I know the culture is interesting, but so is living, get it?). This is definitely a bad decision if being an officer and a flyer is even remotely an important goal to you.

Bottom line: You need to sit down and evaluate your priorities in life...sounds like you have them backasswards if a military career is what you truely want.

[ 29. November 2006, 09:43: Message edited by: brabus ]

[Guest ShortThrow]

Originally posted by brabus:

1 semester is bad enough, go for 2...say goodbye to flying (most likely). What year in school are you? Are you talking about taking your junior year? Besides all the shit tons of problems you'll cause for yourself security clearance wise, you will SEVERELY hurt your chances at a rated slot. What's more important, flying in the AF (and getting PLENTY of derkastan "vacation" time) or paying out of your own pocket to spend a year in a bad part of the world (yes I know the culture is interesting, but so is living, get it?). This is definitely a bad decision if being an officer and a flyer is even remotely an important goal to you.

Bottom line: You need to sit down and evaluate your priorities in life...sounds like you have them backasswards if a military career is what you truely want.

My priorities are assbackwards because I want to learn about another culture? Why would they give a flying **** what I like to learn about? The DoD does value people who study foreign cultures and languages and especially Arabic so I don't know why me spending time there would be detrimental as long as I can prove I'm not going there for some jihad training camp.

[osulax05]

Maybe try the language emersion thing that ROTC offers in the Summer if you are really interested in learning about the muslim culture. They'll send you somewhere safe and it will be officially sanctioned by the AF.

Agree with everyone else, if you want to go hang out in the sandbox on your own for a year you can def kiss that Security Clearance and possibly commission goodbye.

[Guest ShortThrow]

Well it wasn't a problem when I got into ROTC and told them that I had been in Turkey and Jordan. I guess I can only ask, though.

[ 29. November 2006, 15:02: Message edited by: Tertle ]

[Vandal]

You might as well ask your cadre what they think. We have a cadet in Spain right now, yes it is not exactly Derka-ville, but it isn't exactly the best place in Europe. The worst they can say is that you shouldn't go. Good luck to you.

[PET-Shot]

I have been to Turkey as well. But only while traveling. Visiting an arab/Islamic nation for 3 weeks is vastly different than living there for a 11-12 months. By living there for that long you will inevitably make "contacts" according to investigators. They will ask you this strait up, and there is no way you could deny it. They would take a very close look at that.

You can study the language, culture, beliefs in the US. The Air Force does have emersion programs where they will send you on official orders - which they look at a lot differently than if you go off and do it on your own.

I have a pilot in my squadron who became perminently DNIFd and DQd from flying. He is fluent in Chineese and has studied the culture. The Air Force is now sending him on a 6-8 month emersion program to China instead of giving him the pink slip, and they offered him an Intel Slot to boot.

There is no reason to take off a year of school to go there to experience the language and culture. You will have the opportunities in the future to do the same thing. After you look into it further, you should let us know what you find out and what you decide.

[brabus]

My priorities are assbackwards because I want to learn about another culture?

No, they appear backasswards because you seem to have no problem putting your officer/flying career in huge jeopardy for some vacation. If you could take it or leave it with the AF/flying, no big deal if doesn't work out, etc....then by all means take your trip (and on a second note, just stop even thinking about going for a rated slot IF that is your attitude). I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good experience, you would learn a lot, etc. I'm saying you think it's more important to go on some "cool" trip for a year than to become an officer and a pilot.

You'll see plenty of the world later on.

[Guest ShortThrow]

Originally posted by brabus:

No, they appear backasswards because you seem to have no problem putting your officer/flying career in huge jeopardy for some vacation. If you could take it or leave it with the AF/flying, no big deal if doesn't work out, etc....then by all means take your trip (and on a second note, just stop even thinking about going for a rated slot IF that is your attitude). I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good experience, you would learn a lot, etc. I'm saying you think it's more important to go on some "cool" trip for a year than to become an officer and a pilot.

You'll see plenty of the world later on.

[brabus]

Well sure, you'll be studying...so it's not a vacation in the common sense. How bout "adventure." Does that better describe what you're wanting to do? You yourself even used the term "sabbatical." If you're going to go abroad, don't do it for a whole year, just do a semester. If you're away for an entire year, that's an entire year that cadre will have to forget about you, not be able to judge your ability and then when you come back and say, "hey, I want pilot"...they'll say, "hey! Go sit in a hole, but don't worry, you can still be cool and wear a bag!" Much higher chance of something like that happening if you go abroad; magnified 10 times if you go for a year. THAT is what you really need to think about hard before making this decision.

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Tertle:

so that more Americans can see them for the peaceful and loving people and nation(of Islam) that they really are.

