Bring Back:

[Hacker]

BTW, the WWII bombers still had a hi-anus CEP even with the Norden bombsight.

From talking to actual WWII bombardiers, it's probably got something to do with the fact that none of them knew exactly how it worked. They learned to bomb with basic ballistic tables out of AT-11s over Kansas, and applied that same knowledge over Berlin. When I've had conversations with them about details like computing the parts of the bombing triangle (especially stuff of minor importance like HAT), I have usually received a blank stare in return.

Turns out most of them practiced from low altitude (only a couple thousand feet) where minor errors in HAT and wind corrections didn't have that large of an effect on aiming or hitting. Once they got to medium altitude over Europe, those same 'skills' didn't exactly work as well as they did back home.

Take that in concert that not every ship in the bomber formation was even really aiming and many simply dropped their ordnance when the lead ship dropped theirs, and it's no wonder they didn't really hit anything precisely.

At least, that's what those guys tell me. Never used a Norden myself.

Nifty fact: Both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki drops would have been scored as a "miss" by our nuke standards.

[Guest]

Bring back the days when the old heads didn't sit around and complain, they sat around and figured out how to make it better...and then executed.

From talking to actual WWII bombardiers...

Young guys take note...this is what understanding your heritage is all about. You never know what you'll learn but you have to make the effort.

[FourFans]

Well put. I can think of maybe one full bird I've seen actually out leading the fight for real (without a seeing eye IP).

FF

[Jimmy.The.Engineer]

The AF goes through a major ID change, every five years or so. Stop and take a gander around every now and then and you'll see it. For all of the stupid-ass queep we have these days, things have taken a turn for the better. I can hear all of the post 9-11 types disagreeing with that but they have no reference. I'll explain.

Before 9-11, we went to places like Saudi Arabia, Turkey (Northern/Southern Watch, OPC), and I still don't know what the fvck that Bosnia thing was all about and I was in it. Point being, we had no focus and we were acting like the 101st guys in BOB on the tenth disc. My buddy, Mambo, rightly pointed out that we needed the Cold War back. The Russians were the best thing that happened to the US military. Sure we have to deal with disco belts, lack of orderly rooms (man I miss them), DTS (I too remember the gangster roll you signed out from an armed finance dude at the cashier cage.), me doing finance/MPF's job (I miss the CBPO) and SNCOs "helping" us with polyester clothing gig lines on shorts that make you leave a ball sweat mark in the chow hall (I won't bend. It is a motherfvckin chow hall, not a DFAC) but we have an enemy again. A no-shit enemy. Be they Soviet, AQ or the Mars attacks aliens, we need an enemy - a bona fide bad guy to curse and we have one. Personally, I would like to see the Soviets come back. I liked getting free pencils at work.

[Jimmy.The.Engineer]

I'm sure I'm breaking some type of forum netiquette rule by posting after my own post but I forgot to comment on why I really wanted to squawk. I find it repugnant that some of your units out there aren't letting you carry on combat sorties. We carry 9s, M4s, 203s and 249s, for the same reason a dog licks his balls. Maybe you should join the dark side. We have really cool toys.

This post was just blatant, shameless and self-serving but, hey, we fought a war. This is America and I can be as arrogant as I please.

[Beaver]

I think your only "netiquette" violation is posting drunk and stupid.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

By "we" you mean "you." Some people still do them. they are not difficult.

2. It's not a complicated task...for God's sake it only requires your eyes and perhaps a pencil...and after you do them for a while, you don't even need the pencil.

...and by better airplane you mean the computer automated c-130 shaped beer can also known as the C-130 J model? Automation and full computer integration does not make "better airplanes" it makes lazy pilots.

Legacy Hercs Fo' life!!!

edited for clarity

Enjoy having another human doing your navigating for you, and another human doing the systems stuff for you. Having flown the E, H and J, the J is far better. It makes a lazy pilot only if you let it.

I for one actually like knowing 100% where I'm going, instead of hoping the Nav is doing his job right...I like being able to see the radar (you can tell I'm an old E model guy). I like being able to hook up the automation and sort things out if things do start going to hell.

