Motorcycle Riders Thread

[xaarman]

What is briefed as the penalty for non-compliance with these arbitrary and unhelpful local rules?

First off, let me be clear and say I 100% believe the AF motorcycle program is nothing but CYA. I have submitted plenty of answers on surveys to actually improve the program, and instead all we got was more mandatory parking lot courses.

SFS can/has denied people entry to base for failing to show their MSF completion card or lack of insurance.

Punishment is administrative by whatever your commander deems necessary for not following an AFI. Also, they'll get knocked in the motorcycle safety inspection paperwork.

The LODD and denial of SGLI threats are false and a pet peeve. Every single NCO believes them, but backs down when you present them with facts. They all had a friend that was an airman at another base that they heard they did a LODD and got stuck with all the medical bills blah blah.

LODD has to prove gross negligence in order to deny benefits. Not negligence, but gross... like if you're bragging to your friends how you're not gonna follow any AFIs, post pictures on FB of you stuntin' down mainstreet in a t shirt and sandals, and pulling wheelies on the freeway, then then get in an accident, then they might have a case.

The SGLI will never be denied unless extreme circumstances occur (ie prison/treason/desertion) https://www.monterey.army.mil/legal/wills/sglideny.pdf

edit - more reading material:

Overview of LODD: https://www.jber.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-110223-065.pdf

and the reg, 36-2910:

1.3. Limits on Use of an LOD Determination. An LOD determination shall not be used for the following purposes:

1.3.1. Disciplinary Action. The LOD determination is separate and distinct from judicial processes or other disciplinary actions. In some instances it may be appropriate to conduct disciplinary actions simultaneously with the LOD determination.

1.3.2. Reimbursement of Medical Expenses. An active duty member cannot be denied medical treatment based on an LOD determination. An LOD determination does not authorize the United States to recoup the cost of medical care from the active duty member.

Edited December 13, 2014 by xaarman

[Herk Driver]

What is briefed as the penalty for non-compliance with these arbitrary and unhelpful local rules?

Which arbitrary rules are you referring to? Edited December 13, 2014 by Herk Driver

[xaarman]

^ on base only.

Edited December 13, 2014 by xaarman

[Herk Driver]

^ on base only.

91-207 applies to AF personnel on or off duty and on or off a military installation

[Learjetter]

Which arbitrary rules are you referring to?

The ones like having to carry your MSF card.

Eta: point taken...there are so many arbitrary and pointless ones...

Edited December 13, 2014 by Learjetter

[xaarman]

91-207 doesn't give the authority for commanders to take away your riding privileges off base. It's also 100% unenforceable.

[Herk Driver]

The ones like having to carry your MSF card.

At most bases I have been at you would be denied entry to the installation without the sticker or the card.

At my last squadron, failing to comply with any of the requirements in 91-207 resulted in a warning the first time and not riding a bike for 3 months the second time. After that it was losing the privilege for the remainder of your time in the squadron.

The policy was never needed because no one tested it.

91-207 doesn't give the authority for commanders to take away your riding privileges off base. It's also 100% unenforceable.

Actually it requires you to get your commanders approval to ride a bike, period. Without it, you can't ride a bike and your commander can withdraw that approval if you fail to comply with program requirements. It is 100% enforceable. It is not only AF policy...it is DOD policy. Failing to obey an order from your commander is a UCMJ offense and enforceable 24/7, 365, on or off base. Look up case law if you don't think so. Edited December 13, 2014 by Herk Driver

[xaarman]

Actually it requires you to get your commanders approval to ride a bike, period. Without it, you can't ride a bike and your commander can withdraw that approval if you fail to comply with program requirements. It is 100% enforceable. It is not only AF policy...it is DOD policy. Failing to obey an order from your commander is a UCMJ offense and enforceable 24/7, 365, on or off base. Look up case law if you don't think so.

Nah. In Table 4.1, it says the following:

Prior to operation of a motorcycle. (T-0)

Pending completion of initial training, commanders may authorize operators who possess a valid motorcycle license, endorsement or riders permit to ride subject to any restrictions imposed by such license, endorsement, or permit.

Tier 0 (T-0)—Determined by respective non-AF authority (e.g. Congress, White House, Office of Secretary of Defense, Joint Staff). The waiver authority is non-applicable, or external to AF.

My current base only offers the MSF course 2-4 times a year, depending on funding. If the last course offered is in June, and someone in-processes in July who has a motorcycle, riding experience and a valid class M license, we have a memo we draw up that works in lieu of an MSF completion card. If they have no riding experience, we do not give them the memo, hence the "may authorize to ride" discretion part.