Wow...I guess I never though of it that way...

I personally don't care what you do. I'm not being judgmental.

But as someone who has been to more than enough derkastans, I can say that it isn't always the beautiful rich culture that you think it is. Some of the countries have embraced western culture and are living like hogs off the dividends. Some are the most vile examples of existence on the planet. Many of them are uneducated, oppressed and turn to religious fanaticism as their only release.

If you want to go be happy in sand land, go ahead. I guarantee you will cause yourself problems in your career. It may not be much, and it may be the end before it even begins. But I guarantee you will cause yourself problems.

HD

[ 29. November 2006, 19:51: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[Guest ShortThrow]

Originally posted by brabus:

Well sure, you'll be studying...so it's not a vacation in the common sense. How bout "adventure." Does that better describe what you're wanting to do? You yourself even used the term "sabbatical." If you're going to go abroad, don't do it for a whole year, just do a semester. If you're away for an entire year, that's an entire year that cadre will have to forget about you, not be able to judge your ability and then when you come back and say, "hey, I want pilot"...they'll say, "hey! Go sit in a hole, but don't worry, you can still be cool and wear a bag!" Much higher chance of something like that happening if you go abroad; magnified 10 times if you go for a year. THAT is what you really need to think about hard before making this decision.

I wouldn't call it adventure. I'd consider it a "lab" for someone focusing on middle eastern studies, while getting class credit and taking clsses in the process.

[Guest ShortThrow]

Originally posted by HerkDerka:

Wow...I guess I never though of it that way...

I personally don't care what you do. I'm not being judgmental.

But as someone who has been to more than enough derkastans, I can say that it isn't always the beautiful rich culture that you think it is. Some of the countries have embraced western culture and are living like hogs off the dividends. Some are the most vile examples of existence on the planet. Many of them are uneducated, oppressed and turn to religious fanaticism as their only release.

If you want to go be happy in sand land, go ahead. I guarantee you will cause yourself problems in your career. It may not be much, and it may be the end before it even begins. But I guarantee you will cause yourself problems.

HD

[Guest sharkfood911]

Originally posted by Tertle:

I wouldn't call it adventure. I'd consider it a "lab" for someone focusing on middle eastern studies, while getting class credit and taking clsses in the process.

Originally posted by Tertle:

Well I'll take your professional opinion seriously, because you are a professional and know a whole hell of a lot more about the AF than I do.

Don't be a smartass. You've got your answer from plenty of knowledgeable folks, listen to them. It's a bad idea but nobody's going stop you if you really want to do it. Good luck.

[Guest ShortThrow]

I wasn't being a smart ass.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I say you go for it.

I was working with some friends that met someone with the same ideas you have. They introduced themselves and listened very closely to what he had to say and even took his picture...

I'll tell my friends to keep an eye out for you and maybe you can hook up with them once you get established.

Have fun and good luck.

NOTE: Turdle is either yanking everyone's chain or very naive and immature and not going to listen to people giving him excellent advice about staying on track to become an officer. I say we lock it and move on.

[brabus]

Turdle is either yanking everyone's chain or very naive and immature and not going to listen to people giving him excellent advice about staying on track to become an officer. I say we lock it and move on.

That about sums it up...agreed.

[Guest Dactyl]

Originally posted by Tertle:

Doesn't it seem that first hand experience in Arab lands would be beneficial to the AF and our government?

Do you think the govt would deem it beneficial for you to experience the North Vietnamese culture in 1968, the Russian culture in 1961, or the German culture in 1943?

Originally posted by Tertle:

The reason so many people think they are all America haters and live by the bullet is because that's all we ever hear about and see.

I only need to see one person's head ripped off in the name of destroying America to believe that. No, they're not ALL America haters, but people that are Arabic haters over here don't find the first Muslim they see and take their head.

I don't know you, regardless; you are probably a good American citizen and would be valuable to the Air Force. However, all that matters is perception, which you won't have going for you if you pursue this.

[Whitman]

Tertle,

There are plenty of options for studying and learning foreign cultures abroad. In ROTC you should look into the Foreign Language Immersion summer program. Once on active duty the opportunities continue. My friend is a C-17 pilot and vol'd to learn Arabic or Farsi for a year. They sent him up to Washington for a few months of indoctrination and now he is in Jordan learning the language and the culture all sanctioned by the Air Force. This is a very good move for his career and I'm told he's on the fast track as this program is only reserved for a select few.

The bottom line is this: If it's a program developed and ran by the Air Force, then you are safe and nothing will be questioned. Play by the rules and don't single yourself out. Life will be a lot easier for you that way. Good luck

- Whit