Finally, I like having a cruise altitude of FL350, and actually being able to push a turboprop to 360 true...not to mention having a 2 engine service ceiling of 19,000 feet. You go on ahead and enjoy maxing out your cruise at FL180 and having subterranean 2 and 3-engine driftdown altitudes.

I won't even mention running the air conditioning during preflight with the APU and packs going.

Well put. I can think of maybe one full bird I've seen actually out leading the fight for real (without a seeing eye IP).

FF

Yeah, most want you to do all the preflighting and hold their hand. I'd be embarrassed as a pilot and aviator if I made some Lt or Capt do all the work and talk me through stuff. But then again, that's why I probably won't be an O-6.

[TacoJohn]

.45 caliber sidearms.

[Spoo]

Bring back Cannon!

Not sure if you meant the weapon or the base, but both are still around.

Cannon and Cannon.

Yes, I generally like to wait 2-3 weeks prior to replying to a post.

[HiFlyer]

More of the 1955 guys. Spoo knows...

[Spoo]

More of the 1955 guys. Spoo knows...

Here, here...Hail Dragons!

EDIT: BTW, had a wicked good time at the 55th Anniversary Reunion this weekend. In fact, I'm still not FMC.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Spoo

[HiFlyer]

Here, here...Hail Dragons!

EDIT: BTW, had a wicked good time at the 55th Anniversary Reunion this weekend. In fact, I'm still not FMC.

Yep, truly a great weekend...I am also still in the recovery mode.

For those not in the know (most of you), the "1955" refers to the hard core guys who started with the U-2 in 1955. There were five of them at the 55th anniversary reunion this weekend. The part that really struck me, though, was that at the banquet opening they had a great video honoring all the drivers that didn't survive and the year of their death, and went down the list starting with the first loss. As the program went on, name after name was shown, with 1955 as the year they died. I lost count and need to go get some old documents to check, but there must have been a dozen or more of them listed in 1955, with several more in 1956. Keep in mind that the first flight of the U-2 wasn't until Aug 1st, so all those guys crashed and died in the first five months of the program's existance, and the "test" program was being run at the same time the first crews were in training; they were the testing. I do know that they lost two on one day. Can you imagine the balls of those guys who went out every day to fly an aircraft that crashed and killed its pilot at an average rate of between two and three guys a month...out of one squadron!!!

Frankly, I also find it amazing that the Skunk Works could keep building them fast enough to keep airplanes around for the remaining guys to fly!! Of the five who survived to make it to the reunion I know at least one, and I think two, had to bail out of disintegrating airplanes during their first year, too, so that is all the fatal losses plus one or two more non-fatal aircraft losses in that first few months.

Balls. BIG balls!!!

Edited September 14, 2010 by HiFlyer

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Can you imagine the balls of those guys who went out every day to fly an aircraft that crashed and killed its pilot at an average rate of between two and three guys a month...out of one squadron!!!

:beer:

Today, no one would be allowed to do a walk-around on something like that because ORM was too high.

[BQZip01]

Powerpoint 97!!!

j/k

The benefits of a Powerpointless AF far outweigh any negatives

[brabus]

Today, no one would be allowed to do a walk-around on something like that because ORM was too high.

Nah, you just have to circle some numbers on an ORM worksheet. It makes ORM a non-player.

[Kaman]

Radial engines, stag bars, Beer call, khakis...Oh wait, that was my Dad's Air Force. He'd be very disappointed to see what has become of the USAF.

[HiFlyer]

Radial engines, stag bars, Beer call, khakis...Oh wait, that was my Dad's Air Force. He'd be very disappointed to see what has become of the USAF.

Well, radials were only "romantic" if you didn't have to deal with them...smelly, oily, vibrating, not-very-reliable POS engined compared to turbines.

Khakies (1505s, I presume you mean), maybe...good in dry climates but sweat-soaked mess in high humidity...first thick and wet, then white salt stains when they dry. I prefer the current light blue shirt, personally.

Stag bars and beer call, absolutely!

And don't forget about the "several-mistakes" Air Force, as opposed to the current "one perceived mistake" (even if it really wasn't one) Air Force.