The Commander briefs you because it is a high risk activity, but at no point does he "approve" you to ride. He only ensures you have done the proper training IAW DoD requirements.

I mean, whats to say a Commander instituting a rule that if a rider does something deserving of punitive action, he's going to disapprove of you riding off base as punishment? What about not letting you drive a car off base? I think you may be interpreting the rules wrong.

Edited December 13, 2014 by xaarman

[Herk Driver]

Nah. In Table 4.1, it says the following:

Prior to operation of a motorcycle. (T-0)

Pending completion of initial training, commanders may authorize operators who possess a valid motorcycle license, endorsement or riders permit to ride subject to any restrictions imposed by such license, endorsement, or permit.

Tier 0 (T-0)—Determined by respective non-AF authority (e.g. Congress, White House, Office of Secretary of Defense, Joint Staff). The waiver authority is non-applicable, or external to AF.

My current base only offers the MSF course 2-4 times a year, depending on funding. If the last course offered is in June, and someone in-processes in July who has a motorcycle, riding experience and a valid class M license, we have a memo we draw up that works in lieu of an MSF completion card. If they have no riding experience, we do not give them the memo, hence the "may authorize to ride" discretion part.

The Commander briefs you because it is a high risk activity, but at no point does he "approve" you to ride. He only ensures you have done the proper training IAW DoD requirements.

I mean, whats to say a Commander instituting a rule that if a rider does something deserving of punitive action, he's going to disapprove of you riding off base as punishment? What about not letting you drive a car off base? I think you may be interpreting the rules wrong.

Nah, I think you are ignoring more basic information in the AFI.

1.1.2. Applicability:

1.1.2.1. All AF military personnel any time, on or off a Department of Defense (DoD) installation.

1.3 Responsibilities:

1.3.4. Commanders and functional managers below wing level will:

1.3.4.2. Take actions as needed to intervene when unsafe behaviors are identified. Direct

problem drivers and at-risk personnel to attend driver improvement training. (T-0)

1.3.4.7. Ensure personnel complete training as required by this AFI. Take appropriate administrative or disciplinary actions for personnel who fail to attend scheduled training including restricting operation of the motorcycle for military personnel. (T-2)

Read that however you like, but I don't think I am interpreting the rules wrong at all. It is fairly straight forward. I won't get hung up on the "approval" piece as you are right that a commander has little leeway to keep you from riding as long as you have met the rules and are operating safely and IAW the AFI...but you can be restricted from riding by your commander and your original post that it only applies on base or that a commander cannot effect your motorcycle riding off base is still not correct.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Herk Driver

[xaarman]

Eh, it can be interpolated that the rule applies to all military, but if you blow off training, the scope of the consequence (restriction of riding) isn't listed.

It's just 100% unenforceable to say SSgt Smith, you can't take your motorcycle from your off base house to the 7-11 to the end of the block. If my Commander came to me with this issue, I would recommend administrative documentation (LoC/LoR/escalating) before I recommended an unenforceable action.

BUT I will say did glance over that part, and in my current organization of 80+ riders, no one has pressed to test this far in the weeds thank god.

Edited December 13, 2014 by xaarman

[Herk Driver]

Why do you keep falling back to 100% unenforceable? What is unenforceable about it?

I disagree that anything above is interpolated. The scope of the "restriction" isn't spelled out so CC's have some discretion, IMHO.

In your SSgt example, I get that he can physically still take out the bike but you know as well as I do that at some point, he will be observed, get a ticket or otherwise do something to get caught violating the restriction. Difficult? Yes. Unenforceable? No.

Of course, admin action of some type could be taken as well to document and show escalating actions.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Herk Driver

[xaarman]

It's as enforceable as telling a fat airman no candy.

Unless the Commander or First Sergeant catches them in the act, it's nothing more then a he said/she said debacle. They aren't breaking any off base laws, SFS won't care (it's not a criminal issue), and nobody has time to micromanage someone like that.

[Herk Driver]

I added to the previous post before I saw your response, but I would argue that you would be surprised with what and who will provide info on issues like this. With the advent of those pesky cell phones and cell phone cameras/ videos it is much easier to get corroboration that breaks the he said/ she said problem down.

People tend to do really stupid things when told they can't do something. Telling the fat kid to not eat candy is easily violated in private; motorcycles are driven on roadways that are very public.