Edited September 16, 2010 by HiFlyer

[Duck]

Hey! Remember when the Air Force actually cared about the people? Yeah... me neither.

[BQZip01]

wall-to-wall counseling

Enough money/personnel to do proper maintenance/training

SAC (just the good parts)

People who cared about national pride and being #1 (too many people more interested in whether something interferes with their Halo tournament vice getting the mission accomplished) U!S!A! U!S!A! U!S!A! U!S!A! U!S!A!

PME in-residence was "something to do", but not required

People who could brief without Powerpoint (even briefing a 4-star!)

A time with less shoeclerks (I know this has ALWAYS been a problem with the military, I just wish people were empowered to DO something about it)

[Fud]

wall-to-wall counseling

Enough money/personnel to do proper maintenance/training

SAC (just the good parts)

1. Wall-to-wall counseling-you can still get away with doing it sometimes. The MPF, and CLOSS (Commander's Lack of Support Staff) were not helping anyone out during walkin appointment times. I knocked on the door where they all lurk and proceeded to chew the A1C out who was obviously not doing her job. She was visibly pissed off, but when I asked to speak to her supervisor, people magically started being helped at record pace.

2. Enough money/personnel-I have heard this argument before and I have never bought it. 20% of the people in a squadron do 80% of the actual work. These folks are the ones who will eventually be promoted to the higher ranks of the Air Force, while their families (there will be multiples due to the high divorce rate) suffer. We are always being asked to do more with less, but we should be doing less of the bullshit, and calling it out every day. When a commander asks how to make life better, stand up and tell him/her what sucks. Do this once, because things will either change, or you will be looked at as a problem child. The USAF has a terrible feedback system on how to trim the fat, and nothing is a problem until it has gotten so bad, we are seeing mushroom clouds (literally someday, maybe). Just look at Boyd and how people are now starting to see the light of his great ideas.

3. SAC sucked, I don't care who you are. Taking pride in following checklists is like CLOSS member actually doing their job. SAC was not all bad, but their mentality was. Read Chapter 22 in the new Robin Olds biography. The organization and how it was run was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. I hate the way the nuclear enterprise is run, and wish AFGSC could trim down the checklists so they could be followed by a kindergardener, but someone's OPR needs to be padded at the staff level.

***I think the USAF needs to bring back it's drinking/partying culture after a smart week's work. I love to tie a couple on every friday night, but only seem to get strange looks from the people that come in, have one beer, and leave. The culture is changing in the USAF for the worse, and it all starts with the leadership at the top. I can still mentor a young airman to do their job, but I could also be bent over the barrel for not being too sensitive. If you are too sensitive to be yelled at, then you shouldn't be trusted with any type of weapon, or be in the service period.***

End Rant.

[FlyingBull]

***I think the USAF needs to bring back it's drinking/partying culture after a smart week's work. I love to tie a couple on every friday night, but only seem to get strange looks from the people that come in, have one beer, and leave. The culture is changing in the USAF for the worse, and it all starts with the leadership at the top. I can still mentor a young airman to do their job, but I could also be bent over the barrel for not being too sensitive. If you are too sensitive to be yelled at, then you shouldn't be trusted with any type of weapon, or be in the service period.***

End Rant.

I have to say that this part is actually being practiced down here in Pcola. The Air Force practically takes over the O'Club every Friday. It's not just students, instructors and leadership are there every Friday evening as well and certainly not just for one beer.

Edited September 17, 2010 by FlyingBull

[BQZip01]

I have to say that this part is actually being practiced down here in Pcola. The Air Force practically takes over the O'Club every Friday. It's not just students, instructors and leadership are there every Friday evening as well and certainly not just for one beer.

Same at Minot. It isn't the drinking that is promoted as much as the camaraderie.

1. Wall-to-wall counseling-you can still get away with doing it sometimes. The MPF, and CLOSS (Commander's Lack of Support Staff) were not helping anyone out during walkin appointment times. I knocked on the door where they all lurk and proceeded to chew the A1C out who was obviously not doing her job. She was visibly pissed off, but when I asked to speak to her supervisor, people magically started being helped at record pace.

2. Enough money/personnel-I have heard this argument before and I have never bought it. 20% of the people in a squadron do 80% of the actual work. These folks are the ones who will eventually be promoted to the higher ranks of the Air Force, while their families (there will be multiples due to the high divorce rate) suffer. We are always being asked to do more with less, but we should be doing less of the bullshit, and calling it out every day. When a commander asks how to make life better, stand up and tell him/her what sucks. Do this once, because things will either change, or you will be looked at as a problem child. The USAF has a terrible feedback system on how to trim the fat, and nothing is a problem until it has gotten so bad, we are seeing mushroom clouds (literally someday, maybe). Just look at Boyd and how people are now starting to see the light of his great ideas.

3. SAC sucked, I don't care who you are. Taking pride in following checklists is like CLOSS member actually doing their job. SAC was not all bad, but their mentality was. Read Chapter 22 in the new Robin Olds biography. The organization and how it was run was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. I hate the way the nuclear enterprise is run, and wish AFGSC could trim down the checklists so they could be followed by a kindergardener, but someone's OPR needs to be padded at the staff level.

1. I think we differ on our definitions of wall-to-wall counseling.

2. Agreed

3. Hold on a minute there. ACC is the only one who ever had missing nukes. Taking pride in developing procedures to maximize effectiveness in a SIOP plan and intimidating the hell out of the Ruskies and win the Cold War is something positive. Yes, there were indeed problems with a "there is ONE correct way to do XYZ" mentality, but those problems exist EVERYWHERE. Robin Olds perspective is tainted by SAC's Vietnam years (piss poor, but that was limited to <8 years of involvement and SAC was around for MUCH more than that time). He omits the number of personnel lost in TAC just because guys were showing off. Until they put a stop to that kind of behavior, there were some pretty serious losses in TAC due to showboating. Please don't compare AFGSC to SAC; while there are similarities, the differences are vast.

[ClearedHot]

3. Hold on a minute there. ACC is the only one who ever had missing nukes.

A little fact checking goes a LONG way...

March 10, 1956, Over the Mediterranean Sea

A B-47 bomber carrying two nuclear weapon cores in their carrying cases disappeared over the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft, on a nonstop flight from MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, to an undisclosed overseas airbase, was lost with its crew. After takeoff the B-47 was scheduled for two in-flight-refuelings before reaching its final destination. The first refueling was successfully completed, but the aircraft never made contact with the second refueling tanker over the Mediterranean Sea. Despite an extensive search, no trace of the aircraft, the nuclear weapon cores, or crew, were ever found.

July 28, 1957, Over the Atlantic Ocean

A C-124 transport aircraft that was having mechanical problems jettisoned two nuclear weapons without their fissile cores off the east coast of the United States. The C-124 was en route from Dover Air Force Base in Delaware when it lost power to its number one and two engines. The crew determined that level flight could not be maintained with the weight of the weapons onboard and decided to jettison the cargo. Although neither weapon detonated, both are presumed to have been damaged from impact with the ocean surface and to have sunk almost instantly. Neither the weapons nor debris were ever found. The C-124 safely landed at an airfield near Atlantic City, New Jersey, with the remaining weapon and nuclear warhead aboard.

February 5, 1958, Savannah River, Georgia

A nuclear weapon without a fissile core was lost following a mid-air collision. A B-47 bomber carrying a nuclear weapon without its fissile core collided with a F-86 aircraft near Savannah, Georgia. Following three unsuccessful attempts to land the plane at Hunter Air Force Base in Georgia, the weapon was jettisoned to avoid the risk of a high explosive detonation at the base. The weapon was jettisoned into the water several miles from the mouth of Savannah River in Wassaw Sound off Tybee Beach, but the precise point of impact is unknown. The weapon's high explosives did not detonate on impact. A subsequent search covering three square miles used divers and sonar devices, but failed to find the weapon. The search was ended on April 16, 1958, and the weapon was considered to be irretrievably lost.

Some accounts of nuclear weapon accidents list a February 12, 1958, accident involving a B-47 near Savannah, Georgia. "The best estimate" of the weapon's location, an earlier DoD narrative noted, "was determined to be 31 degrees 54' 15" North, 80 degrees 54' 45" West." The B-47 was on a simulated combat mission from Florida's Homestead Air Force Base.