[xaarman]

I don't think we're going to agree, so here's to a shitty winter and waiting for that riding season to start up again. Here's a funny video of a guy explaining how to change his oil:

[Homestar]

I was perusing the AMC Mobility magazine this week and noticed that there were 3 motorcycle fatalities in 2014 and 3 motor vehicle fatalities (one involved a GOV--a HUMVEE I think). Driving to work in your POV is still the most dangerous thing you do all day. Two of the motorcycle fatalities in AMC involved excessive speed and/or alcohol--in which case my sympathy factor goes down a bit. If you want to race, prep the bike properly and take it to the track.

Only 1 class A flying mishap, which is great news.

PMV 2 Whl

· Member was speeding on a highway under the influence of alcohol and struck a vehicle that was turning across his path of travel.
· Member was speeding, lost control on a highway exit ramp, and struck a guard rail.
· Member struck another vehicle that was turning into the path of travel.

PMV 4 Whl
· Member was driving during a snow storm, lost control, spun, and was struck broadside by a large truck.
· Member was towing a trailer, lost control, left the roadway and rolled several times.
Sports and Recreation/Miscellaneous
· Member jumped into a mountain pool and went over a waterfall.
· Member was a passenger in a commercial vehicle; operator had a seizure and struck a guardrail.
· Member was pulling a mower backwards up a slope, slipped and pulled mower over foot (permanent partial).

Government Motor Vehicle

Member was run over by a HMMWV during an exercise.

edit to add linky

https://www.amc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123432071

Edited December 13, 2014 by Homestar

[busdriver]

Thread revival!  I got back into bikes this winter after a 15 year hiatus. 

Street bike?  Check. 

Dirt bike?  Check.

Should have done it years ago, didn't realize how much I've missed it.

[M2]

I sold the Repsol last summer.  Just wasn't riding it, and felt it deserved to be ridden.  It was tough to hand over the keys, but she's getting the attention she deserves.  The Jeep has proven to be an effective replacement in obtaining the thrill of the great outdoors with a slightly less level of risk.  Plus, having heat, music, room for three passengers (the family) and most importantly the ability to put the top back up when it rains, and having four wheels on wet roads, is comforting.  I'm getting too damn hold to risk pneumonia!  

I still have a 1991 Honda ST1100 in the garage, it's been in hibernation for many years as well but I hope one day to make a project out of getting it back on the road.  That is the bike I bought when I pinned on first lieutenant and rode all over Europe, it would take a lot for me to give up that one!  The CBR was a mid-life crisis retirement gift to myself, so it was easier to let go although it's always heartbreaking to get rid of a great bike!

Cheers!  M2

[EvilEagle]

Down to one bike now.  ('07 BMW GS1200ADV) and I just ride it on long trips.  I did Nova Scotia a few years ago, 2017 I did 15 countries in Europe and next year is my retirement trip - South America down to Ushuaia. 

 

Keep the greasy side down my friends!

[xaarman]

On 2/19/2019 at 9:27 PM, busdriver said:

Thread revival!  I got back into bikes this winter after a 15 year hiatus. 

Street bike?  Check. 

Dirt bike?  Check.

Should have done it years ago, didn't realize how much I've missed it.

I mean, what a tease. Whatcha get?

[busdriver]

10 minutes ago, xaarman said:

I mean, what a tease. Whatcha get?

2018 SV650 and a 2002 DRZ400E.

You can make anything street legal in Arizona, so I'm building the DRZ into a sort of adventure dirtbike.  The roads here are shit, so you do what you have to.

[xaarman]

The SV is a great bike, I used to have a second gen and miss it dearly. Parts were cheap, engine was torquey, and it was a blast to flick around. 

I’ve only heard about the DRZ, never owned one. They are like Jeeps, endlessly mod-able and are great at off-road.

 

Edit: grammar

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by xaarman

[17D_guy]

Sold my bike when moving to San Antonio because the drivers here are garbage.  Always wanted a SV.

[busdriver]

Decent used SVs are basically always in the 3000ish range.  Do it.

[Init2]

How many of you guys ride, what do you ride, and what spots do you prefer a weekend ride?

[filthy_liar]

'03 anniversary v-rod.  The only spots I prefer on the weekend are spots that it doesn't drip oil in the garage.  I need to ride more.  My next planned ride is the dragon's tail.  I did Sturgis 04 and 05. It was fun - if you've not been, definitely do the Buffalo Chip experience.  Bring a tent, your bike, and a shitload of alcohol.  You're going to need it.