September 25, 1959, Off Whidbey Island, Washington

A U.S. Navy P-5M aircraft carrying an unarmed nuclear depth charge without its fissile core crashed into Puget Sound near Whidbey Island, Washington. The weapon was never recovered.

January 24, 1961, Goldsboro, North Carolina

In what nearly became a nuclear catastrophe, a B-52 bomber on airborne alert carrying two nuclear weapons broke apart in midair. The B-52 experienced structural failure in its right wing and the aircraft's resulting breakup released the two weapons from a height of 2,000-10,000 feet. One of the bomb's parachutes deployed properly and that weapon's damage was minimal. However, the second bomb's parachute malfunctioned and the weapon broke apart upon impact, scattering its components over a wide area. According to Daniel Ellsberg, the weapon could have accidentally fired because "five of the six safety devices had failed." Nuclear physicist Ralph E. Lapp supported this assertion, saying that "only a single switch" had "prevented the bomb from detonating and spreading fire and destruction over a wide area."

Despite an extensive search of the waterlogged farmland where the weapon was believed to have landed, the bomb's highly enriched uranium core was never recovered. In order to prevent any discovery of the lost portion of the weapon, the Air Force purchased an easement which required that permission be obtained before any construction or digging could begin in the area. Three crew members were killed in the crash.

The accident was apparently so serious that it was reported to newly-elected President John F. Kennedy. According to Newsweek, President Kennedy was informed after the accident that "there had been more than 60 accidents involving nuclear weapons" since World War II, "including two cases in which nuclear-tipped anti-aircraft missiles were actually launched by inadvertence." As a result of the Goldsboro accident, the U.S. placed many new safety devices on its nuclear arsenal and the Soviet Union was encouraged to do the same.

December 5, 1965, Aboard the USS Ticonderoga (CVA-14) in the Pacific Ocean

An A-4E Skyhawk strike aircraft carrying a nuclear weapon rolled off an elevator on the U.S. aircraft carrier Ticonderoga and fell into the sea. Because the bomb was lost at a depth of approximately 16,000 feet, Pentagon officials feared that intense water pressure could have caused the B-43 hydrogen bomb to explode. It is still unknown whether an explosion did occur. The pilot, aircraft, and weapon were lost.

The Pentagon claimed that the bomb was lost "500 miles away from land." However, it was later revealed that the aircraft and nuclear weapon sank only miles from the Japanese island chain of Ryukyu. Several factors contributed to the Pentagon's secretiveness. The USS Ticonderoga was returning from a mission off North Vietnam; confirming that the carrier had nuclear weapons aboard would document their introduction into the Vietnam War. Furthermore, Japan's anti-nuclear law prohibited the introduction of atomic weapons into its territory, and U.S. military bases in Japan are not exempt from this law. Thus, confirming that the USS Ticonderoga carried nuclear weapons would signify U.S. violation of its military agreements with Japan. The carrier was headed to Yokosuka, Japan, and disclosure of the accident in the mid-1980s caused a strain in U.S.-Japanese relations.

[bagasticks]

Most of this thread is idle fantasy/nostalgia, making the current AF seem worse with every post. I'd rather read a thread full of examples like Flying Bull's Pcola experience and the others in this thread where tradition actually has been restored or preserved.

You make an excellent point and I'll contribute. .

Last Halloween, costume party at the muff (AUAB). Absolute drunken, multi-national party that in 16 years of mil aviation, was among the top 10 i've attended. . . . Always a good time to be had at that place. Bad news is, i heard the muff is no more? .

[Guest]

3. Hold on a minute there.

C'mon, don't even start trying to argue that SAC did not suck. SAC totally sucked ass and EVERYONE knows it. Sucked. Ass.

I always love it when former SAC guys claim they singlehandedly won the cold war...sitting at their stateside bases. Anyone that says that has absolutely no SA about why the USSR finally caved in. It's like saying the GWOT will be won by Eagle guys sitting homeland defense alert.

The only thing anyone in TAC was happy about when TAC ate SAC was the fact that SAC was finally gone...and that the USAF would finally be run by fighter guys for a while.